Heavy Machine Gun

• DPS:600
• Accuracy Rating 61.5
• Clip Size: 425
• Damage on Clip:7650
• Damage Before Overheat: 4200

Assault Rifle

• DPS:425
• Accuracy Rating: 55.5
• Clip size:60
• Damage on Clip:2040

Damage before overheat is calculated by assuming overheat is at 100 (overheat per second is 14).
That makes 7 seconds of fire, which at 600 dps is 4200 damage.

I'll be willing to include reload times in the calculations if you want.

Also a few things to be taken in consideration: Heavies mostly have much more health than assault classes. HMG's are easier to inflict damage with due to the very high firerate (2000/m compared to 750/m for the AS). Drawback would be a slow turn speed.

Again balance remains.

if, AR recoil < HMG recoil
and, AR accuracy > HMG recoil

it would not be balanced if AR damage >HMG damage

it doesnt add up, i cnt supress anything with no power.

plus, AR requires no SP to use,

STD HMG requires at least 1.5 millioin SP to start.

This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered.

no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do.

so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that?

The dps for the HMG is still almost 50% higher than the assault rifle, and the damage you can do before overheat is much higher than the damage you can do on a assault rifle clip.

As for the skillpoints, I can't see how it requires 1.5m unless you include suits in the calculation. Care to elaborate?

But is it really supposed to counter AR's? only at close range, and they already seem to do that, according to the math I've done.

Honestly these suggestions would not balance the HMG against the AR . These changes would make the HMG just stupidly overpowerd.

If you want a similar damage and range for the HMG you would need a similar ROF as well, than it would come down to dispersion and clipsize to differ both weapons.

A better solution would be some kind of surpressing effect like slowing down enemies caught in the arc of fire of a HMG.

well the amount of skills needed to get the D TAC AR is over a mill SP. I made a new account and have placed the 545k SP all into the AR skills and that only got me to LVL 4. heavies do need a more specialized skill planning in order to skill into them though. I think

its job is suppresion, supression makes advancing or defending (taking accurate shots) difficult therefore yes it is the counter AR in one sense.

noentheless CQC is out the question because CQC = high damage/dps; high mobility; high reload

shotguns, nova knives, SMGs, flaylocks, scrambler pistols all meet these requirements.
HMG bearly has one.

no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do.

so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that?

Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs.

What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second.
Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy?

the range of the AR man its all about the range

lolrange.
AR range is as much a joke as HMG range.

the range of the AR man its all about the range

The not so funny thing is CCP will listen to guys like this and do it

TLDR;

HMG does not need a damage and or range buff, if you want more damage over longer range.....drum roll please.....use another weapon that excels in those areas.

The range of the AR is the only thing that lets it fight heavies unless they flank or the heavy is awful at aiming.

Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second.
Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy?

Honestly these suggestions would not balance the HMG against the AR . These changes would make the HMG just stupidly overpowerd.

If you want a similar damage and range for the HMG you would need a similar ROF as well, than it would come down to dispersion and clipsize to differ both weapons.

A better solution would be some kind of surpressing effect like slowing down enemies caught in the arc of fire of a HMG.

The range of the AR is the only thing that lets it fight heavies unless they flank or the heavy is awful at aiming.

lol at people who didn't play the E3 build.
Sorry dude, this will take them back to the OP'ness of before, trust me, I played the game when they were like that.
And no, recoil won't balance it out.
Quote from a friend:
"
>destroys everything in one burst
"Well, hey guys, at least my gun moved a centimetre upwards!" "

Also, recoil takes a while to kick in, in fact by the time it does I already overheat.

If we're making the heavys more powerfull I want 3 things

1:for cost to be increased more power=more isk

2:for scouts to be looked at as well because scouts got screwed over just as hard

3:for the heavy to not be able to use light weapons (besides that new commando suit or whatever it's called)because having heavys running as assaults is annoying as it is,with 45% damage resist would just be aggravating and rage inducing

Tiered right now so excuse any mistakes

i recommend that the HMG gets a damage and range buff to about the same damage and range as a fully automatica AR of the same class

If we're making the heavys more powerfull I want 3 things

1:for cost to be increased more power=more isk

2:for scouts to be looked at as well because scouts got screwed over just as hard

3:for the heavy to not be able to use light weapons (besides that new commando suit or whatever it's called)because having heavys running as assaults is annoying as it is,with 45% damage resist would just be aggravating and rage inducing

Tiered right now so excuse any mistakes

Umm wasn't that the points the HMG was nerfed on? Remember how OP it was?
The range of an AR would mean that you will be able to tink someones sheilds away from a building away... totally useless unless like you said the person got proficiency level 5, and maybe stacked on some complex heavy damage mods. Doesn't seem OP at all Intead of an annoying tinking away of sheild, we will have people with proto HMGs sitting on rooftops retreating the moment one bullet hits them, and the damage buff will just destroy people close range! the HMG is fine how it is given that you use it properly...

