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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3282
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 19:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Because my stance here is not the point. The point is the alternatives that are available for those who support respecs. But of course, since a few of you are pressing the issue, I might as well just cave in.
Quote:What is your stance on allowing respecs after the racial scouts, heavies, and vehicles are released?
I'm starting to have second thoughts on this. Originally I was again respecs for new things like that, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have only one more respec for when all racial suits and weapons come out. But then again, that will go against what CCP stated earlier of not undoing SP choices in the foreseeable future and then people will start bitching and moaning about how CCP easily goes back on their word. This just makes it more confusing.
Quote:Why can't we question you about your stance in all this respec-thing?
That is not what I meant. You can go ask me about it elsewhere, I just felt that it detracts from the main point of this thread. But again, since some people hear want to know anyways, I might as well answer.
Quote:Players have a right to know your stake in respecs.
No you don't. Not unless I'm running for the CPM or the CSM which I can't imagine myself doing... ever. I was just being nice enough to tell you my stake in this.
Overall, I look at it from an economic and data-gathering standpoint which are the principle reasons why I am mostly against respecs. Besides, I already explained in detail why I am against respecs in general. I am not obligated to repeat myself over and over again especially since you all have the search function available for you. |
RKKR
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 19:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fair enough.
I also summed #3 why there should be another respec.
CCP's word isn't worth much for DUST514 lately isn't? AAA Shooter? lol .... it's only a fool that thinks they should keep their word on the respecs. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Another alternative to the whole respec thing is that CCP can do what they did for Eve Online and applying to Dust.
Splitting Skill Books
In Eve Online, ship skills were grouped up into generalized books like battlecruiser, battleship, etc. with minor racial prerequisites such as Amarr frigate or cruiser, or Gallente frigate, etc. Because this created problems, CCP decided to streamline the skill tree like they did with the Dust skill tree but went one step further by splitting up the generalized skill books into their racial variants and then giving the players who trained up those skill books extra SP and applied them automatically on behalf of the players.
Example:
Let's say you have Battleship Level 4 and Amarr Cruiser Level 5 and Caldari Cruiser Level 4. After the change CCP then gives you Amarr Battleship Level 4 and Caldari Battleship Level 4 because of the two racial prerequisites you trained earlier. This resulted in you gaining extra SP that was already allocated for you by CCP while at the same time you received a partial refund of the SP from skill books who had their prerequisites partially lowered.
This might work for Dust, but considering the disorganized nature of the current skill tree, that kind of makes it feel like it will take a long time to sort through. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Fair enough.
I also summed #3 why there should be another respec.
CCP's word isn't worth much for DUST514 lately isn't? AAA Shooter? lol .... it's only a fool that thinks they should keep their word on the respecs.
Yeah, to be honest with you, I think CCP needs to have a talk with their marketing team on that. |
RKKR
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
Or in other words: they should have taken their time to test a good SP-system before "releasing" the game. |
dday3six
Intrepidus XI EoN.
86
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:No you don't. Not unless I'm running for the CPM or the CSM which I can't imagine myself doing... ever. I was just being nice enough to tell you my stake in this.
Overall, I look at it from an economic and data-gathering standpoint which are the principle reasons why I am mostly against respecs. Besides, I already explained in detail why I am against respecs in general. I am not obligated to repeat myself over and over again especially since you all have the search function available for you.
When you could be motivated in part by not wanting to confront the internal moral conflict that respecs being introduced to the would induce, there exists a reasonable prospect that you have a conflict of interest in regards to respecs. That's what I feel players have a right now along with your opinions on respecs.
On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. |
dday3six
Intrepidus XI EoN.
86
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Or in other words: they should have taken their time to test a good SP-system (and the rest of the basics) before "releasing" the game.
If I had to hazard a guess I'd say Dust's development reached a point that it needed to be "released" in attempt to increase revenue potential so development could continue. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
dday3six wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:No you don't. Not unless I'm running for the CPM or the CSM which I can't imagine myself doing... ever. I was just being nice enough to tell you my stake in this.
