DUST Search - Respec System

Malkai Inos wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Godin Thekiller wrote:

Vell0cet wrote:

We need one last respec once CCP gets all of the basic racial suits in there, and the weapons sorted and their skills more-or less finalized. That's it though. Never again after, not for ISK, AUR, X amount of time, nothing. The game will never be done, but let's face facts, the game is basically a late-stage beta lacking major chunks of core content. To draw a parallel with EVE, it'd be like the Amarr and Caldari having no frigates available, and the only battleships are Amarr. CCP has to try to balance as they go since they ended the beta way too early, and one final respec once the core skills, suits and weapons are in place is reasonable, and will create more diversity and specialization, not before and never again.

No, just refund the frame that it was missing from (so no medium frame respecs), and weapon roles (there's a lot that need respecing from this side).

I'm highly anti-respec, I'll spare the wall-o-text here but I could support a suit only point refund in the interests of racial distribution and game diversity. Once the initial line of suits is out however, as it is for medium frames now then no more respecs regardless of future new additions to that frame size. Also no respecs for points outside of the suit specifically..

0.02 ISK
Cross

While i share your opinion of "no respecs" in principle i proposed the solution in #2 as a possible middleground in this discussion IFF we had to have any kind of respec included. I'd like to ask you to look at my posts in this thread and especially #11 for my reasoning as to why i'm not convinced that drawing a somewhat arbitrary line to seperate between new gear that warrants a respec and new gear that doesn't is the right way to permanently settle this issue.

We have to remember that such a solution if it really had to happen should at least aim to solve the issue it's supposed to solve for good rather than temporary. I feel that drawing the line based on the difference between beeing either released or not is not enough to justify a completely different treatment of added gear and in effect will not prevent threads like this in the future.