So you want want to give the HMG the dmg of an assault... without reducing its RoF??

so what 30dmg @2000r/m .... 1000dps... and how long can I continue firing before reloading?

its insane. Completely OP

AND an increase to turn speed so no one can even get out the way lol.

Dispersion and range is not that big of a factor to warant this

I believe the HMG and heavy class itself would be fine with abit more damage than what the SMG does since its has dispersion while aiming unlike the smg and turn speed to follow medium suits decently well, the range needs to be lower than the ARs so its not OP and heavies have to play smart to not get killed , at least until new heavy weapons are introduced. Then the heavies would still be deadly in the cities and prey out in the open until longer range heavy weapons are introduced

could also increase the heat for HMGs to counter the higher dmg(looking at the smgs 23 dmg for standard dps may be pretty high)

^^ i would agree with you if the HMG was more accurate. the trade of or balance rather is normally between damage/accuracy/ROF

a sinper = high damage, high accuracy, low rate of fire
HMG should be = high damage, low accuracy, high rate of fire
AR should be = *low damage, *high accuracy, *high rate of fire
.

If the Ar should have low damage, and the HMG have high damage, wouldn't it be contradicting you saying it should be the same damage.

The HMG shouldn't have high damage, It should have a CRAZY high ROF. with low damage. The range shouldn't go back to the Chromosome ways though. As i see it now, The HMG seems pretty balanced to me. I get killed when i should be killed against them. And I don't when i shouldn't sounds balanced to me.

i already listed the factors and reasons why the damage should be the same or similiar slightly less or so. the above is the normally procedures in other shooting games.

the HMG is gimped right now, if by "balanced and not getting killed when your not supposed to you mean standing accross the street and taking no damage from a HMG OR bunny hopping/two-stepping infront of a guy with a minigun and surviving then you have a very twisted sense of balance.

ARs are killling me in literally every situation, long range, mid-range, close range... and they have a higher dps than machine guns in most of the time. so, this buff is necesary.

i repeat ARs are OP. and will continue to be OP because CCP doesnt want to nerf them. so, i am willing to accept that as long as my HMG gets a buff so it can be a threat and actually do its job.

wonder why heavies are running around with ARs? because the AR has better dps than the HMG, with no recoil, no dispersion, rips through shields and armor, and reloads in less than 2.5 seconds without any SP. A militia AR is more effective than a standard HMG.

this buff won't make HMGs over powered they will just help them keep up with ARs.

Whoah Whoah Whoah

Having bullet damage of the HMG = Bullet damage of a regular AR
And range as well ? But nothing else changes ?

And it wont end up being any kind of OP you say ? This has to be a joke....

I can agree with the major comparison you make of the two types of weapon. And the damage output of the hmg should indeed be higher. Problem is, regarding accuracy and recoil, Dust 514 HMG pretty much have NONE. Even worse, they get more and more accurate the longer you fire which is the opposite of any classic HMG. Oh, and i actually played heavy so i know the current HMG is already a beast when used properly in close range fights. What you're suggesting is pretty much DOUBLING its DPS. that is insane.

Yet, i agree heavy\hmg could use a buff. But that kind of buff ? no way. Problem is not only damage output but survivability of the heavies. WIth the damn logi suit able to reach 1k HP with some work, heavies arent the HP stockpile they shoud be compared to the other suits

And regarding range, the system is supposed to be changed, so i wouldnt buff any range of any weapon before we get our hands on that.

So to balance an OP weapon you just make another one OP? OK If the AR has more DPS then just increase the ROF for the HMG.

The range buff will completely make it OP. Even though you say that the dispersion and the spread will balance that, we've already seen how awful the HMG is with good range.

If you fire it with burst and with that kind of range and damage. Heavys will just make the game way out of whack. Now, Unless there is an increase of the dispersion and increase of spread that range buff is completely unnecessary ( At least for that far out). Even if there is a spread increase for the HMG, that would make the gun worse than it is now.

