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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens League of Infamy
246
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the whole shtick with us here Mercenaries is that we are Immortal. EVE Capsuleers also use Clones to transfer themselves into new clones at the moment of death. When your pod is blown, your previous self sends the new you a mail saying something like "Well, I died. You better be more successful than I was." However, the thing with the Immortals is that they have a true consciousness transfer. To put it very quickly: EVE Capsuleers copy while Immortals literally move their 'soul' to another body.
So why aren't the Amarr using this as proof of their God and the soul? "We have known for years that it was simply biochemistry that made 'up' a brain. With the exact knowledge of it, we have created Clones. These Clones are not 'you'; they are an exact copy but are not 'you.' You are still dead."
"But the Empress has used this new technology to create true Immortals. Now think about that. Instant conscious transfer at the moment of death. This is no longer a duplicate of a person that was killed; this IS the person that was killed. Science cannot explain this. How can they? For with this technology, we have discovered the Soul that God has given to us all!"
The Amarr are pretty much "kneel before Zod" when it comes to the whole faith thing. Why wouldn't they be pushing that angle? Especially when she was pretty much saved by the evil Joves with this technology. Seems 'God' is really on their side.
Why did I write this up? Because my Ramen was taking longer than it should to heat up and I was bored.
Be well. |
Aisha Ctarl
The Generals EoN.
360
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:So the whole shtick with us here Mercenaries is that we are Immortal. EVE Capsuleers also use Clones to transfer themselves into new clones at the moment of death. When your pod is blown, your previous self sends the new you a mail saying something like "Well, I died. You better be more successful than I was." However, the thing with the Immortals is that they have a true consciousness transfer. To put it very quickly: EVE Capsuleers copy while Immortals literally move their 'soul' to another body.
So why aren't the Amarr using this as proof of their God and the soul? "We have known for years that it was simply biochemistry that made 'up' a brain. With the exact knowledge of it, we have created Clones. These Clones are not 'you'; they are an exact copy but are not 'you.' You are still dead."
"But the Empress has used this new technology to create true Immortals. Now think about that. Instant conscious transfer at the moment of death. This is no longer a duplicate of a person that was killed; this IS the person that was killed. Science cannot explain this. How can they? For with this technology, we have discovered the Soul that God has given to us all!"
The Amarr are pretty much "kneel before Zod" when it comes to the whole faith thing. Why wouldn't they be pushing that angle? Especially when she was pretty much saved by the evil Joves with this technology. Seems 'God' is really on their side.
Why did I write this up? Because my Ramen was taking longer than it should to heat up and I was bored.
Be well.
Read Templar One, they go into this sort of.
Also, Empress Jamyl isn't a believer in the Amarr faith but.........yeah just read Templar One. |
We are 138
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
50
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Posted - 2013.06.28 17:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
A decent post on the forums!?!?!? what the heck! no QQ? no nerf this? no CCP hate? I like it |
Aisha Ctarl
The Generals EoN.
360
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Also the same reasoning that the "soul" is transferred can be used AGAINST the Amarr faith.
It isn't a soul per se, but science. If you can map a person's brain neuron for neuron accurately and then basically transfer that brain schematic perfectly into a clone NEURON FOR NEURON, that person theoretically should have the same memories, IE soul.
Memories are formed by the connections that your neurons make - keep those connections the same, and you preserve the memory.
So it isn't a soul, just fancy science which would destroy the Amarr Faith. |
5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak3
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
237
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Posted - 2013.06.28 17:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Too deep, I'm here to blow people up! |
Dust Project 514
Dust Evo 514
53
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Posted - 2013.06.28 17:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Realistically speaking.
It is NOT a transfering of conciousness and/or soul.
It would be the last recorded mental data that is transfered to the new clones brain.
Technically, the original person died a long time ago and the clone is just a new version of them, with a different "soul" taking its place.
In reality, this is actually very horrible to put people through.
If the cloning tech of Dust were to ever be real, there would be a very good reason why only one clone could be active. It would be the fact that mutiple clones of the same person/people could very likely lead to chaos. |
calisk galern
BurgezzE.T.F
342
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Posted - 2013.06.28 17:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
yep it's not a transfer, at least back when I played you would lose SP if you died and didn't back up your clone recently.
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Aisha Ctarl
The Generals EoN.
360
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Posted - 2013.06.28 17:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
calisk galern wrote:yep it's not a transfer, at least back when I played you would lose SP if you died and didn't back up your clone recently.
