DUST Search - 'We need Prototype Tanks to beat AV"

All Channels

General Discussions

'We need Prototype Tanks to beat AV"

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 230	Posted - 2013.06.21 03:00:00 - [1] - Quote ^ is a sentiment that you will read on the forum every time someone brings up AV versus Vehicles. I find it curious that this seems to be the logic that many people jump to as a way of being more cool headed. This is admirable, of course. It is better to offer a simple solution than just to cry foul about A) AV Grenades are capable of killing a Tank with almost no investment, B) AV SP and ISK cost is like 1/5 of what it is for Pilots, C) It does too much damage, or D) some combination of A-C. It seems to make sense: "Advanced Forge Guns are meant to kill Advanced Tanks, so of course they are going to shred basic Tanks too quickly for the Tanker to counteract. What we need is Advanced and Prototype Tanks." I have never really accepted this as a real solution. I can really understand why people get to that reasoning but I do not see it working out that way, for a myriad of reasons as well as a few problems with the above sentiment. How can Prototype Tanks be balanced to be able to hold/react against Prototype AV weapons while not just running over public matches? The primary reason why Tanks were nerfed the Uprising match is because of public matches. CCP clearly doesn't want Tanks to be the complete and total Murder Wagons. This means that the difference between a Prototype Tank and a normal Tank will likely not be too extremely. Looking to the Surya and Sagaris (which I am going to label as Advanced), they cost 6 times as much ISK, required ~7 times more SP investment in Caldari/Gallente Tanks (from 49,760 to 348,240), and yielded maybe 600 more HP and a slot that was secondary to what the Pilot actually wanted (High for Armor, Low for Shields). If those type of numbers return, I see minute difference in a Pilot's survivability. Why do people think that Advanced X is required to deal with Advanced Y? How many people have you killed that had Prototype weapons/suits while you did not? My 'Exile' Assault Rifle has killed more Prototype Suits than my Duvolle could ever hope for. No Ground Forces go Prototype Assault Suits simply to 'deal' with the Duvolle. Having the belief "AV is not a problem; the lack of Advanced Tanks is the problem" seems to fall flat in my opinion. This is probably just my imagine/eye for design failing but what could a Prototype Armor Tank have to fight against a Prototype AV weapon? An extra low slot might mean slightly more armor or resistance but can it make up for the 30% damage bonus that the AV weapon got from going Proto? It is a really annoying issue, with both sides having their points. The Tanker says "We spend more ISK, more SP, and you kill us so easily" while the AV user states "Nothing else can kill you so your counter should kill you quickly." I do not know what can be done with the balance between Vehicles and AV, because I do believe it to be a little too much in the Infantryman's favor, but I do not agree that the solution is Advanced and Prototype Tanks. I wish everyone the very best.
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1084	Posted - 2013.06.21 03:12:00 - [2] - Quote Tbh, I think a falloff on forges and rails would do all vehicles a world of good, rather than applying full damage at any range. AV grenades also need to seriously do less damage. Any idiot with a grenade slot can outperform all other types of AV, and if said idiot also lays out a nano hive, you're dead. Tanks / dropships, as they are, are fine. The AV is a bit out of whack.
Mikael Murray Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2013.06.21 03:14:00 - [3] - Quote This is the end of op av i hope. WAIT FOR THE PROTO TANKS!!!!!!
Syther Shadows The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 145	Posted - 2013.06.21 03:58:00 - [4] - Quote just keep in mind he wants PROTO TANKS TO BEAT AV ......... He wants to be able to win against ANTI VEHICLE (sure AV vs tank is bad atm but TANK SHOULD NEVER WIN AGAINST AV) its like saying rock should win against everything ... (and its stupid atm i can run scout suit with swarm and smg and win against tank driver's on-ground and in vehicles)
Aythadis Smith The Generals EoN. 25	Posted - 2013.06.21 04:07:00 - [5] - Quote Tanks ( most things in my opinion) need to be balanced from the top to the bottom rung. Start with the high and work it down the food chain. Step by step. I think it was tank stops in game modes that were too small for such, and completely @@@@@ and pillaged.
Xender17 Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 180	Posted - 2013.06.21 04:11:00 - [6] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Tbh, I think a falloff on forges and rails would do all vehicles a world of good, rather than applying full damage at any range. AV grenades also need to seriously do less damage. Any idiot with a grenade slot can outperform all other types of AV, and if said idiot also lays out a nano hive, you're dead. Tanks / dropships, as they are, are fine. The AV is a bit out of whack. The railgun better a ton of damage close range than... But that would defeat the purpose of a LR AV vehicle weapon.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 325	Posted - 2013.06.21 04:38:00 - [7] - Quote Tanks are fun but after a team switches to AV its up to ground troops to make them switch back. I'm learning to melt infantry then fall back and let my infantry deal with enemy AV. when I see alot of AR on the killfeed I smash forward again. It seems effective.
Justin Tymes Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2013.06.21 04:51:00 - [8] - Quote I don't like the argument either. Like I said in another thread, proto-tanks completely ignore the fact that Militia gear is outclassed, it's still suppose to be effective against everything in the game. Standard AV gear will be doing next to nothing to proto-tanks, which will require you to skill into AV to damage them. If proto-tanks require you to skill into anything above Standard to be at least effective against them, they shouldn't be in this game.
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 149	Posted - 2013.06.21 05:11:00 - [9] - Quote Current tanks should be a lot cheaper. Like half their current prices. At least temporarily, until there's better balance between AV and vehicles. My main reason is because the prices should also be a balancing factor. Btw, my argument is not that "we need proto tanks to beat AV", but we need advanced/proto tanks to gauge the balance of AV. Why, because, assuming roughly equivalent competency between both players, if you compare how someone skilled into standard-level AV fares against someone simply skilled standard-level tanks right now, it SEEMS fairly balanced. But currently, someone breaks out the advanced- or prototype-level AV swarm launchers, FG, or AV grenades and is sufficiently specced into them, and the vehicle gets trashed in no time. Drivers/pilots rightfully complain that they're investing too much into the vehicles by comparison. I'm guessing that AV would need some nerfs and vehicles (especially dropships) would need some buffing. But everything right now is speculation.
Exergonic TeamPlayers EoN. 107	Posted - 2013.06.21 05:11:00 - [10] - Quote The people who drive tanks and have the skill to drive the tank will benefit the most from proto tanks Some one who truly has no idea how to play a tanker will still get run over seeing as this game is more about skill then gear Will allow for more front line battles because we don't get lol3shot

Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 338	Posted - 2013.06.21 05:23:00 - [11] - Quote Its like this...... I don't go into a pub match using my standard Dropsuit expecting bullets to not kill me after 5-10 shots. So why should you in a standard tank not expect your equivalent of bullets to not kill you in 5-10 shots??? If your getting killed by anything less then 5 AV grenades then either A.) your tank has a weak tank, or B.) there using Proto AV nades (possibly advanced) and that does cost a considerable amount of SP which justifies its power in my eyes. So there you have it..... Its unfortunate you cant be immune to AV but without how it is now im trying to see how it won't be like the old builds were tanks just raped everything.
Exergonic TeamPlayers EoN. 107	Posted - 2013.06.21 05:34:00 - [12] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Its like this...... I don't go into a pub match using my standard Dropsuit expecting bullets to not kill me after 5-10 shots. So why should you in a standard tank not expect your equivalent of bullets to not kill you in 5-10 shots??? If your getting killed by anything less then 5 AV grenades then either A.) your tank has a weak tank, or B.) there using Proto AV nades (possibly advanced) and that does cost a considerable amount of SP which justifies its power in my eyes. So there you have it..... Its unfortunate you cant be immune to AV but without how it is now im trying to see how it won't be like the old builds were tanks just raped everything. We don't want to be Immune... we just want something better then STD tanks Enforcers are glass cannons and really shouldn't even be considered an ADV tank Our STD tanks are used for those CQC or what i like to call the hot zone The STD tank is fine i don't think its Underpowered or Overpowered... I don't feel as tho AV is overpowered or Underpowered as well We just need our other tanks You would have been just as ****** if they took away your proto suit for something weaker then your STD suit
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1085	Posted - 2013.06.21 05:36:00 - [13] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Enforcers are glass cannons and really shouldn't even be considered an ADV tank Enforcers are actually not ADV tanks. It's a standard tank, much like Gallente Medium Dropsuits 3 gives you access to Gallente Assault 1, which is a standard dropsuit.
Justin Tymes Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2013.06.21 06:03:00 - [14] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Marston VC wrote: Its like this...... I don't go into a pub match using my standard Dropsuit expecting bullets to not kill me after 5-10 shots. So why should you in a standard tank not expect your equivalent of bullets to not kill you in 5-10 shots??? If your getting killed by anything less then 5 AV grenades then either A.) your tank has a weak tank, or B.) there using Proto AV nades (possibly advanced) and that does cost a considerable amount of SP which justifies its power in my eyes. So there you have it..... Its unfortunate you cant be immune to AV but without how it is now im trying to see how it won't be like the old builds were tanks just raped everything. We don't want to be Immune... we just want something better then STD tanks Enforcers are glass cannons and really shouldn't even be considered an ADV tank Our STD tanks are used for those CQC or what i like to call the hot zone The STD tank is fine i don't think its Underpowered or Overpowered... I don't feel as tho AV is overpowered or Underpowered as well We just need our other tanks You would have been just as ****** if they took away your proto suit for something weaker then your STD suit You can't just ask for proto-tanks so be able to take on proto-tanks, and completely ignore how it would affect standard gear. The answer isn't "HTFU and skill into higher level AV", when the proto tank will be the only thing in the game that will require you to do so. This game is based on standard gear, we can't make an exception for tanks. There are a couple of thing that can be looked into; proto AV damage, tank SP and ISK cost, vehicle PG, but adding proto-tanks would screw over the game's design.
