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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Aythadis Smith
The Generals EoN.
81
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Posted - 2013.07.21 08:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
City map. Charlie near the CRU, and Alpha, and Bravo.
Near the CRU is a small tunnel. Some broken pipes.
If you walk past them, life is good. Sprinting past them and you get hung up. Try your selves |
Spec Ops Cipher
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
269
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Posted - 2013.07.21 09:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Quick update with some more findings.
Query: How much room does a Scout need to sprint through a gap? Test Method: Used a compact nanohive (2.0m radius) to judge distance between two LAVs and steadily increased the gap width until the Scout could successfully pass through undetered.
Results: 1.0m clearance is required for sprinting th as little as a 0.5m space for walking. With this we can assume adequate space needed, when sprinting, on either side, is a 25% increase approximately. Sprinting causing a noticable increase in collision occurrences and, if space is tight, will cause the player to 'glide' along collision edges or outright stop if approached head on.
When I was doing tests on this, I worked out the smallest gap you can walk through and not sprint through is 0.7m. I used a similar setup to the videos and used trigonometry to work out the size of the gap. Obviously there are small errors, especially because the ingame way of measuring distances doesn't show anything smaller than changes of 1m, so I had to setup the triangle using multiples of metres.
Anyway it seems like this:
You can only walk through at 0.5m You can walk and sprint through at 0.7m +
All are approximations of course, but those are just my findings. |
Chilled Pill
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
117
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Posted - 2013.07.22 09:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
This makes me really sad for us scouts. |
KingBabar
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
922
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Posted - 2013.07.22 10:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bump.
As I see it, this is close to a deal breaking "tweak" to the game.
I'll keep bumping and posting until we get some sort of official reply from CCP.
This is a very important issue, it kind of messes with the basic class structure of Dust.
- And I just specced into scout suits..... |
Darth PHIbot
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
5
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Not surprised in the slightest. |
Protected Void
STRONG-ARMED BANDITS
58
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
This fits in with my experience - most moderately competent players seem to have an easier time hitting me now when I'm running/weaving for cover than before.
Also, getting stuck on the terrain is a constant annoyance, and leads to at least 40% of my deaths. As a low EHP scout, I can't afford to stand still even a tiny fraction of a second when under fire. Play as scout for a couple of matches and try to run through narrow passages, and it becomes bleeding obvious that you get caught on or blocked by the terrain more often when sprinting.
Also, it's extremely annoying when the visible terrain models look very much like they should be possible to pass through or under, but just plainly blocks you, sprinting or not. A particularly annoying example is in Ashland: There's a rooftop by the CRU closest to the D objective. On the top of that rooftop, a couple of pipes comes out of the roof vertically and changes to horizontal just below the height of an upright clone. In real life, one would be able to bow one's head and pass under them. Even if I crouch, I can't move under them. I'm just blocked by an invisible wall. |
Orion Vahid
DUST University Ivy League
84
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Interesting...even as a Heavy I sometimes felt if that's true. Even if everything is going to **** I attempt to run for cover, I take damage at an insane rate and probably die. If I turn around and shoot however, I can probably take out 1 or 2 guys before going down and it's needless to say I take damage much slower. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
391
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Posted - 2013.07.22 22:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
KingBabar wrote:- And I just specced into scout suits..... Internal Error. If you stick with it, which you shouldn't. You'll find folks in the same boat here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=90055 |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2195
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Posted - 2013.07.23 00:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Shotty youshould check ojt my other thread CCP: Very Important that you read this
Think youmight like what you see |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2196
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Posted - 2013.07.23 01:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Updated Report:
Test was conducted with Mr Musturd as the potential scout victim.
Test consisted of using nanohives spread out five meters apart to form a 25 meter track for scout to run. Subject was then fired upon with a Tactical Assault Rifle while aiming down the sight. Subject was asked to walk for preliminary test, then to sprint. Test was conducted at a variety of ranges and angles.
Results proving hitbox expansion were negative, as firing to the sides of the scout from a forward angle showed no width expansion what so ever and even shots that would be considered 'grazing' do not register. Firing at the scout from a side angle however revealed what could be considered 'hit box expansion' to the untrained eye.
I believe what is actually occuring is that the hit box lag (the hit box being behind the subject, rather than directlt on him) is actually increasing with speed. Hit markers were not showing when firing directly on the target as he sprinted, but 2-3m behind him proved best results. The distance of the hit box correlates to the speed of the model, with higher speeds expanding the gap between the model and hit box rather than the hit box itself.
Because of this, there is more leeway for inaccurate shooters who arent turning fast enough to land shots directly on target but BEHIND the person, or even doing so intentionally. Turning corners also shows this to be true, especially at high speeds.
This, unfortunately, is something entirely unavoidable as it is associated directly to the latency - not of the client, but the server providing the information.