I remember those days. Whenever I got podded it was followed by "****! I forgot to back up recently." |
Cody Sietz
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
260
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Its sad, I don't think its a soul transfer because god wouldn't want you to break the surly bounds of man and enter into immorality.
I believe the person in the pod or on the ground is dead, and you are merely preserving the image of someone.
Didn't someone in the books say something to the extent of "there is a little less of you each time you come back"?
Or am I thinking of "A song of ice and fire"? |
Aisha Ctarl
The Generals EoN.
360
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Its sad, I don't think its a soul transfer because god wouldn't want you to break the surly bounds of man and enter into immorality.
I believe the person in the pod or on the ground is dead, and you are merely preserving the image of someone.
Didn't someone in the books say something to the extent of "there is a little less of you each time you come back"?
Or am I thinking of "A song of ice and fire"?
I believe Lears said something to that extent. Basically each time a capsuleer is killed and wakes up in a fresh new clone, it's just a snapshot of the man/woman they were at one time in the past and some information is lost along the way. |
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Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
37
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Posted - 2013.06.28 18:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Despite the fact that capsuleers require a capsule to transfer consciousness at the moment of death, and Dust mercs use an implant, I haven't seen anything to convince me the two processes are substantively different. |
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens League of Infamy
248
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aisha Ctarl wrote:Also the same reasoning that the "soul" is transferred can be used AGAINST the Amarr faith.
It isn't a soul per se, but science. If you can map a person's brain neuron for neuron accurately and then basically transfer that brain schematic perfectly into a clone NEURON FOR NEURON, that person theoretically should have the same memories, IE soul.
Memories are formed by the connections that your neurons make - keep those connections the same, and you preserve the memory.
So it isn't a soul, just fancy science which would destroy the Amarr Faith.
Ah, but that is how it works for Capsuleers. It is not the 'exact' person. It is, as it was stated in the introduction, "an instant consciousness transfer, even at the moment of death."
It seems like they could leverage this. "You see, we had clones before. Exact neurochemistry made a clone. This isn't so. The clones are cooked before. When the Immortal dies, they transfer exact consciousness. How could you heathens not call this a Soul?"
Just wondering why the Amarr wouldn't run with it. They are the type of people that would say "the fact that you hate us is evidence of the Free Will God has given you; now submit to God's People." |
Colonel Killar
DUST CORE DARKSTAR ARMY
61
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dust Project 514 wrote:Realistically speaking.
It is NOT a transfering of conciousness and/or soul.
It would be the last recorded mental data that is transfered to the new clones brain.
Technically, the original person died a long time ago and the clone is just a new version of them, with a different "soul" taking its place.
In reality, this is actually very horrible to put people through.
If the cloning tech of Dust were to ever be real, there would be a very good reason why only one clone could be active. It would be the fact that mutiple clones of the same person/people could very likely lead to chaos. ...or Insanity |
Aisha Ctarl
The Generals EoN.
360
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Aisha Ctarl wrote:Also the same reasoning that the "soul" is transferred can be used AGAINST the Amarr faith.
It isn't a soul per se, but science. If you can map a person's brain neuron for neuron accurately and then basically transfer that brain schematic perfectly into a clone NEURON FOR NEURON, that person theoretically should have the same memories, IE soul.
Memories are formed by the connections that your neurons make - keep those connections the same, and you preserve the memory.
So it isn't a soul, just fancy science which would destroy the Amarr Faith. Ah, but that is how it works for Capsuleers. It is not the 'exact' person. It is, as it was stated in the introduction, "an instant consciousness transfer, even at the moment of death." It seems like they could leverage this. "You see, we had clones before. Exact neurochemistry made a clone. This isn't so. The clones are cooked before. When the Immortal dies, they transfer exact consciousness. How could you heathens not call this a Soul?" Just wondering why the Amarr wouldn't run with it. They are the type of people that would say "the fact that you hate us is evidence of the Free Will God has given you; now submit to God's People."
Having oxygenated blood and functioning organ systems supporting the brain and keeping it alive is what constitutes consciousness - not a soul.
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Chimichanga66605
Vader's Taco Shack
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak3 wrote:Too deep, I'm here to blow people up!
^I'm with this Guy. |
Knightshade Belladonna
G.R.A.V.E
380
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aisha Ctarl wrote:calisk galern wrote:yep it's not a transfer, at least back when I played you would lose SP if you died and didn't back up your clone recently.
I remember those days. Whenever I got podded it was followed by "****! I forgot to back up recently."
