DUST Search - [Feedback] Uplink Spam vs Needle spam

Kazeno Rannaa wrote:

Mavado V Noriega wrote:

Ok so this is 1 of many feedback posts ive been wanting to make a while but been slackin cuz well......loldust and lolccp listening to feedback for once but here goes.

I have a serious problem with the tactical play in this game when it comes to uplink spam. Seems "tactics" seem to be spam 8-10 uplinks on a point and zerg. Imo that isnt tactics thats poor gameplay balance.

Games that let u use custom spawn points are usually limited to a class thus limiting how many can be active on the field at once cuz no one will all run that one class. Now DUST is different and i dont think it should be limited like that however there are some fixes that could make uplinks more tactical

1. Implement a radius barrier, meaning uplinks cant be placed too close to one another or the previous 1 is destroyed. This prevents ppl from spamming 10 in 1 spot and makes ppl THINK where they need to strategically place their uplinks

2. Equipment jammer, this is more a SoonGäó aka 2015 fix/implementation but how about a piece of equipment that jams/disables enemy equipment in an area?

1st option is something that can be done soon-ish imo

Moving on now.............

Uplink Spam vs Needle spam
IMO i rather see needle spam than uplink spam for various reasons

1. Injector is vastly underused
2. Using the injector is more risk involved than just spamming a million uplinks in a spot
3. Making a medic role actually viable and more important

Plus if a person really thinks about it, here is a piece of logic why needles, are far superior to uplinks in the long term of a match, pub or CB/PC.

Since using an up link means two things: 1) lose a suit/fitting, 2) lose a clone, so if it is close (numerically speaking in the number of clones separating the two teams from each other and from the total clones left available and therefore till the end of the match).

So a team loses less clones, and thereby less suits which turns out to a more cost effective game, i.e., you make ISK. Which isn't that's what it's all about? Making that COLD and HARD ISK! Idea

THe thing is, and I believe this to be itching in the backs of peoples' minds as they make the choice between spawning in or hoping for the needle (and maybe one, two, or more spastic jolts from ground to and down repeatedly) is that will it work this time, and does some one have a beed drawn onto the fool hooking me up with the revive?

Needless to say I would prefer to have the needle going instead of links all the time and make a bit more money per match.

OH! When is PVE coming out??? The needles there would be much more fun!!