Heavies are slow for a reason. They are carrying around a minigun! So yes, A moving target should be harder to hit for a slower gunner. But the spread will make up for it.

Balance is about both sides getting good out of it. If a scout even looks at a heavy with this buff he's dead. Maybe a higher rate of fire for the HMG and a little bit less spread could make you life easier. But to increase the range/damage to that of around the ar, is absurd!

Assault are the Basic weapon now.

' The HMG is great for CQC it's just the suit that slows you down.

and again you continue to ignore all the balancing factors i listed, namely, the over heating, dhigh dispersion, high damage drop off, low accuracy, low movement speed, low turning speed.

Of course the AR can do it better, It's the standard 'No skill required' gun

I personally use the Assault Scrambler Rifle. Sure, It may take longer to kill someone statistically, but I usually win the firefights i have with AR users

The SMG- Ar can do it better, but in the right hands, SMG are more deadly than TAC ARs ( or at least how deadly they used to be)

You can say that about any weapon. The Ar is a 'starter' weapon. It requires no skill to use. Every other weapon requires skill to adjust to the differences of the gun.

your losing it bro

First you want an OP super gattling gun of doom (COD *cough*)
And superman level hp bonuses...

Now your saying an AR is better at being a shotgun than a shotgun
and an AR can out range/dmg a sniper...

all types of crazy here

Increasing the DMG to that of a submachine gun seems fair.
Increasing the movement speed of heavies seems needed.
Increasing the range seems fair.

But I can see CCP giving the HMG too much range... again

So what you want to do is make the HMG deal equal damage as the AR and have the same range? Why would anyone want an AR then?

On top of that, that makes SMGs even more useless. LR would be less effective because their range is nearly the same as an AR. Scrambler rifles would be screwed. Pretty much every infantry weapon would be useless except sniper rifles.

If you want a buff on HMGs, reduce their range to maybe 30m and bump their damage to ARs. They'll out damage ARs (2k rpm), and when they are defending a point they'll be godly. When being escorted by other mercs, those mercs would be well defended from any close range attacks.

Same range as AR (not TAC obviously)
Current damage
Slightly tighter dispersion

Heavies do not require more base speed but add the above with a slight increase in turn speed would certainly fix the HMG without making it OP in my opinion.

this seems logical. i ididnt think of that if the dispersin where reduced, it would become more effective.

although i still think a slight increase in damage per lvl would be appropriate. perhaps, somewhere between 20-30 base and up to max 32-35.

if the dispersion is reduced then it should be in the 20's up to max 29

if the dispersion is the same it should be in between 25-35, with max 35.



the max range on an HMG should not extend past that of a STD full Auto AR.

Agree regarding the max HMG range. STD AR should be where it is at.

Disagree with that high a damage buff though.
If dispersion is decreased, more bullets hit thus dps is considerably increased.
If damage is buffed by, say 1-1.5HP, dispersion SLIGHTLY decreased and range increased to STD AR, damage output and usability will be massively increased. More than that and it would end up being a Godly weapon... again.

As it stands right now, the HMG is far from useless.

If you go with the Op's suggestion you should have the effect range to 2/3rds(about) of the total range then have a steep fall off to where the HMG is doing less damage.

and have it so that you have to stay in the same spot for a while to be killed, i would say at least 30 seconds.

A HMG should kill any thing other than another heavy in its effective range, when a scout can run up in front of a heavy and kill him something is wrong( have seen it and have it done to me). one way to help stop Over powered weapons would e stacking penalties, i still think it is at zero.

As for the slot restriction for weapons there should bee more variety before that is implemented. My last thing is that the AR is not a AR but a blaster rifle and that the Scrambler Rifle the future Rail Rifle and what ever the Minmatar one is called are Assault Rifles

I'm not sure what you mean by CQC is out of the question. The HMG is perfect for CQC. High rate of fire, which the hmg has, is perfect for close quarters combat.

in this case it should have less range (although i dnt care how much or little range the AR has as long as the HMG and everything else can keep up) because plasma should never have more range than a projectile.
nonetheless, the HMG should definately do mre damage per shot.

the hmg is a minmitar weapon of course is fires projectiles

Dispersion =/= a direct reduction in dmg.

@ Optimal your dmg will be a lot closer to its given dps

for an AR yes, but on an HMG its much much higher

But is it really supposed to counter AR's? only at close range, and they already seem to do that, according to the math I've done.