Overall, I look at it from an economic and data-gathering standpoint which are the principle reasons why I am mostly against respecs. Besides, I already explained in detail why I am against respecs in general. I am not obligated to repeat myself over and over again especially since you all have the search function available for you. When you could be motivated in part by not wanting to confront the internal moral conflict that respecs being introduced to the would induce, there exists a reasonable prospect that you have a conflict of interest in regards to respecs. That's what I feel players have a right now along with your opinions on respecs. On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting.
5 years actually. Not 10.
Either way, there were plenty of players who quit Eve back in 2011 who were around much longer than I was and they had no problem cancelling their subscriptions. I don't care about cancelling mines should the situation ever come.
EDIT: If you want to talk about deleting accounts, well.. CCP has to really **** me off for me to do that. And many people did that back in 2011. |
RKKR
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
dday3six wrote:RKKR wrote:Or in other words: they should have taken their time to test a good SP-system (and the rest of the basics) before "releasing" the game. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say Dust's development reached a point that it needed to be "released" in attempt to increase revenue potential so development could continue.
If that would be true then I hope they have learned a lesson from it...it makes sense with all the AUR-packages...aaaah we'll never know for sure. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
RKKR wrote:dday3six wrote:RKKR wrote:Or in other words: they should have taken their time to test a good SP-system (and the rest of the basics) before "releasing" the game. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say Dust's development reached a point that it needed to be "released" in attempt to increase revenue potential so development could continue. If that would be true then I hope they have learned a lesson from it...it makes sense with all the AUR-packages...aaaah we'll never know for sure.
Just wait until the 2013 Financial Report is posted next year on CCP's corporate website.
Anyways, what do you guys think about the "splitting of the skill books" alternative? Would you be willing to let CCP allocate SP for you into new books like how Eve players experienced? |
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
668
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean).
The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean). The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that.
Racial symmetry is something I can see as a valid excuse but only core suits like Amarr Heavy, Amarr Assault, Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout. I would not support respecs just because Amarr Covert Ops just came out soon after. |
Seymor Krelborn
DUST University Ivy League
150
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
ive been playing since January have had the chance for 2 respect and didn't take advantage of the 2nd although I should have because I have misplaced sp but I thought ef it... will be of use at some point maybe specificly dropsuit command to 5 the other I had no choice about it was forced on all of us....im against respecs..... with 1 exception
new players should get 1 respec like an inventory item to be used at the time of their choosing kind of like the way eve pilots get a neural remap once a year but this would be a one time thing and perhaps shouldn't even be unlocked till they hit like 3 or 4 mil sp... I think that would be a good compromise... |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
669
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean). The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that. Racial symmetry is something I can see as a valid excuse but only core suits like Amarr Heavy, Amarr Assault, Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout. I would not support respecs just because Amarr Covert Ops just came out soon after. I'd say anything that gets a racial variant allows a relocation of already spent SP from one variant to another, one time per char and limited only to the specific skills and their prerequisites.
Future generations of players won't care about what we'd view as "core" today so i can't see how we can justify denying them something that we already got for the very same reasons. |
Th3rdSun
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
415
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
This game doesn't have even half of the assets,i.e. weapons and dropsuits,and with the lack of assets it's impossible to have the game properly balanced,thus,respecs/reallocations are an absolute necessity.
Too much nerfing and buffing for there not be be any respecs. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War
2236
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
Orin Issa wrote:Two things I noticed about those not supporting respecs
1. Played since at least beginning of open beta where they got the chance to make their mistakes and then were given two respecs upon release of Uprising to fix them.
2. All of the dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles they want are already in the game. I'll admit, I'm #1, but none of the dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles I want are in game yet.
Where's my pilot suit and minmatar fighter with autocannons? |
Skyhound Solbrave
Rough Riders..
148
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
I feel like people completely ignore the other side of the pro-respec crowd. The people who only want to use their respecs for the current Flavor of the Month. I highly doubt they are as few as people say they are and I'm convinces that's the major reason people want respecs. |
RKKR
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
I'm not sure Maken Tosch if I understand your option completely, I'm a EVE noob and I still think DUST is better off with some more thinkering and testing, but ooh well...I'm actually starting to not care anymore...seems you feel that way too? Doesn't sound good eh?
Skyhound Solbrave wrote:I feel like people completely ignore the other side of the pro-respec crowd. The people who only want to use their respecs for the current Flavor of the Month. I highly doubt they are as few as people say they are and I'm convinces that's the major reason people want respecs.