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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 2912	Posted - 2013.06.27 03:25:00 - [31] - Quote zapfrog wrote: Why is this concept so hard for CCP to grasp? Any other game that has RPG elements in it you can respec. ANY! Of course there usually is a cost; in game money/gold, skill points, real money, items, etc. So why can't CCP implement something like this? Make it cost a large amount of ISK or 20k of AUR or something. The current structure makes it very difficult to try new equipment and vehicles. What if I want to try a heavy, a tank, be a pilot? New players that make spec mistakes or want to try other classes, vehicles, etc. will quickly get annoyed by any lack of respecing system and leave. I would think CCP wants to actually keep players. Because this is New Eden and the rules clearly state that all players who reside in it much accept the permanent consequences of their choices. Bare in mind that Eve Online players use to pester CCP just like you are doing right now into adopting respecs in Eve. CCP refused. If Eve players are unable to sway CCP into putting in respecs, then your chances of convincing CCP as a Dust player is as likely as Sheldon getting laid in Big Bang Theory.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2013.06.27 04:21:00 - [32] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: EVE doesn't have it. It shouldn't be here. Give it up. While I agree with this more or less completely, there is a major issue of asymmetry in the various racial dropsuits and weapons currently. I think getting a roughly even distribution of players specializing in a broad spectrum of roles across the races is an important foundation to build upon. If EVE had come out of beta with no Caldari or Amarr frigates, and only Amarr Battleships at launch, and many of the major weapon systems were non-existant, a respec would have been appropriate for EVE too once those were implemented. Once symmetry has been achieved, it has to be maintained for ongoing content. If there's a way to implement it where only certain dropsuit skills and weapons are refunded, that might be acceptable, but I think one final respec might be the cleanest way to move forward into a racially symmetrical future. As new content is created, people can then spec into it, but with the current setup every heavy out there will be guaranteed to have a significant investment in Amarr Heavy suits. This is weird and very lopsided and will have unintended negative consequences on the market for example. This may be an inappropriate place to discuss it, but I'd like to see the weapon skills re-organized as well so that you spec into a weapon family first (projectile, rail/blaster, missiles, lasers) and then sub-specialize into the various weapons with additional skills for your weapon family. This creates more variety on the battlefield, and mirrors EVE's skill tree more closely. It also makes it harder to chase the FOTM because many people will be deeply invested in certain weapon families and will be better off continuing to specialize in them than chasing the latest about-to-be-nerfed weapon. For example: Amarr Lasers: 3 - Scrambler Rifle Operation 5, Scrambler Rifle Proficiency 3, Scrambler Rapid Reload 2, etc. - Scrambler Sniper Rifle 3, Scrambler Sniper Rapid Reload 2 - Laser Enhancements 4 (pg/cp bonus applies to all laser weapons)- laser heat buildup 4, Laser damage bonus 3 When we get racial symmetry, organizing the skill tree in this way would be better IMO and is part of the reason why I'd like to see a respec (the reason I mention it here).
Eris Ernaga Super Nerds 244	Posted - 2013.06.27 04:40:00 - [33] - Quote Very good suggestion ecpsecially since your not sure what you want to do until late late in the game and the full variety of vehicles and dropsuits aren't here. I mean what about the people who want to skill into the 3 other heavys, 2 other scouts, hover bike, Medium attack vehicle, fighters, mechs, or the MCCS. And hell each of those are gonna come in 4 types with a different skill tree we haven't even begun seeing all the variety in this game yet CCP says thats all the respects.
Danny Las Piedras El Cartel Del Caribe 4	Posted - 2013.06.27 04:51:00 - [34] - Quote $1 a respec
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 2108	Posted - 2013.06.27 04:55:00 - [35] - Quote Danny Las Piedras wrote: $1 a respec Pay-to-Win.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2013.06.27 06:44:00 - [36] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Vell0cet wrote: We need one last respec once CCP gets all of the basic racial suits in there, and the weapons sorted and their skills more-or less finalized. That's it though. Never again after, not for ISK, AUR, X amount of time, nothing. The game will never be done, but let's face facts, the game is basically a late-stage beta lacking major chunks of core content. To draw a parallel with EVE, it'd be like the Amarr and Caldari having no frigates available, and the only battleships are Amarr. CCP has to try to balance as they go since they ended the beta way too early, and one final respec once the core skills, suits and weapons are in place is reasonable, and will create more diversity and specialization, not before and never again. No, just refund the frame that it was missing from (so no medium frame respecs), and weapon roles (there's a lot that need respecing from this side). I'm highly anti-respec, I'll spare the wall-o-text here but I could support a suit only point refund in the interests of racial distribution and game diversity. Once the initial line of suits is out however, as it is for medium frames now then no more respecs regardless of future new additions to that frame size. Also no respecs for points outside of the suit specifically.. 