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Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 70	Posted - 2013.07.05 01:10:00 - [31] - Quote I'm surprised by all the "restrict uplinks to logi" ideas being thrown around. If uplinks are going to be restricted to anything, I'd say Scouts. Scouts are meant to be ahead of the lines, and nothing can win a battle faster than outflanking, and nothing flanks better than an uplink behind he enemy. Logis already have the needle, repper, and nanohives. Must be all those killerbees. ;)
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Top Men. 49	Posted - 2013.07.05 01:15:00 - [32] - Quote Spawn uplinks seem pretty fine to me, they add a lot of strategy to the game. I hate spawning on objs more than uplinks. However, I understand the OP feelings and I want there to be a spawn scrambler that is the opposite of an uplink. It should add time to a respawn from uplinks and should have a significant radius. It too could be based on the number of spawns so as to not make it completely destroy uplink usefulness.
ALPHA DECRIPTER M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 62	Posted - 2013.07.15 11:27:00 - [33] - Quote Scramblers? YES! I would love to sneak behind the attacking enemy and screw them over by placing a single gadget as aposed to shooting/stabbing/fluxing them one-by-one. Restrict to logi? lol your joking right? Logi are always at the front line were as scouts are always BEHINDE the enemy. Best way to redline the enemy is to knock out there defenses. When they retreat to regain there defense... ATTACK WITH NO MERCY! (logis with ULs would help with that attack so... eh restricting is a no) UL/team Cap? Do it! Once the cap is reached you will be unable to throw down anymore uplinks. (your uplink will be returned to you) Minimum range? Only if the use limit is also implemented as without it the idea falls apart. [kinda off topic] Cloak, deployable shield, AND scrambler? So many ways to build a logi lol
Reno Pechieu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.07.15 12:06:00 - [34] - Quote First, I hope this doesnGÇÖt end up hurting Scouts. While I primary play Logi, I also enjoy sneaking behind enemy lines and giving my team to option to flank the opposition. So here are some comments on the subject: *Points for destroying uplinks (and other equipment on the battlefield):* ItGÇÖs been said before, but itGÇÖs a good start. 10 WP seems descent Hacking equipment: I think CCP has mentioned that this can be a possibility, although this wonGÇÖt end people dropping multiple at the same time. Have it take some time to set it up: Just because it has the word GÇ£dropGÇ¥ in the name, doesnGÇÖt mean it can be tossed around. Making people spend time deploying it would make it harder to spam, also counter some of the meta-gaming placements. Why is it better than the clone vats? No seriously, I would imagine that the clone vats should be superior, this could be done by having Uplinks not grant full health and/or ammo upon use. Higher level would grant more. (Although, this idea would kinda hurt Ambush) Either that, or they have a lifetime or uses before they shutdown Precision scrambling: I feel that Precision strike needs to cost more, which is likely to make many people cranky (small digression). But if the commander had other options that didnGÇÖt cost as much, but served other tactical purposes, like a strike that jams or shuts down equipment in an area.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 130	Posted - 2013.07.15 17:57:00 - [35] - Quote Seems the main problem is that too many people have too many equipment slots and CPU/PG on their suits. There's a simple solution to this: make assault suits the superior choice for frontline duty. If everyone is running assault suits with a single equipment slot again instead of logi suits, they will think twice about carrying an uplink all the time. CPU costs of uplinks are huge, carrying them on assault suits means to sacrifice tank or damage ouput, especially on a shield tanked suit.
Brutor Fartknocker M.E.R.C. Freelancers Corp 0	Posted - 2013.07.15 18:14:00 - [36] - Quote I'm really surprised uplinks are getting so much hate, but really, its not that hard to take them out with a sidearm or flux grenades.The only time they are a problem is when you can't get to them, because the enemy team is beating you. I think the idea of equipment you deploy to somehow sabotage uplinks would be cool, regardless of specifics. There is no reason to put a cap on uplinks, limit them to a suit type, or change them significantly. I'm an assault, but I switch suit builds constantly, using uplinks at first, nanohives when needed, and whatever else as appropriate. They are a great source of war points, as they should be. If I want to primarily fight, and secondarily support my team, I should be able to do that. Yes, uplinks are a powerful support tool. As a powerful support tool, both sides should be using them. If the other team is all using duvolles with lai dai av grenades, then they are probably going to do pretty well. Not wanting to knock how good anyone is, but its not that hard to kill uplinks. They die to bullets, grenades, orbitals, just about everything except being ran over. They also don't move. Pretty easy to shoot something that's not moving. They are blatantly obvious on radar, they will stay there, and they show through walls/ceilings when you look for them. Uplinks already cost quite a bit to wear, I usually forgo a sidearm to use one. Should they be