That's if you won't limit the respecs in any way of the other, noone said it doesn't have to have any consquences. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3286
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean). The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that. Racial symmetry is something I can see as a valid excuse but only core suits like Amarr Heavy, Amarr Assault, Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout. I would not support respecs just because Amarr Covert Ops just came out soon after. I'd say anything that gets a racial variant allows a relocation of already spent SP from one variant to another, one time per char and limited only to the specific skills and their prerequisites. Future generations of players won't care about what we'd view as "core" today so i can't see how we can justify denying them something that we already got for the very same reasons.
I'm starting to warm up to this idea. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3286
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
RKKR wrote:I'm not sure Maken Tosch if I understand your option completely, I'm a EVE noob and I still think DUST is better off with some more thinkering and testing, but ooh well...I'm actually starting to not care anymore...seems you feel that way too? Doesn't sound good eh? Skyhound Solbrave wrote:I feel like people completely ignore the other side of the pro-respec crowd. The people who only want to use their respecs for the current Flavor of the Month. I highly doubt they are as few as people say they are and I'm convinces that's the major reason people want respecs. That's if you won't limit the respecs in any way of the other, noone said it doesn't have to have any consquences.
If you're talking about the 'skill splitting' I mentioned, it's not that hard to understand. But since you said you're an Eve Noob you probably weren't around when the skill tree in Eve got completely overhauled. CCP does have a blog about it on their community website.
Community.EveOnline.com |
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
670
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 22:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Skyhound Solbrave wrote:I feel like people completely ignore the other side of the pro-respec crowd. The people who only want to use their respecs for the current Flavor of the Month. I highly doubt they are as few as people say they are and I'm convinces that's the major reason people want respecs. Could very well be...or not.
Anyway, i'm not going to pass judgement upon a whole swath of the player base just because some of them might or might not be entirely honest about their motivation.
What counts is if they have objectively good arguments in favor of their position and sound replies to arguments against it. The person behind the argument and his motivation should not be relevant in the first place. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
408
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 22:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Orin Issa wrote:Two things I noticed about those not supporting respecs
1. Played since at least beginning of open beta where they got the chance to make their mistakes and then were given two respecs upon release of Uprising to fix them.
2. All of the dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles they want are already in the game. I'll admit, I'm #1, but none of the dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles I want are in game yet. Where's my pilot suit and minmatar fighter with autocannons?
For these, save your SP.
There are no variants of this content in game.
Any content that is added should be added only when all Racial Variants can be added as one package. This would eliminate the need to allow respecs for content added under these Expansions.
Current classes and Roles of Vehicles and Dropsuits, as well as some weapons do not have all Racial Variants, thus warranting a respec for at least the respective skill lines where missing Racial Variants are possibly effected. (Heavy Frames, Light Frames, LAVs, HAVs, and Dropships.)
I don't even know if I would include weapons in this. Possibly on a case by case basis. Respecs for weapons open the door to FOTM abuse which is prevalent mostly in Weaponry. |
KING SALASI
MAJOR DISTRIBUTION
105
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 22:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
I would like respecs cuz the game gets boring in it's current state. That's what made mag so fun besides the 256 people on one map. You never stuck in one class. You could respec and try out diff things. Dust the 16 vs 16 is lame. I wish the mag community would leave dust and come back to mag.
Or sony make mag 2 leave dust as an expansion for the eve players. |
TEBOW BAGGINS
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
733
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 22:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
not that i care much about the subject but they should give us 2 nonrollover respecs each 12 months, if you F those up u have to wait til next year.. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
670
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 22:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:For these, save your SP.
There are no variants of this content in game.
Any content that is added should be added only when all Racial Variants can be added as one package. This would eliminate the need to allow respecs for content added under these Expansions.
Current classes and Roles of Vehicles and Dropsuits, as well as some weapons do not have all Racial Variants, thus warranting a respec for at least the respective skill lines where missing Racial Variants are possibly effected. (Heavy Frames, Light Frames, LAVs, HAVs, and Dropships.)
