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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3275
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 17:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Over the course of 12 calendar months I have been observing the folks around here on the forums to see why so many of them have posted constant requests for an optional respec system. During that time I have noticed that there are two sides of these supporters.
First Side: Misplaced SP
This is a very common one, but not as common as the other one. These people say that they have misspent their available SP into skills that didn't work out for them and thus feel that they should be allowed to rearrange the few SP they misplaced into other skills they are interested in. The opponents of this would say that choices need to have meaning and that requires accepting permanent consequences of those choices whether you failed to do your research or not. I am among those who against respeccing over the excuse of missplaced SP mainly because we are operating under the rules of New Eden that have been established for ten years already.
However, there is one compromise I found in regards to this. I thought about it and figured this may be a proper solution.
Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86041&find=unread
Major Lee High wrote: Skillback Booster (3 days) - Fits into Passive Booster slot. Returns ~300,000 sp and only one skill can have it on at a time, as long as there are no skills that depend on it. You can't use the skill and lose it's bonuses once its active. If the booster timer expires before the skill points are returned, you lose all remaining skill points for that skill. Passive SP gains are disabled while this booster is active.
I find this to be completely fair and something that will suit those who misplaced their SP. Please note that this is not a typical respec primarily because it is slowly pulling away SP from a skill book and you are forced to lose precious time that you would have used gaining the passive SP. It also increases the risk of potentially losing some of the SP you already gain if you misuse it. The discussion is still going on. In addition to that, CCP Cmdr Wang noted that this is being looking into.
Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1009985#post1009985
CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: [SUGGESTION] Skillback booster Update: An intriguing idea that the dev team will discuss further.
Second Side: Respecs Make It More Fun
This is the most common excuse we see. To be honest with you, this will just make the game more boring much quicker in a game that is suppose to take 7-10 years to max out. Besides, there are better alternatives to this if these people are looking for more fun. Some of the alternatives can be implemented now or within the next 2 months (considering 1.3 is content locked).
1. Better Matchmaking. 2. District owners to change the layout of the structures and installations of their districts for PC battles. 3. Trade window of sorts since we already have ISK transfers. 4. Bringing back Skirmish 1.0 - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=89032 5. Fighters and hover bikes. 6. The cloaking equipment module. This is mentioned in the Dev Blogs. 7. The bubble shield equipment module. This is mentioned in the Dev Blogs. 8. More racial variant suits, vehicles, and weapons. 9. Ability to commingle with other mercs without having to go into battle. 10. Better tutorials. 11. Basic frame suits with some minor bonuses so they won't be so useless. 12. Some basic form of PVE against rogue drones. 13. Remove the entire red zone that covers the entire terrain during factional warfare or during PC battles but keep the red zone for public matches. 14. Fix hit detection and aiming. 15. Resolve the issues of the constant disconnects.
These and more can do more than enough give players more content, more fun, and will likely help retain more players introduced to Dust 514. As you can see, the respec is not the end-all-be-all of game development. Halo doesn't have a respec system and that game is doing just fine because of the content alone.
In conclusion, there are better alternatives to those in both side of the pro-respec camp. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3275
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 17:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Orin Issa wrote:Two things I noticed about those not supporting respecs
1. Played since at least beginning of open beta where they got the chance to make their mistakes and then were given two respecs upon release of Uprising to fix them.
2. All of the dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles they want are already in the game.
1. That's because CCP made some major screwups with the skill system and were forced to give one more final respec.
2. Not sure you're trolling here. But last I checked even the anti-respec folks acknowledge the lack of dropsuits, weapons, and vehicles. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3275
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 17:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
@Dust Fiend @Orin Issa
I don't want this thread to go out of control here. This thread is meant to point out what I have observed over the 12 months about pro-respec folks. I have also been kind enough to show alternatives that could appease the camp I referenced. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3275
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 17:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Orin Issa wrote:1. Though that may be, it doesn't reflect the countless others who were not effected by any changes in the skill tree and still were given the opportunity to take advantage of a respec and now wave the "anti-respec" flag.
2. Not trolling. What do you say happens for the people who want to use the Combat Rifle, Gallente Heavy, or Amarr Dropship and have no option to? Are they supposed to just sit on their SP until who knows when?
1. The anti-respec folks are waving their anti-respec flag in regards to the constant requests for more respecs even after the deadline was passed and the last wave complete. CCP was kind enough to give us that extra respec and were just as kind to make it an option rather than force it upon us. Be happy for that at least.