so expensive you have to run a naked suit with the cheapest gun possible to use them? How is anyone having problems if the uplinks are clustered together? Its really dumb to drop them on top of each other, because then even a locus grenade can take them all out. The level one uplink blows, you pretty much have to buy up to advanced to make them useful at all. Uplinks are no where near as good as a cru, they don't have 30000 health and they don't have an unlimited number of spawns. Nanite injectors rock now, so I really don't get the complaints. Anyone who has played since 1.2 would know, since almost always its an easy stab at the person and voila, they get back up. I can't believe this has gotten the attention of the deva at CCP. This is as much a problem as the other team having too many players, the other team using guns, and vehicles hurting me when they run over me.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 649	Posted - 2013.07.15 18:19:00 - [37] - Quote Make uplinks harder to detect and they won't be spammed. I think uplinks and the scanning power of the dropsuits should be tied together. For example a heavy with anything but maxed out scanning precision shouldn't be able to see an uplink. People are running guys that their entire job is hunting and placing uplinks. This job would be much more vital if the scanning skills were more important.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion rise of legion 89	Posted - 2013.07.16 03:50:00 - [38] - Quote Quote: Make uplinks harder to detect and they won't be spammed. I find this very hard to believe. Say I'm trying to control an area that has two control points on it. If I deploy two dozen drop uplinks nearby, I am much more likely to retain control of one or both points for the entire game. This doesn't change if uplinks are harder to spot; in fact, the tactic becomes more effective. What will eventually happen is that both teams will spam uplinks on contested points, but due to them being harder to find, the uplinks will stay around all match and it will be impossible to actually secure a control point. Uplinks need to be fewer per team before they can be harder to find.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F 56	Posted - 2013.07.16 07:22:00 - [39] - Quote Perhaps we just need to update their current design to reduce the spamming and make them more tactical. The ones we have now feel... dumb. There is no more thought to their placement other than make sure we have a bunch close to the target and hope the enemy can't take them all out. We litter an area with them because there is no need to really do anything else with them. Reading over the replies it sounds like there are two main uses for uplinks, point assault / defense, and flanking / backdoor maneuvers. There are also several shortcomings, namely quick respawns on a point creating this weird, chaotic zergfest situation, and not having much tactical use/thought involved. What i propose is to replace the current version with two variants. Numbers are just for illustration. Stealth Uplink can carry 1/2/3 and deploy 1/2/3 depending on tier used 2/4/6 clones Shows up to active scanners, or passing within 15/10/5 meters, otherwise cloaked low hit points ~200 Placed like the current ones No bonus to spawn time. Low cpu/pg usage Limited to scout suits Ideal for covert maneuvers, flanking, getting behind enemy lines. Its a bit better than what we have now for several reasons. Only scouts can bring them, limiting the number of players with them. They also have lower spawn counts. The idea is they get placed, a squad spawns in, and its gone. Short duration, but stealthy. Beachhead Uplink can carry 1 / can have 1 deployed Nominal fitting costs, but higher isk cost, give a little more weight to the decision to use one. 20/30/40 clones Can not be placed within 100/75/50 meters of a null cannon. Low hit points during activation, high hit points after activation 2k/4k/6k? by drawing power from the wormhole Visible anywhere on map Bonus to spawn time 8s / 6s / 4s Dropped and then activated, starting a 60/45/30 second online timer, visible to all players limit 1-3 per team So for the beachhead, its a mini cru. When you go to plant one the act of doing so is sort of this beacon that goes up. Its obvious to the enemy what youre attempting, and its something they want to prevent. If you can defend it long enough for it to online you now have this hardened (ish) spawn point from which to assault from. It has some health, so it won't be the easiest thing to take down, but not so much that a few remote explosives won't wipe it out if it gets overrun. Your team can only place a limited number so their placement is now very important. It can't be placed right on an objective so you won't see the situation we have now of one team utterly dominating a point, spawning right on top of it within seconds of dying (assuming they disable spawn point spawning, which i hope they do). Now there is a short run back for each side, and with the limited placement of these it will be open to flanking maneuvers from stealth pads. Planting one causes this sort of organic objective to happen. Your team sees the enemy starting to online one and its this new objective for you to attack, and for them to defend. Just a thought, what do you guys think?
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3261	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:01:00 - [40] - Quote Shameless plug: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1063731#post1063731

