DUST Search - Respec System

Malkai Inos wrote:

The problem is that the definition of "basic" is currently way too vague to draw a definite line of when this respec is supposed to happen. Is it after we get racial variants for the roles we have now? When all known but missing roles are finalized? What does "all" even mean within a game that is already planning on adding new content that might not come this or even next year? Respec everyone because eve <-> dust trading including its skillset?

I'll just quote myself from this thread for a proposal that solves this definition problem and can easily be in effect indefinitely without making respecs a commonplace. It has to be said that i am strictly anti respec and that this proposal is not aimed to appease players that would like to have unconditional respecs but rather fix the systemic problem that slow content cycles cause wich lead to the current outcry in favor of unconditional respecs.

Malkai Inos wrote:

The problem is there is no "everything" in terms of content in an evolving game and the definition of "core" is equally vague. More content will be added throughout the game's lifespan. We will get new suits, vehicles and weapons, each with their own skillsets not just in the next 6-12 months but in five years aswell (for as long as dust exists, really) so "everything" will mean something different every 6 months and some of these additions will become such a fundamental part of the battlefield once they arrive so that we would consider them "core" today if only we knew about them already.

The only possible justification for limited respecs after adding new content that i find actually usefull is "respec for racial symmetry" i.e the notion that any type of gear or niche should be represented in all four races and people should not be penalized for preferring a racial variant that is not yet available. For example, heavy users can opt in to relocate their heavy suit skills to another racial equivalent once it's released.

This should not apply to the release of completely new roles as all players can choose to specialize into that role at the same time, even if it's not their preferred racial variant. It does however apply to any role that gets a racial variant added so once you specced into amarr commando just as everyone else who wanted to play a commando you can have your amarr commando skills changed to your preferred racial variant once. This means that no one is excluded from playing that role from the second it's released and everyone can switch their SP into the preferred race after release so that in effect no one is really penalized in the long run.

The difference to saying "core" stuff is that this always only applies to partially existing roles where some players are able to specialize into their preferred race sooner than others and don't have to to invest the same SP for the same playstile twice.