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 559	Posted - 2013.06.21 12:23:00 - [15] - Quote Exergonic wrote: The people who drive tanks and have the skill to drive the tank will benefit the most from proto tanks Some one who truly has no idea how to play a tanker will still get run over seeing as this game is more about skill then gear Will allow for more front line battles because we don't get lol3shot Yes. Once again, there are only 20 tankers in the game who would be able to pull proto tanks in pubs and not get them milled every time. Outside of PC, the chances of funding a good tanker in a proto tanks is tiny. Also, balancing the best tankers against the worst av in pubs is asinine. It needs to be best tankers vs best av on PC.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1323	Posted - 2013.06.21 12:41:00 - [16] - Quote So an infantry dude who doesnt use vehicles gets to use milita/basic/adv/proto everything including weapons/mods/equipment and dropsuits doesnt want vehicle users to have the same What a suprise Adv/proto tanks/vehicles are needed, they are a requirement because we need vehicles which can stand up to adv/proto AV As for pub matches its a pub match you infantry AR514 players all bring out proto stuff in these matches then cry about it when i run you over in my logi LAV, it was your choice and your fit is still cheaper than my HAV if i lose one Sagaris/Surya were advanced and cost 1.2mil for the hull and we gained an extra slot in the useless area I want proper advanced/proto where we gain at least 1 high and 1 low slot, compared to dropsuits you can go from basic 2h/2l to 5h/4l on some suits I want to see a proper advanced tank go to 6low/3high and vice versa for shield and proto 7low/4high vice versa for shield, at least with CPU/PG increases so i can use them extra slots and i would whack on a nice SP investment to boot and i would price the hull at 5mil and 10mil or whatever but i would pay for that right to be able to bring it out in a pub match because i invested my time/SP and ISK so i could do that if i wanted Same with LAVs/DS we need more variety and vehicles which can stand up to adv/proto AV, DS are useless atm and LAVs are pretty good for once but i want a proto LAV to boot So what if i stomp randoms infantry players do the same thing and what do they say 'well i got the SP/ISK to do it' well as a vehicle user so do i but the real usage for the advanced/proto vehicles would be for PC matches so it can go against advanced/proto AV
Blammmo Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 114	Posted - 2013.06.21 13:05:00 - [17] - Quote BRING ON THE PROTO TANKS!! DOWN WITH AV PLAYERS!!! LOL
Duran Lex Silver Talon Corporation 15	Posted - 2013.06.21 13:15:00 - [18] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Tbh, I think a falloff on forges and rails would do all vehicles a world of good, rather than applying full damage at any range. AV grenades also need to seriously do less damage. Any idiot with a grenade slot can outperform all other types of AV, and if said idiot also lays out a nano hive, you're dead. Tanks / dropships, as they are, are fine. The AV is a bit out of whack. To be honest, i'd like it if all my forge gun shots correctly registered the hits.
ReGnYuM TeamPlayers EoN. 284	Posted - 2013.06.21 13:51:00 - [19] - Quote Hard counter If you want a longer explanation I will give you one. However, I don't think its necessary
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 566	Posted - 2013.06.21 14:19:00 - [20] - Quote I didn't start tanking to kill AV, I started tanking to kill all the ar's that killed me as a scrub, and they're still paying for it ;) Now i get to slap around AV wen i get proto havs. We will get our day, tanks. We will get our day...