From a post I did in another HMG thread




also I'm very skeptical of increasing damage from 18 to 31. That's more than 50% more damage. With that much damage, the standard HMG would do 1033 dps, which if you ask me seems insane. Taking any suit out in less than a second seems very overpowered.

Yes...that's what they want.

I would agree that the HMG is underpowered. How depressing is it when an AR guy is tanking your damage and still manages go through your shields and half your armor before he dies with a militia AR?

I would like to see my HMG become relevant again. I've had to shelf my heavy* because the AR can hit me at ranges where it seems like my bullets despawn if I try to return fire (they probably do, but I haven't actually tried to prove it so I can't say that.) The fact that it costs me twice as much to fit my heavy as it does to just make an assault suit means I might as well die twice in assault suits with GEK's than lose my MH-82 fit heavy and still take out the same number of people with those two assault suits.

However, I must point out that a certain argument is invalid. In Dust, the assault rifle and heavy machine gun do NOT fire the same rounds; the AR is a hybrid weapon and the HMG is a projectile weapon. So you can't balance the HMG by basing its stats directly off of the AR.

If you made the HMG do the same damage per round as the AR, it could become a little overpowered (would be fun turning the tables on the CoD playing AR fanatics for a week, though) I would say make it deal roughly 60-80% of basic AR per round damage based on the tech level of your HMG. You would also need to improve its optimal range a bit, as well.


*Part of the reason I wanted to play this game was because of the heavy suits...

hahaha....

i posted this somewhere:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=943251#post943251

wether that was sarcasim or not, your actually right, because based on the dispersion of the HMG compared to the AR, and the fact that they do indeed fire similar rounds they should have the same range.


AR vs HMG should be like this:

AR accuracy > HMG accuracy
AR dps < HMG dps (The AR is stampled as a close quarter high damage gun)
AR range = HMG range ( NOOOOOO nononono would make HMG insanely OP)
AR over heat < HMG over heat
AR reload > HMG reload
AR dispesion < HMG dispersion
AR headshots > HMG headshots
AR damage per shot = HMG damage per shot (doesn't the HMG fire a lot faster than the AR and clip size is also much bigger so suddenly you got a small blaster turret in your hands)

I really don't think that HMG's should have the same range as AR's. It's a HIP !! fired weapon. Try to take a gun today and fire it from the hip you'll never get same accuracy as a gun beeing actually aimed with.
I won't be a total moron and reject this totally, because you are right that the HMG just can't hold up against the AR. I would like to see a range increase though not to the point where it's near the same range as the AR. 1.2 is coming up and it looks like we're going to get our falloff in this update so shouldn't we wait with discussing improving HMG range till after that gets deployed.

Also regarding the turning speed and all that speed stuff, look at the other amarr suits they're slow as hell and got a poor poor poor slot layout. The faster CCP can give us the other heavies the faster we can begin to judge the heavies to each other not medium frames. Hopefully also the redo of armor plates will be a boost to heavies tanks and i do know that good corps like ILL OMENS use full squads of heavies with HMGs to basically just force people out of certain areas as close range NO ONE can withstand the push of several heavies.

Your argument about weapons today doesn't work because MGs are more accurate over longer ranges and typically use a higher caliber which mean more damage than an AR.

But if your firing it from the hip you'll never get to the point where you are actually accurate... nevermind should never have drawn real world into the discussion my fail.And regarding the resistance on heavy suits i'm all in for a MINOR resistance bonus on the heavy suits. Something like 2-3% per level trained not 30-45% ahh. Gotta remember that heavies can use any kind of weapons so they can also just get a AR.

I find it interesting how most people against the HMG getting a range and/or damage increase argue and show formulas based on every round hitting it's target, something impossible to do with a HMG beyond about 15 feet.

Seriously, I'm a Forge Gunner and I nearly beat a HMG with my SMG. He had less than 15% armor left when it was done. If he hadn't started firing on my left side before I saw him I would have won and that's just not right.

All I see is a totally logical and valid concern. this is a pressing issue and i too would like to see it resolved.

Peace, Aizen

Umm. NO.

If you want an AR just equip an AR.

Like I said before only AR users do not want the heavy or HMG to be better because there feelings would get hurt as I mow them down. I am tired of being pot shot at and ran over because my gun fails to do its job or my suit is so gimped I am just an easy moving target. Try it I dare you for one week, try it and you will say the same thing I am saying. The heavy suit and HMG are broken end of story.