Say what? there is no consequences in Eve anymore for not keeping clone up to date? |
Fox Gaden
DUST University Ivy League
561
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
It is probably better for your sanity to simply believe yourself immortal, and that your soul is transferred to the new clone when you die.
Thinking of each new clone as simply a copy of the last, and thus pondering the mortality and final death of each, would be greatly disturbing.
When someone signs up to be an immortal mercenary they might consider whether they are willing to die in a lab so that their memories will live on. Or they may simple wish to avoid that inconvenient truth by believing in soul transfer. |
Guildo Crow
PROJECT 86 U
46
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Knightshade Belladonna wrote:Aisha Ctarl wrote:calisk galern wrote:yep it's not a transfer, at least back when I played you would lose SP if you died and didn't back up your clone recently.
I remember those days. Whenever I got podded it was followed by "****! I forgot to back up recently." Say what? there is no consequences in Eve anymore for not keeping clone up to date?
Yeah this. Why the heck am i keeping my expensive clone up to date anymore? |
Skihids
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
1667
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
It's a copy technology. Nothing is transferred except the state of all the neurons which is then used to "set" the clone brain as an exact duplicate. Consciousness is an emergent property of a complex system, not a tangible thing that can be separated from that system. There is no wisp that can be extracted and injected someplace else.
The new clone "remembers" everything from the previous clone's past because it was programmed in, and he experiences himself as a continuation of the previous for the same reason. Likewise an outside observer couldn't tell the difference.
The experience of the previous clone is quite a bit different however. The brain that is flash copied eventually ceases to function and that individual dies. That may be caused by the transfer technology, or a railgun slug to the head. When the underlying brain dies so does the consciousness it supported. |
Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
378
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 19:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
To have this discussion we would have to agree on what a soul is. I prefer to believe it is a holonic organ with which we experience our little subjective patch of the universe. Alternatively the universe itself seems to have a soul, by factoring in life in general, it would be able to observe itself, experience and remember. |
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Robert JD Niewiadomski
NULLIMPEX INC
232
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Something for DUST mercs from the "outside" of New Eden alternative/parallel reality/dimmension:
WiReD magazine wrote:Consciousness After Death: Strange Tales From the Frontiers of Resuscitation Medicine BY BRANDON KEIM 04.24.13 12:23 PM
Sam Parnia practices resuscitation medine. In other words, he helps bring people back from the dead GÇö and some return with stories. Their tales could help save lives, and even challenge traditional scientific ideas about the nature of consciousness.
GÇ£The evidence we have so far is that human consciousness does not become annihilated,GÇ¥ said Parnia, a doctor at Stony Brook University Hospital and director of the schoolGÇÖs resuscitation research program. GÇ£It continues for a few hours after death, albeit in a hibernated state we cannot see from the outside.GÇ¥
Resuscitation medicine grew out of the mid-twentieth century discovery of CPR, the medical procedure by which hearts that have stopped beating are revived. Originally effective for a few minutes after cardiac arrest, advances in CPR have pushed that time to a half-hour or more.
New techniques promise to even further extend the boundary between life and death. At the same time, experiences reported by resuscitated people sometimes defy whatGÇÖs thought to be possible. They claim to have seen and heard things, though activity in their brains appears to have stopped.
It sounds supernatural, and if their memories are accurate and their brains really have stopped, itGÇÖs neurologically inexplicable, at least with whatGÇÖs now known. Parnia, leader of the Human Consciousness ProjectGÇÖs AWARE study, which documents after-death experiences in 25 hospitals across North America and Europe, is studying the phenomenon scientifically.(...) Continued
Brain neurons' connections are akin to computer hardware. Consciousness is the software. You can make an exact copy of a hardware but it will not result in automatic appearance of the software.
Btw: Intaki of Gallente federation are able to re-born as newborns naturaly, after their old body dies. Without an implant...
I wish to thank to your noodles which tricked you into making this thread |
Skihids
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
1670
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
You are correct that hardware isn't enough, you also need the system state.
The clone's brain is the hardware (and firmware if you want to get more specific) while the state of each neuron is the system state. Together they form a functioning system.
I don't believe we know to what extent firmware (hard wiring of neurons) and the electrical state of each neuron are responsible for each function. It would be interesting to know how a person's consciousness would be affected by resetting te electrical state of every neuron at the same time. |
Dust Project 514
Dust Evo 514
56
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 20:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:To have this discussion we would have to agree on what a soul is. I prefer to believe it is a holonic organ with which we experience our little subjective patch of the universe. Alternatively the universe itself seems to have a soul, by factoring in life in general, it would be able to observe itself, experience and remember.