2. Yes. They are suppose to be careful with the SP they gain both actively and passively. But like I said about those who misplaced their SP, there is an alternative that I mentioned if you bothered to read my post. The alternative seems fair to me. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3276
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 18:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Orin Issa wrote:I am not taking anything out of hand, I am merely wishing to constructively argue. Your alternatives are not that great, however. The skill-back thing I never understood, why would anyone want to buy something to wait for a skill to partially respec while losing out on passive SP? The amount of wasted SP you are paying for with Aurum makes little sense.
As for your second point, I do not believe the majority of people asking for a respec feel that way. Sure there are some who want frequent respecs so they can keep trying out whatever they want, but they are in the minority. I am fairly confident that most people regardless of their position on respecs agree that your decisions should have long term consequences.
My counter suggestions would be to give all new players a one time offer for a respec that they can cash in whenever they want, and perhaps impose a limit whether it be a time frame from your character's creation date or an certain amount of lifetime SP in which you forfeit your one time offer. Also provide a respec for those who have skills into racial variants of newly released core content (core content being basic dropsuit frames, basic weapon archetypes, and vehicles).
It's not that hard to understand. The point I made about the first side of the pro-respec camp is that they feel that the SP they misplaced is wasted SP. Try reading the thread that I linked. It seems to be gaining support even from the pro-respec folks. Hell, I am ok with this skillback booster and I am among the most vocal of anti-respec folks so that should mean something.
The suggestion you recommended is an old idea that was brought up. It's in the feedback section of the forums somewhere but people are still even divided about that suggestion and even I opposed it. Although I think I'm starting to warm up to the idea so who knows where this will go.
There was one other alternative that I suggested ages ago.
Neural Remaps.
Eve Online has a Neural Ramp system in place. It doesn't directly affect SP but it does affect how much SP becomes needed to train a skill book over time. This is done by giving each skill book at least two of the five attributes: willpower, perception, charisma, intelligence, and memory. Each player is given a set amount of attribute points per attribute.
Every year, an Eve player is given a chance to rearrange their attribute points to whichever attribute that they like. The more points given to willpower and perception will mean that skill books that share those attributes will require less skill books to train up. However, this also means that less points in intelligence, charisma, and memory will result in all other skill books that share those attributes to take much longer to train up. It's a trade off. Every choice must have a consequence. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3281
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
dday3six wrote:Maken Tosch, I can't take much you say about respecs seriously considering you're dog in the hunt is you quitting both Dust and Eve Online and/or you trying to organize more Jita Riots.
I'm not in the mood to get into a heated discussion with you and I don't want this thread to get out of hand because of it. If you want to talk about my stance on the issue, do that elsewhere. Not here. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3282
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 19:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Because my stance here is not the point. The point is the alternatives that are available for those who support respecs. But of course, since a few of you are pressing the issue, I might as well just cave in.
Quote:What is your stance on allowing respecs after the racial scouts, heavies, and vehicles are released?
I'm starting to have second thoughts on this. Originally I was again respecs for new things like that, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have only one more respec for when all racial suits and weapons come out. But then again, that will go against what CCP stated earlier of not undoing SP choices in the foreseeable future and then people will start bitching and moaning about how CCP easily goes back on their word. This just makes it more confusing.
Quote:Why can't we question you about your stance in all this respec-thing?
That is not what I meant. You can go ask me about it elsewhere, I just felt that it detracts from the main point of this thread. But again, since some people hear want to know anyways, I might as well answer.
Quote:Players have a right to know your stake in respecs.
No you don't. Not unless I'm running for the CPM or the CSM which I can't imagine myself doing... ever. I was just being nice enough to tell you my stake in this.
Overall, I look at it from an economic and data-gathering standpoint which are the principle reasons why I am mostly against respecs. Besides, I already explained in detail why I am against respecs in general. I am not obligated to repeat myself over and over again especially since you all have the search function available for you. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Another alternative to the whole respec thing is that CCP can do what they did for Eve Online and applying to Dust.
Splitting Skill Books
In Eve Online, ship skills were grouped up into generalized books like battlecruiser, battleship, etc. with minor racial prerequisites such as Amarr frigate or cruiser, or Gallente frigate, etc. Because this created problems, CCP decided to streamline the skill tree like they did with the Dust skill tree but went one step further by splitting up the generalized skill books into their racial variants and then giving the players who trained up those skill books extra SP and applied them automatically on behalf of the players.
