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SOLUTION: How to fix the Heavy suit/HMG once and for all!

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D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 188	Posted - 2013.06.17 06:42:00 - [1] - Quote i recommend that the HMG gets a damage and range buff to about the same damage and range as a fully automatica AR of the same class (STD, ADV, PROTO). before you scream OP in girl shrills, remember, everything else about the HMG will remain the same, the reload, over heating, high dispersion and high recoil high damage drop off. so the standard hmg should do 31 hp per shot. this way the HMG can proper supress the enemy. also, you must have weaponry lvl 5 and put extra points into alot of things for the HMG it must reflect the effort required to attain it. inaddition, the heavy suit should get the following slight buffs: 15% increase in run and turning speed (still slower than eveeryone else, but fast enough to keep up with squad, and hit targets). 30%-45% resistance to small arms fire (this is in the description of the suit, and the heavy is a slow bullet sponge should be good at absorbing the bullets. this may take the form of a skill OR blanket amount per suit lvl i.e. STD HVY suit = 15%, ADV 25%, proto 45%... or a sprarte skill for heavies only for resistance to damage to shields and armor,, etc) i already have some threads on the subject: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81725&find=unread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=82270&find=unread lance 2ballzstrong has a thread as well: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=73100&find=unread mike pole a play i imagine similar to yourself had similar concerns: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=79438&find=unread my main point with regards to the balance HMGs have to have against everything else is that balance is 2nd place to purpose. or rather, when balancing the purpose of whatever item your balancing must be considered. why? because your approach to the balance must not make the item lose its purpose. right now ARs out gun HMGs in just about every respect, the HMG isnt even balanced with or on par with the AR but for examples sake, lets say they were.... (HMG does less dps than a militia AR with half the accuracy and 2x the dispersion) what is the purpose of an AR? multiple purpose weapon, jack of all trads master of none. what is the purpose of an HMG? anti personell, supression, fire power clearly the HMG should excel in the area of its purpose, its not supposed to be a versitle weapon, its supposed to have raw power through fire rate, dps, damage per shot, and ammo capacity. when CCP tried to balance the HMG they made it pointless because you can do everything a HMG can do better with an AR, at 2x the range.
Queen of Uranus Dust 514 Forum Trolls 31	Posted - 2013.06.17 06:51:00 - [2] - Quote Umm. NO. If you want an AR just equip an AR.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 189	Posted - 2013.06.17 06:59:00 - [3] - Quote hahaha.... i posted this somewhere: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=943251#post943251 wether that was sarcasim or not, your actually right, because based on the dispersion of the HMG compared to the AR, and the fact that they do indeed fire similar rounds they should have the same range. AR vs HMG should be like this: AR accuracy > HMG accuracy AR dps < HMG dps AR range = HMG range AR over heat < HMG over heat AR reload > HMG reload AR dispesion < HMG dispersion AR headshots > HMG headshots AR damage per shot = HMG damage per shot so, TBH the HMG should do the same damage per bullet as the AR. if all other factors stay the same giving the HMG the same dispersion, reload, over heating, inaddition to the heavys, low turn speed and movement speed. it will finally be a viable weapon again. right now your AR is my HMG. i've never heard of an AR that completely out classes an HMG of the same era. never
Wolfica Planetary Response Organization 43	Posted - 2013.06.17 07:07:00 - [4] - Quote ehh I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the damage should be that high, yes when you look at RL and basically every other FPS the LMG does more damage per round then every other gun except the sniper rifle. nut they should increase the range and do some other stuff to help balance the heavy. here is a post I made a little bit earlier today nerf war
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 189	Posted - 2013.06.17 07:50:00 - [5] - Quote ^^ i would agree with you if the HMG was more accurate. the trade of or balance rather is normally between damage/accuracy/ROF a sinper = high damage, high accuracy, low rate of fire HMG should be = high damage, low accuracy, high rate of fire AR should be = low damage, high accuracy, high rate of fire so due to the HMGs high reload, and crazy dispersion even after complete spin up, it should keep the high rate of fire and high damage, namely full AR damage. in some games/FPSs the AR has median damage, accuracy, and rate of fire, from which all other weapons become variations of the AR model. therefore, the sniper would do proportionally high damage, and have high accuracy compared to its rate of fire reduction. CoD can't be used as a model in this regard because all characters have the same hp, so unbalanced weapons are harder to detect as instant kills and lag make a bigger difference in life or death.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:00:00 - [6] - Quote From a post I did in another HMG thread Quote: Heavy Machine Gun DPS:600 Accuracy Rating 61.5 Clip Size: 425 Damage on Clip:7650 Damage Before Overheat: 4200 Assault Rifle DPS:425 Accuracy Rating: 55.5 Clip size:60 Damage on Clip:2040 Damage before overheat is calculated by assuming overheat is at 100 (overheat per second is 14). That makes 7 seconds of fire, which at 600 dps is 4200 damage. I'll be willing to include reload times in the calculations if you want. Also a few things to be taken in consideration: Heavies mostly have much more health than assault classes. HMG's are easier to inflict damage with due to the very high firerate (2000/m compared to 750/m for the AS). Drawback would be a slow turn speed. also I'm very skeptical of increasing damage from 18 to 31. That's more than 50% more damage. With that much damage, the standard HMG would do 1033 dps, which if you ask me seems insane. Taking any suit out in less than a second seems very overpowered.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:05:00 - [7] - Quote Again balance remains. if, AR recoil < HMG recoil and, AR accuracy > HMG recoil it would not be balanced if AR damage >HMG damage it doesnt add up, i cnt supress anything with no power. plus, AR requires no SP to use, STD HMG requires at least 1.5 millioin SP to start. balancing a weapon that it requires over 1.5 million SP to use and specialize in V.S. a weapon that anyone can use at anytime with/with out any SP into it, in an MMO makes no sense.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 1065	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:08:00 - [8] - Quote This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:12:00 - [9] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Again balance remains. if, AR recoil < HMG recoil and, AR accuracy > HMG recoil it would not be balanced if AR damage >HMG damage it doesnt add up, i cnt supress anything with no power. plus, AR requires no SP to use, STD HMG requires at least 1.5 millioin SP to start. The dps for the HMG is still almost 50% higher than the assault rifle, and the damage you can do before overheat is much higher than the damage you can do on a assault rifle clip. As for the skillpoints, I can't see how it requires 1.5m unless you include suits in the calculation. Care to elaborate?
