This would be like a person in a rifter QQing because they can't take out a titan

Seeing as I think that HAV's need a buff. Though, are not nearly as bad as people think it is. I don't think this analogy. Is proper in this situation.

Then youre not a real tanker. Properly fitted Maddys take 10 shots in a row from ishukone assault FGs, but my guess at the most you can take 6 right? Stop asking for a crutch because you don't know how to fit tanks. Not that proto tanks will be any better, likely the marauders will simply be brought back, and they were BARELY better than STD tanks while costing an insane amount of isk. Learn to fit & use a STD tank or you have no future in tanking, believe me.

dude proto av destroys vehicals no matter what fit you have on

okay why nerf Armor tanks when you could buff shield tanks?

You can dumb it down all you want... once you actually drive a tank.

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

List of things that need to be fixed:

• Invisible swarms
• Forge gun damage at range
• Vehicle and turret price

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Notes*: I see the need to nerf things like the damage at range of Forge guns, as well as reduce the price of Tank turrets. As well as several other small buffs, that when added up will be a big bonus. The issue I have is that people think that HAV's need to be almost indestructible and that they feel that you should be able to go into the middle of the map and have it easy. Things need to be improved, but many of the more vocal tankers are being way to unreasonable.

I don't remember... do you tank?

If not... who are you to tell us how to tank?

The role does exist. It denotes players that go beyond getting a proto swarm and AV grenades. We are the players that go through the millins of ISk it takes to get 15% more damage on our Swarms by putting SP into the skill, not just by damage mods. We are the guys that skill into proto side arms, then go through all the skills to add extra damage and improve accuracy. We are the guys that skill into proto Minmatar racial assault suit, just to get more ammo in our side arm. We are the guys that get proto Swarms before we get a standard AR.

We exist. Though... Not officially.

Don't you run around with a standard plasma cannon? Wouldn't really consider that being a dedicated AV player more of a nuisance than anything lol

Do you even tank bro?

Read post #66

So no. When you wrote this post.. no

You say that and yet, I see 80% of the tanks I destroy doing very obvious things wrong. The ones I struggle to destroy are usually doing one of the above mentioned tactics and doing it awesomely.

I just see HAV's standing in very bad places doing really stupid stuff, ALL THE TIME!

You know what POTHEAD? If you think you know how to fit tanks better than me, I ******* dare you to a 1v1 in tanks.

No sh*t i FG are weak to armor, thats the reason i was using it as an example you r3tard. And I've always said shield reppers need to be buffed to the point of armor reppers. You're also definitely not a real tanker since youre using gunnlogis, and your pathetic LLAV is gonna be nerfed soon. And since your asking for proto tanks damn right your asking for a crutch. I have never said tanks are OP, the problem is garbage tankers are asking for OP tanks, which will just make tanks eventually get nerfed even harder. Try me b*tch i was tanking before you even started, and i quit at the beginning of this build because at first they were nerfed hard, but then CCP buffed them, so now I've got 84 officer FGs w/ dual complex damage mods, Proto AV nades and proto nanohives with your name on them.

oto AV nades and proto nanohives with your name on them.

So then you're soloing militia tanks, and very basically fit Madrugars and Gunnlogis.

I'll space it out, too.

You can lolAVstomp the Sica, Soma, and base-HP Madrugars and Gunnlogis. I doubt you can solo tankers that have an idea of what you're doing. You shouldn't be able to solo a tank, anyway. But that's not fair, you say. It's entirely fair. SP requirements for AV are a pittance against SP requirements for an effective tank. What's your SP pool, 4-5mil? That's enough for a Duvolle, spec'd to the gills. If we don't have armor and shield skills maxed, we're losing on some defenses. But so do suits, you say. The only thing that tracks infantry currently are the tracking locus grenades, which were nerfed down to one carried. So to use those effectively, you need to be tethered to a supply depot.

It's basically the same with AV grenades. They don't require any forethought. Just throw, and profit.

It's easy to solo crap fit tanks. Much harder to destroy two or more communicating and working together. I had a Gunnlogi survive PRO AV and two orbs in a match. Why? Because I'm not stupid. As far as I can remember, I've seen you on the other side once. You had four tankers and 3 other guys with PRO AV. I had two other people in my squad, one with a tank. Were circumstances equal, my squad would've won the tank/AV war.

Does it matter? I used my own tactics and did it like a boss and I barely knew how to turn the first half if the games I played LOL

If anything. I will add more to this. What I have written down so far us good.

Bring that "my first tank" to a PC fight. or better yet, bring a 2.5 mil kitted out one that gets 4 shotted by some douchebag who's out of render range while your directional indicator is lying to you about where the hits are coming from.

"I only used this for a day against people who for the most part, either could not give one less of a ****, or were crap anyways. Y'all need to stop crying that you get killed in your tanks that cost 5x more than mine(for minimal survivability increases) did and required skilling into, which were lost in real fights."

On the topic of tactics; pilots should work together more. By this I mean that there are remote reps that I never see being used. If we were to support our heavy armor with heavy reps and transfers then AV wouldn't be such a big problem. An HAV moving slowly with support from LAVs and other HAVs should be able to tank AV and defend themselves but pilots use our vehicles like that are supposed to be indestructible. I would love to see some spider tanking HAVs rolling across the battlefield but no one seems to do it for whatever reason so our HAV look anemic and under powered. We need logistic HAVs to support glass cannon vehicles, I believe that CCP wanted us to use them like that. I have never met a heavy vehicle that didn't need logistics for support. Tactics would go a long way if we would develop a doctrine of support.

your a jerk.......everything op said is a good refresher....... people like you are whats wrong with this world....go be a jerk at your job and lets see how long it takes for you to get fired.....

u blow up my [ I consider all my precious >:) ] supply depot and ur on my team ill ram my lav into u -_-

I don't need to drive a tank to know what tactics they can use to make it harder to destroy them.

Yeah, I am audacious, also bold, venturesome and resolute.

Also, it is painful to watch people not do something right when I know what could be done better. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. You never know till you speak up. If you don't let yourself be heard, you will never amount to anything.

I'd rather be audacious and loud, then meek and silent!