Example:
Let's say you have Battleship Level 4 and Amarr Cruiser Level 5 and Caldari Cruiser Level 4. After the change CCP then gives you Amarr Battleship Level 4 and Caldari Battleship Level 4 because of the two racial prerequisites you trained earlier. This resulted in you gaining extra SP that was already allocated for you by CCP while at the same time you received a partial refund of the SP from skill books who had their prerequisites partially lowered.
This might work for Dust, but considering the disorganized nature of the current skill tree, that kind of makes it feel like it will take a long time to sort through. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
RKKR wrote:Fair enough.
I also summed #3 why there should be another respec.
CCP's word isn't worth much for DUST514 lately isn't? AAA Shooter? lol .... it's only a fool that thinks they should keep their word on the respecs.
Yeah, to be honest with you, I think CCP needs to have a talk with their marketing team on that. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
dday3six wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:No you don't. Not unless I'm running for the CPM or the CSM which I can't imagine myself doing... ever. I was just being nice enough to tell you my stake in this.
Overall, I look at it from an economic and data-gathering standpoint which are the principle reasons why I am mostly against respecs. Besides, I already explained in detail why I am against respecs in general. I am not obligated to repeat myself over and over again especially since you all have the search function available for you. When you could be motivated in part by not wanting to confront the internal moral conflict that respecs being introduced to the would induce, there exists a reasonable prospect that you have a conflict of interest in regards to respecs. That's what I feel players have a right now along with your opinions on respecs. On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting.
5 years actually. Not 10.
Either way, there were plenty of players who quit Eve back in 2011 who were around much longer than I was and they had no problem cancelling their subscriptions. I don't care about cancelling mines should the situation ever come.
EDIT: If you want to talk about deleting accounts, well.. CCP has to really **** me off for me to do that. And many people did that back in 2011. |
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
RKKR wrote:dday3six wrote:RKKR wrote:Or in other words: they should have taken their time to test a good SP-system (and the rest of the basics) before "releasing" the game. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say Dust's development reached a point that it needed to be "released" in attempt to increase revenue potential so development could continue. If that would be true then I hope they have learned a lesson from it...it makes sense with all the AUR-packages...aaaah we'll never know for sure.
Just wait until the 2013 Financial Report is posted next year on CCP's corporate website.
Anyways, what do you guys think about the "splitting of the skill books" alternative? Would you be willing to let CCP allocate SP for you into new books like how Eve players experienced? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3284
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 20:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean). The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that.
Racial symmetry is something I can see as a valid excuse but only core suits like Amarr Heavy, Amarr Assault, Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout. I would not support respecs just because Amarr Covert Ops just came out soon after. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3286
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:dday3six wrote:On more then one occasion you cited you'll quit both games if respec are introduced. That's a clear potential for you to have a personal stake in there no being respecs, considering how by your own admission you've played Eve Online for 10 years, and therefore has a great deal to lose from quitting. There's a distinct possibility of me doing the same, should this happen eve side or in other ways than skillback boosters or strictly limited for racial symmetry purposes dust side (search for the term and my name to get what i mean). The reason is not blind vengeance for CCP not doing as i wish but because the SP system is one of the most important reasons why i play both games and a hallmark of New Eden. If this is gone, i might be gone as well. Simple as that. Racial symmetry is something I can see as a valid excuse but only core suits like Amarr Heavy, Amarr Assault, Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout. I would not support respecs just because Amarr Covert Ops just came out soon after. I'd say anything that gets a racial variant allows a relocation of already spent SP from one variant to another, one time per char and limited only to the specific skills and their prerequisites. Future generations of players won't care about what we'd view as "core" today so i can't see how we can justify denying them something that we already got for the very same reasons.
I'm starting to warm up to this idea. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3286
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 21:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
RKKR wrote:I'm not sure Maken Tosch if I understand your option completely, I'm a EVE noob and I still think DUST is better off with some more thinkering and testing, but ooh well...I'm actually starting to not care anymore...seems you feel that way too? Doesn't sound good eh? Skyhound Solbrave wrote:I feel like people completely ignore the other side of the pro-respec crowd. The people who only want to use their respecs for the current Flavor of the Month. I highly doubt they are as few as people say they are and I'm convinces that's the major reason people want respecs. That's if you won't limit the respecs in any way of the other, noone said it doesn't have to have any consquences.