Feel free to make comments, but the only way to solve this issue is to somehow decrease the gap between model and hit box when moving at high speeds. While it may do more harm than good for the game asa whole, the only way I can see of doing this is to actually place the hit box INFRONT of the model when moving at higher speeds.
tl;dr - The faster you go, the farther your hit box lags behind you. When that occurs, the shooter doesnt have to aim directly on you and if he did so he would miss because your hitbox isnt able to catch up with your model.
IMPORTANT EDIT: This DOES NOT answer the increased collision detection as mentioned in the original post. I feel this is anentirely separate issue. |
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
400
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Posted - 2013.07.23 20:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Updated Report: Test was conducted with Mr Musturd as the potential scout victim. Hi Aeon,
These aren't the results I had expected to see, but I cannot argue with your method. Your test results explain why we're taking damage after reaching cover. Thanks for clearing this up, and great job once again.
So the sudden decrease to scout survivability in 1.2 resulted primarily from a performance improvement that boosted hit detection, right? I doubt CCP will rollback a performance improvement, so I wonder if they'll give us back our smaller hitbox now .
- Shotty GoBang |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2204
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 03:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Updated Report: Test was conducted with Mr Musturd as the potential scout victim. Hi Aeon, These aren't the results I had expected to see, but I cannot argue with your method. Your test results explain why we're taking damage after reaching cover. Thanks for clearing this up, and great job once again. So the sudden decrease to scout survivability in 1.2 resulted primarily from a performance improvement that boosted hit detection, right? I doubt CCP will rollback a performance improvement, so I wonder if they'll give us back our smaller hitbox now . - Shotty GoBang
As Ive previously explained to others outside ofthis forum I have no idea how it could be fixed because all its really doing is rewarding players who arent aiming on target, but in all actuality missing by a degree associated with how fastthe target is moving. Basically, youre hitting because youre missing, whether that be intentional or not. Ive noticed a massivve jump in my KDR since discovering this though, landing 5-6 KDR games rather frequently. |
Captain Wontubulous
Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
23
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Posted - 2013.07.24 04:20:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shrapnels wrote:I hope you CLUELESS idots realize that ALL Hit-Boxes were made to be ALL the SAME NO Matter what Suit your using now. CCP did this with the patch-release of the Commando suit.
ALL hit-boxes are NOW the Same and the Standard is the Assault suit or "Medium" category in the Market tab.
The Heavy suit had there Hit-boxes REDUCED.
The Light suit had them INCREASED.
So when I added the sprint speed boosts to my logi and he suddenly started clipping corners he never clipped before and became easier to hit was that because they decreased the heavy hit box or increased the scout hit box? It also gets worse the faster you go. I moved the boost up from standard to advanced and it became even more apparent. Also probably because of the standard hit boxes right? As my speed goes up I gain the hit box of a vehicle or something? |
pseudosnipre
DUST University Ivy League
85
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 05:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
Captain Wontubulous wrote:Shrapnels wrote:I hope you CLUELESS idots realize that ALL Hit-Boxes were made to be ALL the SAME NO Matter what Suit your using now. CCP did this with the patch-release of the Commando suit.
ALL hit-boxes are NOW the Same and the Standard is the Assault suit or "Medium" category in the Market tab.
The Heavy suit had there Hit-boxes REDUCED.
The Light suit had them INCREASED. So when I added the sprint speed boosts to my logi and he suddenly started clipping corners he never clipped before and became easier to hit was that because they decreased the heavy hit box or increased the scout hit box? It also gets worse the faster you go. I moved the boost up from standard to advanced and it became even more apparent. Also probably because of the standard hit boxes right? As my speed goes up I gain the hit box of a vehicle or something? In a word, yes.
Your physical dimensions as seen by the server increase linearly with instantaneous ground speed, hence the corner clipping. |
pseudosnipre
DUST University Ivy League
85
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 05:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Updated Report: Test was conducted with Mr Musturd as the potential scout victim. Hi Aeon, These aren't the results I had expected to see, but I cannot argue with your method. Your test results explain why we're taking damage after reaching cover. Thanks for clearing this up, and great job once again. So the sudden decrease to scout survivability in 1.2 resulted primarily from a performance improvement that boosted hit detection, right? I doubt CCP will rollback a performance improvement, so I wonder if they'll give us back our smaller hitbox now . - Shotty GoBang As Ive previously explained to others outside ofthis forum I have no idea how it could be fixed because all its really doing is rewarding players who arent aiming on target, but in all actuality missing by a degree associated with how fastthe target is moving. Basically, youre hitting because youre missing, whether that be intentional or not. Ive noticed a massivve jump in my KDR since discovering this though, landing 5-6 KDR games rather frequently. Im assuming your kdr has improved due to fewer deaths and not more kills, yes?