Gorra Snell BetaMax. CRONOS. 54	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:28:00 - [41] - Quote Provolonee wrote: +10 WP for destroying equipment. I'm sure you would see alot less of them. How easily they are to spot makes spamming them necessary. You could also increase the flux grenades equipment destroying ability. I like this solution
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 73	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:30:00 - [42] - Quote Baracka Flocka Flame wrote: +1 Always a fan of making players think and use awareness(using a needle) then just spamming uplinks that bring people back in 3 seconds. Makes the Needle/CRU abosulutly useless lol. Why would i risk running out and picking somoene up and covering them as they get up when i can just wait 4 seconds for them to be back in the fight... lol Also lol @ the guy talking about losing and stats... good old DUST forums. ugh, you would risk that becuase it would cost you a clone. In PC when you are limited to (sometimes) only100 clones, it is important... thinkbeforeyouspeak sir.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1958	Posted - 2013.07.17 23:31:00 - [43] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Baracka Flocka Flame wrote: +1 Always a fan of making players think and use awareness(using a needle) then just spamming uplinks that bring people back in 3 seconds. Makes the Needle/CRU abosulutly useless lol. Why would i risk running out and picking somoene up and covering them as they get up when i can just wait 4 seconds for them to be back in the fight... lol Also lol @ the guy talking about losing and stats... good old DUST forums. ugh, you would risk that becuase it would cost you a clone. In PC when you are limited to (sometimes) only100 clones, it is important... thinkbeforeyouspeak sir. That would be great if the gameplay in PC actually supported your argument. In reality, PC has the most uplink spam of any gamemode, and spotting an injector in PC is like spotting a unicorn.
Kazeno Rannaa Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 197	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:35:00 - [44] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Ok so this is 1 of many feedback posts ive been wanting to make a while but been slackin cuz well......loldust and lolccp listening to feedback for once but here goes. I have a serious problem with the tactical play in this game when it comes to uplink spam. Seems "tactics" seem to be spam 8-10 uplinks on a point and zerg. Imo that isnt tactics thats poor gameplay balance. Games that let u use custom spawn points are usually limited to a class thus limiting how many can be active on the field at once cuz no one will all run that one class. Now DUST is different and i dont think it should be limited like that however there are some fixes that could make uplinks more tactical 1. Implement a radius barrier, meaning uplinks cant be placed too close to one another or the previous 1 is destroyed. This prevents ppl from spamming 10 in 1 spot and makes ppl THINK where they need to strategically place their uplinks 2. Equipment jammer, this is more a SoonGäó aka 2015 fix/implementation but how about a piece of equipment that jams/disables enemy equipment in an area? 1st option is something that can be done soon-ish imo Moving on now............. Uplink Spam vs Needle spam IMO i rather see needle spam than uplink spam for various reasons 1. Injector is vastly underused 2. Using the injector is more risk involved than just spamming a million uplinks in a spot 3. Making a medic role actually viable and more important Plus if a person really thinks about it, here is a piece of logic why needles, are far superior to uplinks in the long term of a match, pub or CB/PC. Since using an up link means two things: 1) lose a suit/fitting, 2) lose a clone, so if it is close (numerically speaking in the number of clones separating the two teams from each other and from the total clones left available and therefore till the end of the match). So a team loses less clones, and thereby less suits which turns out to a more cost effective game, i.e., you make ISK. Which isn't that's what it's all about? Making that COLD and HARD ISK! THe thing is, and I believe this to be itching in the backs of peoples' minds as they make the choice between spawning in or hoping for the needle (and maybe one, two, or more spastic jolts from ground to and down repeatedly) is that will it work this time, and does some one have a beed drawn onto the fool hooking me up with the revive? Needless to say I would prefer to have the needle going instead of links all the time and make a bit more money per match. OH! When is PVE coming out??? The needles there would be much more fun!!
Bettie Boop 2100190003 A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 56	Posted - 2013.07.19 10:42:00 - [45] - Quote The idea of limiting the number per side is good, as long as better equipment (i.e. proto level) isnt bumped off the map by some one tossing out the Milit Blueprint. Here is where I see the biggest difference in the eyes of a player on the receiving end of the needle/uplink. -The Needle: When some one picks you up with a needle you get back in the fight instantly with 30/50/80% (Numbers are close but not 100% sure they are spot on) health Do you really want to be picked up in the middle of a fire fight with NO SHIELDS and 30% armor? In most matches (public and FW) the majority of the time you will be picked up with the 30%, once in a while 50%, and almost never with an 80%. In Ambush its even less often to see a high grade needle and you see low grade ones almost every game. The final reason for not running needles is explosions and shooting a body 1-4 times eliminates the ability to revive the player. -The Uplink: Why would you wait for a needle when you could just respawn with full health and shields in a better tactical location with full ammunition ready to kill? With the exception of ambush/OMS there is very little incentive to stick around and be picked up by the player with a needle unless you are running a proto suit. If you want to see the needle used more give a bigger incentive NOT to the people using the needle, but to the ones being picked up by it.