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 417	Posted - 2013.06.21 14:25:00 - [21] - Quote Pub match modes that don't allow vehicles. IE ambush on a small map would be great. Even small skirmishes with only a few objectives with no vehicles. The issue for tanks is that CCP does it's balancing based on pub matches. We've got vets with 10 times the SP of noobs and we can run around face raping them with no regard for our clone. CCP should take a week and allow their devs to play in corps with players to see what really goes on. I don't think they understand the issues at all. Reading forums and looking at data on a screen isn't doing it.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 236	Posted - 2013.06.21 14:35:00 - [22] - Quote I find it amazing that people assume I am complaining over some problem. I am not. I do think that certain AV weapons are too powerful but I do not want to discuss that in this thread as I believe it can be stated elsewhere. This thread is entirely stating to the Tanking Community, those that have said "Giving us Prototype Tanks will undo a lot of the imbalance of Tanks vs. AV as AV has Prototype and we do not." The only negative thing I have gone with is to politely, and hopefully rationally, disagree with the idea that Prototype Tanks would be sufficiently better as to be a 'reasonable' match up against Prototype AV weapons. I don't believe Prototype Tanks should beat AV right out. I am not complaining about a Hard Counter. I only believe that unless there is some drastic change in how the methodology of Tanks have been, I do not see Advanced or Prototype Tanks being much better than just a Standard Tank. Be well.
Xender17 Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 181	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:27:00 - [23] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: I don't like the argument either. Like I said in another thread, proto-tanks completely ignore the fact that Militia gear is outclassed, it's still suppose to be effective against everything in the game. Standard AV gear will be doing next to nothing to proto-tanks, which will require you to skill into AV to damage them. If proto-tanks require you to skill into anything above Standard to be at least effective against them, they shouldn't be in this game. So people don't need to skill into AV to kill tanks... Fair.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 2028	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:34:00 - [24] - Quote Honestly, I think vehicles should only have roles and no meta levels like infantry gear. That said, if that's going to be the case, the development pussyfooting needs to stop. Vehicles need to be able to shrug off 2-3 guys with Militia AV if they driver fits them well enough. It shouldn't be some kind of grind to be able to make a vehicle that can survive a few seconds against a small group of guys switching to their Starter AV fits. Why put any SP into better AV weapons if you can just have your squad pull out Militia Swarms and destroy everything on the field. That said, we need an effective unguided AV weapon for each race, and for that to replace the Swarms in the Starter AV fits. Having every player in the game equipped with an unlimited free seeker weapon is just dumb.
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 32	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:42:00 - [25] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Tbh, I think a falloff on forges and rails would do all vehicles a world of good, rather than applying full damage at any range. AV grenades also need to seriously do less damage. Any idiot with a grenade slot can outperform all other types of AV, and if said idiot also lays out a nano hive, you're dead. Tanks / dropships, as they are, are fine. The AV is a bit out of whack. I would absolutely love to see some of these fixes, with minor changes. -Falloff to Forge Guns (would also stop the pitiful sniping with them, doing the opposite of what they were intended to do) -Rail guns are actually fine. They have that silly charge up, but their balance is that they are placed in terrible spots all throughout the map. I don't agree with AV grenades being over powered. If an AV grenade has blast radius, it should do damage based on how much of the vehicle is within the blast radius. This would solve the problem on LAV's doing a LOT more damage on LAV's as grenades should, and a lot less damage on Tanks, as they should. That way it takes more people to kill tanks, and less people to kill LAV's. Right now we are witnessing the complete opposite. It takes a squad of people to kill an LAV, and just one person to kill a tank. Fix this and you have a balanced system.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 315	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:45:00 - [26] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: I don't like the argument either. Like I said in another thread, proto-tanks completely ignore the fact that Militia gear is outclassed, it's still suppose to be effective against everything in the game. Standard AV gear will be doing next to nothing to proto-tanks, which will require you to skill into AV to damage them. If proto-tanks require you to skill into anything above Standard to be at least effective against them, they shouldn't be in this game. Wow you made it over here as well . Folks go check this guys thread before taking him seriously . He dosent want proto tanks on the basis thar his malitia swarm will be usless aginst them . Honestly hes mental.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 315	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:49:00 - [27] - Quote Also id like to read whare it says malitia gear is supposed to be fully effecrive against proto gear . Im still laughung cos in his thread he said std tanks were op becaus he couldent malitia it to death but wait for this malitia tanks are fine because he can solo them in standerd gear wow I love his logic.
Fox Gaden DUST University Ivy League 534	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:51:00 - [28] - Quote Armour tanks need damage type specific resistance modules that have a much higher resistance rating. This would give them the option of boosting Explosive damage resistance at the expense of leaving a hole for other damage types.
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 192	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:53:00 - [29] - Quote So then let's take away your PRO AV. If you don't want us to have PRO and/or ADV tanks, then start up a petition for CCP to take away your PRO AV. And that would include the PRO AV grenades, too. Deal?
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 192	Posted - 2013.06.21 18:00:00 - [30] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: I don't like the argument either. Like I said in another thread, proto-tanks completely ignore the fact that Militia gear is outclassed, it's still suppose to be effective against everything in the game. Standard AV gear will be doing next to nothing to proto-tanks, which will require you to skill into AV to damage them. If proto-tanks require you to skill into anything above Standard to be at least effective against them, they shouldn't be in this game. But now you're getting heavy commando suits that have two light weapon slots in it. That's two Wiyrkomi swarms, or a Wiyrkomi and a Duvolle. Now, all you have to do is give up an equipment slot to destroy us and those that just got out of the battle academy. What more do you want? Have you ever been on the receiving end of a prototype swarm launcher? Militia gear is supposed to be pathetically weak, but guys still throw those on their prototype suits stacked with damage mods so that they never have to put up the skills for a single level into swarm launcher operation. How is that fair for those of us who've sunk all our SP into vehicle command and vehicle upgrades?



Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.