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Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2013.06.26 19:45:00 - [1] - Quote We need one last respec once CCP gets all of the basic racial suits in there, and the weapons sorted and their skills more-or less finalized. That's it though. Never again after, not for ISK, AUR, X amount of time, nothing. The game will never be done, but let's face facts, the game is basically a late-stage beta lacking major chunks of core content. To draw a parallel with EVE, it'd be like the Amarr and Caldari having no frigates available, and the only battleships are Amarr. CCP has to try to balance as they go since they ended the beta way too early, and one final respec once the core skills, suits and weapons are in place is reasonable, and will create more diversity and specialization, not before and never again.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.06.26 22:14:00 - [2] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: The problem is that the definition of "basic" is currently way too vague to draw a definite line of when this respec is supposed to happen. Is it after we get racial variants for the roles we have now? When all known but missing roles are finalized? What does "all" even mean within a game that is already planning on adding new content that might not come this or even next year? Respec everyone because eve <-> dust trading including its skillset? I'll just quote myself from this thread for a proposal that solves this definition problem and can easily be in effect indefinitely without making respecs a commonplace. It has to be said that i am strictly anti respec and that this proposal is not aimed to appease players that would like to have unconditional respecs but rather fix the systemic problem that slow content cycles cause wich lead to the current outcry in favor of unconditional respecs. Malkai Inos wrote: The problem is there is no "everything" in terms of content in an evolving game and the definition of "core" is equally vague. More content will be added throughout the game's lifespan. We will get new suits, vehicles and weapons, each with their own skillsets not just in the next 6-12 months but in five years aswell (for as long as dust exists, really) so "everything" will mean something different every 6 months and some of these additions will become such a fundamental part of the battlefield once they arrive so that we would consider them "core" today if only we knew about them already. The only possible justification for limited respecs after adding new content that i find actually usefull is "respec for racial symmetry" i.e the notion that any type of gear or niche should be represented in all four races and people should not be penalized for preferring a racial variant that is not yet available. For example, heavy users can opt in to relocate their heavy suit skills to another racial equivalent once it's released. This should not apply to the release of completely new roles as all players can choose to specialize into that role at the same time, even if it's not their preferred racial variant. It does however apply to any role that gets a racial variant added so once you specced into amarr commando just as everyone else who wanted to play a commando you can have your amarr commando skills changed to your preferred racial variant once. This means that no one is excluded from playing that role from the second it's released and everyone can switch their SP into the preferred race after release so that in effect no one is really penalized in the long run. The difference to saying "core" stuff is that this always only applies to partially existing roles where some players are able to specialize into their preferred race sooner than others and don't have to to invest the same SP for the same playstile twice. I agree that this is tricky to pin down and to draw a hard line when things are fuzzy. Your quoted post articulated my concerns better than I could, but in my mind, the key (as you pointed out) is racial symmetry. I think that's the benchmark that we can say the core gameplay is there. In my mind, this should be the highest priority. I would like to see every race have heavy, medium and light suits, each race have a version of the AR, HMG, and Sniper Rifle. As well as racial symmetry with all of the vehicles. Once this is achieved (and it should be the number 1 priority, WAY ahead of templar events and commando suits etc.) then there is one final respec. What I don't want is every heavy vet to be in an Amarr dropsuit, or every sniper wearing Gallente scout suits. If it were feasible to implement the racial migration that you proposed, that would be acceptable. I fear it's going to be too hard to implement properly and one last respec seems like a reasonable solution that's easier to implement and avoids all of the weird edge-cases that will arise from a migration. After it's implemented, when new content is added, people can skill into it as they please (and new content should always be added symmetrically across all races from then on).
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2013.06.26 22:34:00 - [3] - Quote low genius wrote: we don't. by then you'll be able to run 3 proto suits. My concern is for racial symmetry and balance. Think about how the market plays out when every heavy player is guaranteed to be skilled into Amarr drop suits. I'd like to see things more spread out and evenly distributed.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2013.06.27 04:21:00 - [4] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: EVE doesn't have it. It shouldn't be here. Give it up. While I agree with this more or less completely, there is a major issue of asymmetry in the various racial dropsuits and weapons currently. I think getting a roughly even distribution of players specializing in a broad spectrum of roles across the races is an important foundation to build upon. If EVE had come out of beta with no Caldari or Amarr frigates, and only Amarr Battleships at launch, and many of the major weapon systems were non-existant, a respec would have been appropriate for EVE too once those were implemented. Once symmetry has been achieved, it has to be maintained for ongoing content. If there's a way to implement it where only certain dropsuit skills and weapons are refunded, that might be acceptable, but I think one final respec might be the cleanest way to move forward into a racially symmetrical future. As new content is created, people can then spec into it, but with the current setup every heavy out there will be guaranteed to have a significant investment in Amarr Heavy suits. This is weird and very lopsided and will have unintended negative consequences on the market for example. This may be an inappropriate place to discuss it, but I'd like to see the weapon skills re-organized as well so that you spec into a weapon family first (projectile, rail/blaster, missiles, lasers) and then sub-specialize into the various weapons with additional skills for your weapon family. This creates more variety on the battlefield, and mirrors EVE's skill tree more closely. It also makes it harder to chase the FOTM because many people will be deeply invested in certain weapon families and will be better off continuing to specialize in them than chasing the latest about-to-be-nerfed weapon. For example: Amarr Lasers: 3 - Scrambler Rifle Operation 5, Scrambler Rifle Proficiency 3, Scrambler Rapid Reload 2, etc. - Scrambler Sniper Rifle 3, Scrambler Sniper Rapid Reload 2 - Laser Enhancements 4 (pg/cp bonus applies to all laser weapons)- laser heat buildup 4, Laser damage bonus 3 When we get racial symmetry, organizing the skill tree in this way would be better IMO and is part of the reason why I'd like to see a respec (the reason I mention it here).
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.06.29 17:47:00 - [5] - Quote zapfrog wrote: This is my problem. Even though I've been playing for over a year I come up with new fits only to realize that it's going to take me another 6-8 months to be able to do them. This is the core of my issue and why respecs could be good. 6-8 months to be totally maxed out you mean right? You should be able to get a basic Commando fit going rather quickly, plus you still have all of your existing skills to work with as you work towards your new goal. I don't see a problem with this at all. The way the skill tree is designed is you get the biggest benefits quickly, and the smaller benefits have the large SP requirements. This means most people should be able to get a decent STD suit with decent mods fairly quickly.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.06.29 18:25:00 - [6] - Quote loumanchew wrote: The only reason people don't want respecs is that they already got theirs and are maxed out in their specialty. Giving respecs to new players actually gives them a chance to catch up and being competitive by taking their badly spent points due to lack of knowledge of the game into a concentration. God forbid some competition and a retention of new players. Or we are against it because choices should have permanent consequences in New Eden. CCP can cater to the people who are interested in Dust for the long haul and are willing to support it over the next 10 years, or they can cater to the crowd that wants to turn Dust into Halo and see more newbies retained at the expense of loosing it's long-term support base, and then watch their numbers plummet when the next new shiny shooter is released in 6-months. Regarding people who want respecs, no cap on SP gain, gear-based pools to keep them safe, and who don't want to work for their goals and invest time/effort in: This sums it up best.