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1969	Posted - 2013.07.20 00:22:00 - [46] - Quote Kazeno Rannaa wrote: Mavado V Noriega wrote: Ok so this is 1 of many feedback posts ive been wanting to make a while but been slackin cuz well......loldust and lolccp listening to feedback for once but here goes. I have a serious problem with the tactical play in this game when it comes to uplink spam. Seems "tactics" seem to be spam 8-10 uplinks on a point and zerg. Imo that isnt tactics thats poor gameplay balance. Games that let u use custom spawn points are usually limited to a class thus limiting how many can be active on the field at once cuz no one will all run that one class. Now DUST is different and i dont think it should be limited like that however there are some fixes that could make uplinks more tactical 1. Implement a radius barrier, meaning uplinks cant be placed too close to one another or the previous 1 is destroyed. This prevents ppl from spamming 10 in 1 spot and makes ppl THINK where they need to strategically place their uplinks 2. Equipment jammer, this is more a SoonGäó aka 2015 fix/implementation but how about a piece of equipment that jams/disables enemy equipment in an area? 1st option is something that can be done soon-ish imo Moving on now............. Uplink Spam vs Needle spam IMO i rather see needle spam than uplink spam for various reasons 1. Injector is vastly underused 2. Using the injector is more risk involved than just spamming a million uplinks in a spot 3. Making a medic role actually viable and more important Plus if a person really thinks about it, here is a piece of logic why needles, are far superior to uplinks in the long term of a match, pub or CB/PC. Since using an up link means two things: 1) lose a suit/fitting, 2) lose a clone, so if it is close (numerically speaking in the number of clones separating the two teams from each other and from the total clones left available and therefore till the end of the match). So a team loses less clones, and thereby less suits which turns out to a more cost effective game, i.e., you make ISK. Which isn't that's what it's all about? Making that COLD and HARD ISK! THe thing is, and I believe this to be itching in the backs of peoples' minds as they make the choice between spawning in or hoping for the needle (and maybe one, two, or more spastic jolts from ground to and down repeatedly) is that will it work this time, and does some one have a beed drawn onto the fool hooking me up with the revive? Needless to say I would prefer to have the needle going instead of links all the time and make a bit more money per match. OH! When is PVE coming out??? The needles there would be much more fun!! No one but new players who aren't in corporations care about ISK. CCP hands it out like candy, to the point that it's almost entirely irrelevant unless you're a pilot... and most serious pilots are getting stipends from their corp since no running infantry cares about ISK.
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 586	Posted - 2013.07.30 07:46:00 - [47] - Quote Only thing I'll say is this. I run gallente logi. I partially specced gallente logi for the ability to run quad proto links, I can lay down 9 with one fit. If links were given a limit per team I'd adapt, nevertheless I hope it's more than ten. With maps as large as they are your team should never all be in the same place at the same time. If you limited links to 15, that's 5-8 per objective if you're holding 2-3. I just lol at the 10 second timer link spams that pervade some domination matches. On a different note I'd prefer matches placed like domination where owning the objective doesn't mean you can spawn on it, to make cru's less expendable.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2067	Posted - 2013.07.30 21:30:00 - [48] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Only thing I'll say is this. I run gallente logi. I partially specced gallente logi for the ability to run quad proto links, I can lay down 9 with one fit. If links were given a limit per team I'd adapt, nevertheless I hope it's more than ten. With maps as large as they are your team should never all be in the same place at the same time. If you limited links to 15, that's 5-8 per objective if you're holding 2-3. I just lol at the 10 second timer link spams that pervade some domination matches. On a different note I'd prefer matches placed like domination where owning the objective doesn't mean you can spawn on it, to make cru's less expendable. I definitely agree with you on removing the objective spawning from Skirmish. I can't, off the top of my head, think of another single multiplayer FPS that lets you spawn on the capture points. As far as the uplinks, I think 5-8 per objective is still clearly what most would consider "uplink spam." I'd say 16 total per team would be more than adequate. That's an uplink for every guy on the field. On a 5 point map that's still 3+ per objective, which seems like a pretty fair compromise. Even though, like you point out, for an average match that's still 5-8 per objective (since the objectives will be split between teams in a decent matchup), which IMO is completely ridiculous. But at least it would be an improvement over the current trend of 30+ per team that we currently see in "serious" matches.
Zatara Rought TeamPlayers EoN. 1124	Posted - 2013.09.01 14:45:00 - [49] - Quote 10 players running the same gauged ishokune proto link = 30 links...that like 6-9 per obj with the potential for even more for multiclassing heavies. The current mechanics allow player allocation to matter. I can get less guys running links be ause we have 3 dedicated. If you idea prevailed we'd just adapt and do the same thing. Unless you hard cap it well still get just as many uplinks down, little only a fraction more difficulty. I do think something should be done. Just playing devils advocate.
ADAM-OF-EVE Svartur Bjorn 243	Posted - 2013.09.01 15:05:00 - [50] - Quote in an ideal world: uplinks would be scout suit only. nano hive would be assault/logistics only needle/rep tool would be logi only remote charges would be assault and scout only logistics suits would not be able to fit grenades or light weapons this would fix allot of issues uplinks on scouts only would make them a must have in a fight in order to advance or protect a position. tbh anyone could carry ammo so nano hives isnt an issue. needle and rep tool only for logistics cuts down needle spam and makes the need for dedicated medics remote charges on logistics suits is just op as they can carry so many of them. a medic shouldn't have that much power.add that to the no grenades or light weapons puts logistics fully into its support role leaving no margin for it to become an assault or jack of all trades suit. no more drop uplink spam, no more needle spam, no more remote explosive spam, no more assault logi suits