0.02 ISK Cross While i share your opinion of "no respecs" in principle i proposed the solution in #2 as a possible middleground in this discussion IFF we had to have any kind of respec included. I'd like to ask you to look at my posts in this thread and especially #11 for my reasoning as to why i'm not convinced that drawing a somewhat arbitrary line to seperate between new gear that warrants a respec and new gear that doesn't is the right way to permanently settle this issue. We have to remember that such a solution if it really had to happen should at least aim to solve the issue it's supposed to solve for good rather than temporary. I feel that drawing the line based on the difference between beeing either released or not is not enough to justify a completely different treatment of added gear and in effect will not prevent threads like this in the future. I like your proposed idea in the linked post #2. Having said that there's an element that to me must be reiterated (included?), that being it is a one time use. Not once per role, frame, race, or any other effect. One time. So long as respecs are not a repeatable mechanics they avoid most of the issues I've raised in the other threads as soon as they cease to be finite in that manner they begin to snowball into problem after problem with the major question being "how fast". So my revision would be Malkai Inos wrote: My proposal boils down to "Grace period for one limited respec from one racial equivalent to another ~~whenever a new racial equivalent gets released~~". True it's somewhat arbitrary to draw a line at any point if the gate is opened, a major reason I'm against opening the gate at all, but it's also true that the further away something is the easier it is for a player to save up the points needed in advance and lose nothing from their other investment as they'll still be able to use the new stuff day one with a bit of planing. In fact saving and planing is specifically what I do, it gives choices meaning and it's part of what drew me to both EVE and Dust. Removing the persistent world in which choices matter and everything becomes a lot less interesting to me. I admit that may bias my perception which is why when objecting to respecs I try to expose my reasoning to scrutiny. I completely agree that racial symmetry matters and would like to see it supported more fully, but as vital as I find that if it's a choice between having that quickly with recurring respecs in dust, or having it much more slowly with no respecs I'll take the slow and steady path (at least until persuaded otherwise ). Cheers, Cross
zapfrog KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2	Posted - 2013.06.27 11:46:00 - [37] - Quote When people don't troll and actually intelligently discuss the issue whether they are for or against makes for a better understanding. Now that people have discussed the negatives I can see their points. I'm liking some of the ideas that share a comprimise.
strikerprime DRAGOON SINGULARITY 0	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:20:00 - [38] - Quote I think its unfair how we can spend real money on this game to spec into the stuff we want just to have the company nerf our gear. They give a respect for every nerf we get. Or at least make a buy able respect ether isk and real money just really expensive with isk or something. I mean come on be fair with us.
LuckyLuke Wargan HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 181	Posted - 2013.06.29 06:07:00 - [39] - Quote I wanted to be an AV specialist running Swarm and AR... but could not because technically it is impossible to settle for 2 ligh weapons... So I gave up on my dream fit, to become once again a logi, because I am more efficient with AR than an SMG, even though I love swarm. Now they are releasing the commando, which would have allowed me to run my dream AV fit, but I can't now that I am fully spec into logi... and I am sure I am not the only one with that problem. So they come out with new classes that makes you salivate thinking.... oouh! That's what I would have wanted was it there to begin with... but you can't. it's too late, and if you are a casual player like me, it's going to take you another 6-8 month before you can spec into what you really want to do. That's why I am in favor of respec.
dday3six Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 31	Posted - 2013.06.29 06:31:00 - [40] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Danny Las Piedras wrote: $1 a respec Pay-to-Win. The more I think about how a greater SP pool means better gear, the more I start to feel boosters and even lower skill requiring AUR items only escape being labeled PtW because they're not an instance advantage.