I don't even know if I would include weapons in this. Possibly on a case by case basis. Respecs for weapons open the door to FOTM abuse which is prevalent mostly in Weaponry. This. "fix the issue instead of adding respec"
We shouldn't ask for respecs to abandon whatever is perceived as "hit with the nerf bat" but demand better balancing strategies instead so that items don't get hit too hard in the first place.
We shouldn't ask for respecs to get into our preferred racial variant but instead demand fully symmetric content releases so that no one is left out in the first place. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3288
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 23:50:00 -
[56] - Quote
I like to remind everyone here that Eve Online has all the core racial ship classes it needs and those ships still get rebalanced every now and then along with their respective modules. Yet they haven't received a single respec. So far this has not caused any problems with Eve and very little (if any) players ever complained about it nor feel that they needed a respec. This is because the core content is already there and much of the game's core mechanics have been fixed.
One more thing I need to emphasize here is that respecs will not fix core issues. You can put unlimited respecs all you want but the game will still be crap because:
1. Hit Detection hasn't been resolved. 2. Disconnects are still prevalent. 3. Weapons are still unbalanced. 4. Glitches are all over the place.
Even with the respecs, the core issues alone will still drive most players away. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3289
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 00:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
I made an update to the OP with the recommended alternatives. What do you all think of the Neural Remap and/or skill splitting idea?
If the game master is ok with this, can you please move this thread over to the feedback section of the forums? I feel this thread and its discussion is starting to feel like it belongs there. |
KING SALASI
MAJOR DISTRIBUTION
106
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 00:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I like to remind everyone here that Eve Online has all the core racial ship classes it needs and those ships still get rebalanced every now and then along with their respective modules. Yet they haven't received a single respec. So far this has not caused any problems with Eve and very little (if any) players ever complained about it nor feel that they needed a respec. This is because the core content is already there and much of the game's core mechanics have been fixed.
One more thing I need to emphasize here is that respecs will not fix core issues. You can put unlimited respecs all you want but the game will still be crap because:
1. Hit Detection hasn't been resolved. 2. Disconnects are still prevalent. 3. Weapons are still unbalanced. 4. Glitches are all over the place.
Even with the respecs, the core issues alone will still drive most players away.
Eve is bad example the system they use is minutes,hours, days, weeks, and months. So its easy to skill into something in Eve not dust. We grind for SP with limited game modes with no PVE. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3290
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 00:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
KING SALASI wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I like to remind everyone here that Eve Online has all the core racial ship classes it needs and those ships still get rebalanced every now and then along with their respective modules. Yet they haven't received a single respec. So far this has not caused any problems with Eve and very little (if any) players ever complained about it nor feel that they needed a respec. This is because the core content is already there and much of the game's core mechanics have been fixed.
One more thing I need to emphasize here is that respecs will not fix core issues. You can put unlimited respecs all you want but the game will still be crap because:
1. Hit Detection hasn't been resolved. 2. Disconnects are still prevalent. 3. Weapons are still unbalanced. 4. Glitches are all over the place.
Even with the respecs, the core issues alone will still drive most players away. Eve is bad example the system they use is minutes,hours, days, weeks, and months. So its easy to skill into something in Eve not dust. We grind for SP with limited game modes with no PVE.
That still doesn't change the fact that putting in a respec will not fix the core issues. |
Jastad
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
45
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 01:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Maken Dust is an FPS, not a MMRPG. This alone explain a lot of things.
in Dust you can only do one think: Kill or be killed, no turning back.If you build a class you want, that you play and find fun with your play style and then all change and that class isn't viable anymore? Let's make a quick example on mi own.
i Choose to be an Amarr Logi and in my proto suit i use ( from the first deploy of Uprising) the Flylock, simply because with my low PG i can fit my damn SMG. when the flylock get's nerfed to hell (only the pro to need to be look at) my build is broken and maybe not usefull anymore ( for example)
Let's add another thing, the FOTM.
Right now the only FOTM were the VIZIAM pre up- the Tac and now the fly. You know that no one need a respec to take a weap but need simply to make 500.000 sp to get straight to proto lvl. And when the nerf hammer hit they simply roll back to their primary weapon.
With 1 respec at year if easy minded people change all their skill tree to follow the FOTM, when it get's nerfed or other things buffed,they wont be able to change their play style for a year. Next time they won't do the same |
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