A scout's got to know his limitations! |
OZAROW
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
223
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 05:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Shrapnels wrote:I hope you CLUELESS idots realize that ALL Hit-Boxes were made to be ALL the SAME NO Matter what Suit your using now. CCP did this with the patch-release of the Commando suit.
ALL hit-boxes are NOW the Same and the Standard is the Assault suit or "Medium" category in the Market tab.
The Heavy suit had there Hit-boxes REDUCED.
The Light suit had them INCREASED. Ummmm after bullets kinda turned corners to hit me I figured as much lol |
OZAROW
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
223
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 05:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Updated Report: Test was conducted with Mr Musturd as the potential scout victim. Hi Aeon, These aren't the results I had expected to see, but I cannot argue with your method. Your test results explain why we're taking damage after reaching cover. Thanks for clearing this up, and great job once again. So the sudden decrease to scout survivability in 1.2 resulted primarily from a performance improvement that boosted hit detection, right? I doubt CCP will rollback a performance improvement, so I wonder if they'll give us back our smaller hitbox now . - Shotty GoBang As Ive previously explained to others outside ofthis forum I have no idea how it could be fixed because all its really doing is rewarding players who arent aiming on target, but in all actuality missing by a degree associated with how fastthe target is moving. Basically, youre hitting because youre missing, whether that be intentional or not. Ive noticed a massivve jump in my KDR since discovering this though, landing 5-6 KDR games rather frequently. Noticed this the first day of 1.2 but wasn't nearly as clever as to figure out why! Dude your awesome smart, I hope they fix this along with all the other problems you've pointed out ; like stamina an melee nerfs |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
51
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 06:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Good SCIENCE guys.
This really needs the Devs to investigate though. They have many more tools at their disposal than we mere mortals. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
400
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 12:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ive noticed a massivve jump in my KDR since discovering this though, landing 5-6 KDR games rather frequently. Hey Aeon, When we last spoke (July 8th), you had switched from Scout to medium frame following the initial Uprising nerf(s). Are you back to running Scout? - Shotty GoBang
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
400
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 12:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
pseudosnipre wrote: Im assuming your kdr has improved due to fewer deaths and not more kills, yes? A scout's got to know his limitations!
I assume his KDR's improving because he's aiming behind moving targets rather than leading them.
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pseudosnipre
DUST University Ivy League
87
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 13:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:pseudosnipre wrote: Im assuming your kdr has improved due to fewer deaths and not more kills, yes? A scout's got to know his limitations!
I assume his KDR's improving because he's aiming behind moving targets rather than leading them. Perhaps shotgin is not so broken after all! Will investigate tonight... |
Knight Soiaire
Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1404
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Even if this doesn't prove that Hitboxes are ****** up, it does give a reason as to why Scouts are getting caught on so many Objects/Players as they try make their getaway. |
Lucifalic
Baked n Loaded
13
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:15:00 -
[53] - Quote
+ 1 and really great work on these tests. Like others I experienced a serious decline in my scouting survivability and hit detection with my shotty. I was aiming at people but I'll try aiming a bit behind and see if the large holes in their body appear. I hope they sort this out. With speed being my preferred play style I feel pretty crippled in 1.2 but have a hard time leaving my hard level scout. |
Decasor
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
16
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lucifalic wrote:+ 1 and really great work on these tests. Like others I experienced a serious decline in my scouting survivability and hit detection with my shotty. I was aiming at people but I'll try aiming a bit behind and see if the large holes in their body appear. I hope they sort this out. With speed being my preferred play style I feel pretty crippled in 1.2 but have a hard time leaving my hard level scout.
I find with the shotty, if the target is moving even a little bit, my best shots are with quite a bit of lead. If strafing, aim for the side of the body that is moving, as in the very edge. If running maybe a bodies width. And of course this is almost point blank, the shotty currently has pathetic range. Still, managed a 10-1 with a shotgun my last match after a pathetic effort with sniper rifle, so not all is lost. Its very random match to match though. |
Decasor
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
16
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:Even if this doesn't prove that Hitboxes are ****** up, it does give a reason as to why Scouts are getting caught on so many Objects/Players as they try make their getaway.
I die more from being caught on objects than any other single cause in this game, as in it stops me escaping. Drives me insane in close quarters.
Its like a horrible nightmare of being chased by a monster while wading through mud |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2211
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:35:00 -
[56] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ive noticed a massivve jump in my KDR since discovering this though, landing 5-6 KDR games rather frequently. Hey Aeon, When we last spoke (July 8th), you had switched from Scout to medium frame following the initial Uprising nerf(s). Are you back to running Scout? - Shotty GoBang
I graduated to Assault at the beginning of Uprising because of a number of reasons.