RKKR The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 127	Posted - 2013.06.29 07:35:00 - [41] - Quote I'm feeling like a parrot but what do you guys think of untraining one skill-level a week with a loss of X% SP of that levels SP?
zapfrog KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 4	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:11:00 - [42] - Quote LuckyLuke Wargan wrote: I wanted to be an AV specialist running Swarm and AR... but could not because technically it is impossible to settle for 2 ligh weapons... So I gave up on my dream fit, to become once again a logi, because I am more efficient with AR than an SMG, even though I love swarm. Now they are releasing the commando, which would have allowed me to run my dream AV fit, but I can't now that I am fully spec into logi... and I am sure I am not the only one with that problem. So they come out with new classes that makes you salivate thinking.... oouh! That's what I would have wanted was it there to begin with... but you can't. it's too late, and if you are a casual player like me, it's going to take you another 6-8 month before you can spec into what you really want to do. That's why I am in favor of respec. This is my problem. Even though I've been playing for over a year I come up with new fits only to realize that it's going to take me another 6-8 months to be able to do them. This is the core of my issue and why respecs could be good.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:47:00 - [43] - Quote zapfrog wrote: This is my problem. Even though I've been playing for over a year I come up with new fits only to realize that it's going to take me another 6-8 months to be able to do them. This is the core of my issue and why respecs could be good. 6-8 months to be totally maxed out you mean right? You should be able to get a basic Commando fit going rather quickly, plus you still have all of your existing skills to work with as you work towards your new goal. I don't see a problem with this at all. The way the skill tree is designed is you get the biggest benefits quickly, and the smaller benefits have the large SP requirements. This means most people should be able to get a decent STD suit with decent mods fairly quickly.
GVGISDEAD Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:05:00 - [44] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: zapfrog wrote: This is my problem. Even though I've been playing for over a year I come up with new fits only to realize that it's going to take me another 6-8 months to be able to do them. This is the core of my issue and why respecs could be good. 6-8 months to be totally maxed out you mean right? You should be able to get a basic Commando fit going rather quickly, plus you still have all of your existing skills to work with as you work towards your new goal. I don't see a problem with this at all. The way the skill tree is designed is you get the biggest benefits quickly, and the smaller benefits have the large SP requirements. This means most people should be able to get a decent STD suit with decent mods fairly quickly. i think CCP believes that losing the player base is less important than changing their mind-set AND adapting to the industry
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:17:00 - [45] - Quote The only reason people don't want respecs is that they already got theirs and are maxed out in their specialty. Giving respecs to new players actually gives them a chance to catch up and being competitive by taking their badly spent points due to lack of knowledge of the game into a concentration. God forbid some competition and a retention of new players.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:25:00 - [46] - Quote loumanchew wrote: The only reason people don't want respecs is that they already got theirs and are maxed out in their specialty. Giving respecs to new players actually gives them a chance to catch up and being competitive by taking their badly spent points due to lack of knowledge of the game into a concentration. God forbid some competition and a retention of new players. Or we are against it because choices should have permanent consequences in New Eden. CCP can cater to the people who are interested in Dust for the long haul and are willing to support it over the next 10 years, or they can cater to the crowd that wants to turn Dust into Halo and see more newbies retained at the expense of loosing it's long-term support base, and then watch their numbers plummet when the next new shiny shooter is released in 6-months. Regarding people who want respecs, no cap on SP gain, gear-based pools to keep them safe, and who don't want to work for their goals and invest time/effort in: This sums it up best.
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.06.29 19:39:00 - [47] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: loumanchew wrote: The only reason people don't want respecs is that they already got theirs and are maxed out in their specialty. Giving respecs to new players actually gives them a chance to catch up and being competitive by taking their badly spent points due to lack of knowledge of the game into a concentration. God forbid some competition and a retention of new players. Or we are against it because choices should have permanent consequences in New Eden. CCP can cater to the people who are interested in Dust for the long haul and are willing to support it over the next 10 years, or they can cater to the crowd that wants to turn Dust into Halo and see more newbies retained at the expense of loosing it's long-term support base, and then watch their numbers plummet when the next new shiny shooter is released in 6-months. Regarding people who want respecs, no cap on SP gain, gear-based pools to keep them safe, and who don't want to work for their goals and invest time/effort in: This sums it up best. You are assuming that there is a correlation between respecs and long term involvement. Things are being nerfed, buffed and changed at the rate of a beta so it makes no sense to say ''you chose this class!'' when the original decision was based on other variables that are no longer valid. Once the core is out and there is balance between classes I would agree with a reasonable respecing system like once a year but until then I fully understand players wanting to have regular respecs on patch releases.
dday3six Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 32	Posted - 2013.06.29 20:01:00 - [48] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: loumanchew wrote: The only reason people don't want respecs is that they already got theirs and are maxed out in their specialty. Giving respecs to new players actually gives them a chance to catch up and being competitive by taking their badly spent points due to lack of knowledge of the game into a concentration. God forbid some competition and a retention of new players. Or we are against it because choices should have permanent consequences in New Eden. CCP can cater to the people who are interested in Dust for the long haul and are willing to support it over the next 10 years, or they can cater to the crowd that wants to turn Dust into Halo and see more newbies retained at the expense of loosing it's long-term support base, and then watch their numbers plummet when the next new shiny shooter is released in 6-months. Regarding people who want respecs, no cap on SP gain, gear-based pools to keep them safe, and who don't want to work for their goals and invest time/effort in: This sums it up best. The key differentiation between Dust and Eve is how it's revenue gain is set up. With a free to play business model simply playing is not techinally supporting Dust, players need to actively purchase AUR to truly be supporting the game. That translates to Dust needing a larger pool of players in general whether new or old. It's also very easy to set here a decade prior and say "I'll still be playing Dust 10 years from now". It seems to be chic among some forum goers in fact. However it's very hard to say what will actually happen 10 years from now.
LuckyLuke Wargan HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 183	Posted - 2013.06.30 00:55:00 - [49] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: zapfrog wrote: This is my problem. Even though I've been playing for over a year I come up with new fits only to realize that it's going to take me another 6-8 months to be able to do them. This is the core of my issue and why respecs could be good. 6-8 months to be totally maxed out you mean right? You should be able to get a basic Commando fit going rather quickly, plus you still have all of your existing skills to work with as you work towards your new goal. I don't see a problem with this at all. The way the skill tree is designed is you get the biggest benefits quickly, and the smaller benefits have the large SP requirements. This means most people should be able to get a decent STD suit with decent mods fairly quickly. I have been playing since May of last year, and since the last reset too and I have only about 6 million SP... For casual players, it's a real pain to see those game changes and not be able to respec. Forgive me for having a life.
zapfrog KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 10	Posted - 2013.07.30 16:26:00 - [50] - Quote RoundEy3 wrote: Oh this topic will never die. You know if you're proposing spending large sums of AUR on a respec so you can use other equipment, you could instead buy the AUR variants for much less probably while you skill into them. No this topic will never die...at all! Just spent 880000sp to try forg/hmg/heavy and decided it wasn't for me so now it sits there and 880,000sp is gone

Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 424	Posted - 2013.07.30 17:17:00 - [51] - Quote zapfrog wrote: Actually in FO: New Vegas you can and the Skyrim: Dragonborne DLC included a patch for respeccing. By collecting some random piece junk right? And you were expected to pay 20$ for it.
Herman Hardon Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 13	Posted - 2013.07.30 21:53:00 - [52] - Quote RoundEy3 wrote: Oh this topic will never die. You know if you're proposing spending large sums of AUR on a respec so you can use other equipment, you could instead buy the AUR variants for much less probably while you skill into them. Don't invest in aur , they can sell you an item then take a third of that item away without any penalty . You can buy a 30 day booster and then they can tell you its only good for 10 days .


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