To me the soul is just the entity that experiences the life of the Mind/Body that it inhabits, until the brain completely dies.
Which leads to questions such as "What happens after we die?" or "What if I have already lived other lives before this one?"
In either of those cases, we can never know, because our memories begin to form when our brains become functional, and we don't know after death because the exact person that has died does not come back.
If either of those cases are to be actualities, then it would seem to state that we may in fact live in a world of "10 demensions" (the theory that everything within the realm of possibility is happening everywhere, all the time, and repeating).
But as 5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak3 stated, it is simply "Too deep."
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TheAmazing FlyingPig
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
1206
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'm going to need more weed... |
Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
50
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
I remember one of my favorite quotes seen in an EVE bio. Don't know if he got it from somewhere else, though. "I am but the living memories of a man who died before me." Some pretty existential stuff there. All capsuleers and DUST mercs are copies, plain and simple.
For the religious angle, if God wants your soul tethered to only one body, that's how it's going to be, no matter how many times you copy the conciousness. God's going to take your soul when your birth body dies, and leave the souless abomination of your memory-carrying avatar to walk the galaxy. This is what the Amarr believe, and it's why clones and capsuleers are considered to be somewhat of an abomination. The new implant doesn't change that.
For capsuleers, while in the pod they are connected to a brain scanner. The brain scanner takes a flash snap-shot of the brain, copying the memories and neural connections and such. This process fries the brain. That's why it activates when the capsule suffers a hull breach, i.e. when the body inside is already a dead because of impending exposure to the vacuum of space.
DUST mercs are effectively "immortal" because their implant works at anytime. Capsuleer's only have immortality while in the capsule, which is a big reason why many never leave. Outside of the pod, they are weak, vulnerable, and mortal.
And yes, in EVE you still lose SP if you don't have your clone updated. Also if you lose a T3 ship. Clone costs have been lowered by 30% though, to penalize you a little bit less for having played for so long. |
Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
381
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
My soul resides in every women of eve. as long as they live, I can never die. ladies.. hi. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
607
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sshh, us nerds had this argument already over Star Trek. When you're teleported, you're basically destroyed in one location and a replica is built in another. What I really want to know is: what the hell is my merc qtr clone doing while I'm deployed? Is he in a braindead stasis? Does he get a memory update after battles? And why's he in a suit?
It's a philosophical conversation about the nature of consciousness really.
If you were created 3 seconds ago, with a brain full of fake memories, how would you know? |
Skihids
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
1670
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Sshh, us nerds had this argument already over Star Trek. When you're teleported, you're basically destroyed in one location and a replica is built in another. What I really want to know is: what the hell is my merc qtr clone doing while I'm deployed? Is he in a braindead stasis? Does he get a memory update after battles? And why's he in a suit?
It's a philosophical conversation about the nature of consciousness really.
If you were created 3 seconds ago, with a brain full of fake memories, how would you know?
As the copy you wouldn't know. All your past memories would serve to convince you that you were a continuation of the original (rather than a seperate copy) and thus allow you to throw yourself into battle and certain death much easier.
A truly philosophical merc wouldn't leave his cabin.
A good way to judge if you would use the technology is this:
I copy you exactly so there are two of you. I now shoot one of you so there is only one remaining. Nobody could tell that the duplication was made after one of you walked out of the room and I burned the other.
Now, would it matter to you which one I shot? |
Dust Project 514
Dust Evo 514
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Sshh, us nerds had this argument already over Star Trek. When you're teleported, you're basically destroyed in one location and a replica is built in another. What I really want to know is: what the hell is my merc qtr clone doing while I'm deployed? Is he in a braindead stasis? Does he get a memory update after battles? And why's he in a suit?
It's a philosophical conversation about the nature of consciousness really.
If you were created 3 seconds ago, with a brain full of fake memories, how would you know?
I'm am thrilled to know that there are others out there who have thought about these things. I also came to the same POSSIBLE conclusion about tubeless teleportation.
About the merc qtr: Maybe they teleport (within the rules of the Eve universe) when in close proximity to certain areas, which could be used as an excuse to why we just phase into the battle field, when we are NOT spawning out of CRUs or Uplinks.
About the last question:
I don't think it would ultimately matter, as it is a new life, a new person, just with pieces of a previous personality. Treat them as you would anyone else. |
The Robot Devil
BetaMax. CRONOS.
489
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
If you can prove God then he stops existing. Religion is based on faith and faith is believing in something science can't explain. If science can explain God then God ceases to exist because there will be no more faith. Proving God would create a science and that is the opposite of faith. |
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