Skihids Bullet Cluster 1999	Posted - 2013.09.01 15:15:00 - [51] - Quote ADAM-OF-EVE wrote: in an ideal world: uplinks would be scout suit only. nano hive would be assault/logistics only needle/rep tool would be logi only remote charges would be assault and scout only logistics suits would not be able to fit grenades or light weapons this would fix allot of issues uplinks on scouts only would make them a must have in a fight in order to advance or protect a position. tbh anyone could carry ammo so nano hives isnt an issue. needle and rep tool only for logistics cuts down needle spam and makes the need for dedicated medics remote charges on logistics suits is just op as they can carry so many of them. a medic shouldn't have that much power.add that to the no grenades or light weapons puts logistics fully into its support role leaving no margin for it to become an assault or jack of all trades suit. no more drop uplink spam, no more needle spam, no more remote explosive spam, no more assault logi suits Limiting fitting diversity and flexibility is the wrong wy to go about balancing DUST. Take this to its logical conclusion and you will get the fixed clases of other FPS's.
Jadu Wen Xer Cloud Consortium 14	Posted - 2013.10.22 13:31:00 - [52] - Quote You should check out this thread on Using Radiation Zones to Curtail Drop Uplink Use. I think it's a novel way to recondition but not force players to discontinue uplink spam of objectives. Plus it creates a system for highly dynamic play.
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 167	Posted - 2013.10.22 13:40:00 - [53] - Quote ^very good suggestion. I copied this from a thread on the main page because it made so much sense. "there is no substitute for movement in a shooter. the ability to get from point A to point B is the most important aspect after shooting skill. beating the opponent to a choke point and/or being able to setup a defensive position is a decided advantage as defensive war doesnt require tactics as much as reaction to the attacker. defenders also have the adv of choosing the best cover to fire from leaving attackers the open areas. this is true on COD sized maps, here in Dust with maps 4x the size of what we saw in MAG movement from the spawn to the critical area is even more important. the ability to respawn immediately at the chokepoint or objective is a different matter entirely. the advantage gained is incalculable. drop uplinks were poorly designed and have to be changed."


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