1- Getting a working scout requires INTENSIVE skill specialization as even using basic kinetic catalyzers requires Biotic Upgrades 5. I disagree with this as it severely limits early scout builds.
2- Im convinced that there is nothing that a scout can do that someone else cant do better and have actually challenged some CPM members and other players in Skype to give examples. Minmatar Logi is far better suited for hacking, Caldari Assault far better suited for CQC etc. There are a plethora of reasons for this and one being that profile dampeners areuseless to visual marking.
3- I love the Gallente and when they announced the assault variant I fell in love.
4- Im an armor tanker at heart.
I had originally gone scout out of a tester's standpoint, playing the most skill intensive role to submit feedback as I had previously done with Heavies and Logistics when they were underpowered. However, now that the game is live, Ive focused my efforts on what I specialize in first and testing second, though I sympathize with Scouts because I understand the hardships.
Some of the ideas Ive suggested (despite them being unanimously disapproved of) was to give Scouts a specific role. Originally I suggested Cloaking be restricted to Scouts only to give them a definitely different playstyle over any other class much like Heavies and their use of Heavy Weapons/Dual Light Weapons.
Another suggestion was to reduce the resource cost on Drop Uplinks and make them Scout specific to force incentive on thought behind placement, but there are a number of difficulties with this in retrospect. A. They need to reduce their visibility to pre-uprising astheyre just too easy to find. B. Anyone who specced into them that doesnt run Scout - rather, everyone in PC - would have a conniption fit.
There are a lot kf changes to Scouts needed to make Scouts a viable class and I think a good place to start is to enforce a standpoint that precision must beat profile EVEN WHEN AIMING DOWN THE SIGHTS as theres been times where a Scout was suddenly detected by a Heavy because a Sniper looked in that general direction. Scanners need a rework as even scouts with all level five skills cant get beneath their radar (despite no one using them) from Advanced and up.
Finally, I would like to bring up homogenization of the Scouts between variants as the Gallente has some weird slot layouts between Advanced and Prototype.
Anyway, rant over. Back on the issue of hitbox/collision, Id like to remind you all that there is not an increase in hitbox size, so far as I know. There is a discrepancy with collision while sprinting that I feel needs to be ironed out but all of the issues with thehitbox are still correlating to my theory that speed = increased hitbox lag. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2211
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lucifalic wrote:+ 1 and really great work on these tests. Like others I experienced a serious decline in my scouting survivability and hit detection with my shotty. I was aiming at people but I'll try aiming a bit behind and see if the large holes in their body appear. I hope they sort this out. With speed being my preferred play style I feel pretty crippled in 1.2 but have a hard time leaving my hard level scout.
Bear in mind its on a case by case basis. Theres a lot of variables to consider.
- Target frame. A light frame will be all over the place, a heavy not so much. - Target speed. The faster they move the greater the distance their hitbox is from their model. This will change between anarmor and a shield tanker. - Latency. The server has to catch up with their actions before it sends you the information. If theres poor latency, try to predict where they WERE not where they ARE. - Understand that this only applies when they are moving perpendicularly as opposed to parallel. If theyre running away from you or toward you, just aim at their model and let the game handle the rest. - Most importantly, remember that all of these rules apply to you as well. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
1045
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Posted - 2013.07.24 18:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
Aeon's findings explain why people have been complaining about being hit and killed even after already getting behind cover but this is not an experience new to Uprising; it's something people I know have complained about as far back as Codex. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
2214
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Aeon's findings explain why people have been complaining about being hit and killed even after already getting behind cover but this is not an experience new to Uprising; it's something people I know have complained about as far back as Codex.
Its an issue that is well known in FPS games. Google 'hit box lag' and youll see some interesting articles/pictures.
The issue unique to Dust is that its pretty much the only FPS game that has hit box lag associated with variabled speed because... Well... Its the only FPS with variabled speed. I mean, sure, a game like TF2 has roles with different speed values that COULD potentially affect it but none in such a way that Dust does what with kinetic catalyzers and armor plates affecting it, or even different frames with those modules.
Butnow that I think about it.... I need to run one more test to finalize this theory.... Give me a bit guys. |
CommanderBolt
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
105
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
YES The quicksand issue!
I have been playing in my commando suit recently and I noticed it felt a few times like I was in quicksand, unable or partially slowed movement.
The one area it stuck out was on the map that has A , B and C in a line in the middle of the map. Where you can climb up on top of the roof right next to b. C has the road that goes behind it with the two turrets towards the bend in the road. I forget the name of the map. But up there just next to b on top of the roof thingy where you have the pipelines and stuff I really glitched and felt like I was stuck in quicksand.
For clarity I just looked up the map names I Am referring to the map called "Ashland" and the rooftop is just between B and the CRU behind on the way towards C that rooftop everyone likes to use. |
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