If you're talking about the 'skill splitting' I mentioned, it's not that hard to understand. But since you said you're an Eve Noob you probably weren't around when the skill tree in Eve got completely overhauled. CCP does have a blog about it on their community website.
Community.EveOnline.com |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3288
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 23:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like to remind everyone here that Eve Online has all the core racial ship classes it needs and those ships still get rebalanced every now and then along with their respective modules. Yet they haven't received a single respec. So far this has not caused any problems with Eve and very little (if any) players ever complained about it nor feel that they needed a respec. This is because the core content is already there and much of the game's core mechanics have been fixed.
One more thing I need to emphasize here is that respecs will not fix core issues. You can put unlimited respecs all you want but the game will still be crap because:
1. Hit Detection hasn't been resolved. 2. Disconnects are still prevalent. 3. Weapons are still unbalanced. 4. Glitches are all over the place.
Even with the respecs, the core issues alone will still drive most players away. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3289
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 00:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
I made an update to the OP with the recommended alternatives. What do you all think of the Neural Remap and/or skill splitting idea?
If the game master is ok with this, can you please move this thread over to the feedback section of the forums? I feel this thread and its discussion is starting to feel like it belongs there. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3290
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 00:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
KING SALASI wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I like to remind everyone here that Eve Online has all the core racial ship classes it needs and those ships still get rebalanced every now and then along with their respective modules. Yet they haven't received a single respec. So far this has not caused any problems with Eve and very little (if any) players ever complained about it nor feel that they needed a respec. This is because the core content is already there and much of the game's core mechanics have been fixed.
One more thing I need to emphasize here is that respecs will not fix core issues. You can put unlimited respecs all you want but the game will still be crap because:
1. Hit Detection hasn't been resolved. 2. Disconnects are still prevalent. 3. Weapons are still unbalanced. 4. Glitches are all over the place.
Even with the respecs, the core issues alone will still drive most players away. Eve is bad example the system they use is minutes,hours, days, weeks, and months. So its easy to skill into something in Eve not dust. We grind for SP with limited game modes with no PVE.
That still doesn't change the fact that putting in a respec will not fix the core issues. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3291
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 01:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Even though technically the nova knives are Caldari, the server doesn't see the knives like that. Not yet at least until the racial variants come in. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3291
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 02:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Even though technically the nova knives are Caldari, the server doesn't see the knives like that. Not yet at least until the racial variants come in. does that mean we'll get our Nova Knife SP refunded when the other variants are introduced?
Probably not. If CCP does to Dust what they did with the Eve skills, it's more than likely that CCP would allocate the SP for you into other racial variants depending on which racial skills you have. That would also mean you would get extra SP without needing to grind anything at all. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3291
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 02:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Here's what I came up with a few days ago... All skills in dropsuits, weapons, and modules, vehicles, ect should get a respec. Nothing more. Like core skills. But only when a new thing comes out for them and you would like to try them out.
No. Only for racial symmetry as pointed out earlier in the previous page would an extra respec be recommended.
Let's say CCP releases all racial variants of all classes.
Amarr Heavy Amarr Assault Amarr Scout Amarr Logistics Gallente Heavy Gallente Assault Gallente Scout Gallente Logistics Caldari.... you get what I mean.
At that point, I might understand an extra respec just because of the symmetry.
But if CCP later on, after the symmetry, deploys Gallente Covert Ops (a powerful form of a Gallente Scout) then no, they shouldn't give out respecs. |
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3300
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 16:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:First Prophet wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Even though technically the nova knives are Caldari, the server doesn't see the knives like that. Not yet at least until the racial variants come in. does that mean we'll get our Nova Knife SP refunded when the other variants are introduced? Probably not. If CCP does to Dust what they did with the Eve skills, it's more than likely that CCP would allocate the SP for you into other racial variants depending on which racial skills you have. That would also mean you would get extra SP without needing to grind anything at all. Kind of dumb that it gets done without your choice, but it would well work in my case so I won't complain if that's how it goes down. Still, not being sure how they plan to do this makes it hard to plan my skills. Really tempted to get those proto knives, but those kalamari knives are so smelly.
You could always opt for the Minmatar knives which (according to the Fanfest pics) look like a piece of metal with duck tape for a handle. Then again, the Gallente seem to have watched one too many Star Trek films to make a Klingon hook knife. |
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