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:14:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered. no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do. so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that?

Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:16:00 - [11] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered. no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do. so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that? But is it really supposed to counter AR's? only at close range, and they already seem to do that, according to the math I've done.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:16:00 - [12] - Quote Benari Kalidima wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Again balance remains. if, AR recoil < HMG recoil and, AR accuracy > HMG recoil it would not be balanced if AR damage >HMG damage it doesnt add up, i cnt supress anything with no power. plus, AR requires no SP to use, STD HMG requires at least 1.5 millioin SP to start. The dps for the HMG is still almost 50% higher than the assault rifle, and the damage you can do before overheat is much higher than the damage you can do on a assault rifle clip. As for the skillpoints, I can't see how it requires 1.5m unless you include suits in the calculation. Care to elaborate? i include the suit because you need a heavy suit to use HMGs, but if you decide to use the milita heavy, you still must max out weaponry which is already 600,000SP down the tube, inaddition to other costs
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:19:00 - [13] - Quote Benari Kalidima wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered. no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do. so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that? But is it really supposed to counter AR's? only at close range, and they already seem to do that, according to the math I've done. its job is suppresion, supression makes advancing or defending (taking accurate shots) difficult therefore yes it is the counter AR in one sense. noentheless CQC is out the question because CQC = high damage/dps; high mobility; high reload shotguns, nova knives, SMGs, flaylocks, scrambler pistols all meet these requirements. HMG bearly has one.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:22:00 - [14] - Quote Honestly these suggestions would not balance the HMG against the AR . These changes would make the HMG just stupidly overpowerd. If you want a similar damage and range for the HMG you would need a similar ROF as well, than it would come down to dispersion and clipsize to differ both weapons. A better solution would be some kind of surpressing effect like slowing down enemies caught in the arc of fire of a HMG.
Wolfica Planetary Response Organization 47	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:22:00 - [15] - Quote well the amount of skills needed to get the D TAC AR is over a mill SP. I made a new account and have placed the 545k SP all into the AR skills and that only got me to LVL 4. heavies do need a more specialized skill planning in order to skill into them though. I think
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:25:00 - [16] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Honestly these suggestions would not balance the HMG against the AR . These changes would make the HMG just stupidly overpowerd. If you want a similar damage and range for the HMG you would need a similar ROF as well, than it would come down to dispersion and clipsize to differ both weapons. A better solution would be some kind of surpressing effect like slowing down enemies caught in the arc of fire of a HMG. that is a ****** idea, we already have enough problems with lag, try doing that in the city part of any map, and see if you dnt just lag out altogther.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 190	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:26:00 - [17] - Quote Wolfica wrote: well the amount of skills needed to get the D TAC AR is over a mill SP. I made a new account and have placed the 545k SP all into the AR skills and that only got me to LVL 4. heavies do need a more specialized skill planning in order to skill into them though. I think 1 million SP still only gets you to a STD HMG. so ARs with less SP can go proto faster (not a problem) with a more effective weapon than the hHMG PROTO (problem).
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:28:00 - [18] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered. no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do. so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that? But is it really supposed to counter AR's? only at close range, and they already seem to do that, according to the math I've done. its job is suppresion, supression makes advancing or defending (taking accurate shots) difficult therefore yes it is the counter AR in one sense. noentheless CQC is out the question because CQC = high damage/dps; high mobility; high reload shotguns, nova knives, SMGs, flaylocks, scrambler pistols all meet these requirements. HMG bearly has one. I'm not sure what you mean by CQC is out of the question. The HMG is perfect for CQC. High rate of fire, which the hmg has, is perfect for close quarters combat.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 1066	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:42:00 - [19] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This would makes heavies ludicrously overpowered. no it would make them the counter to ARs. which it is supposed to do. so, ARs doing dps like a militia blaster turret is not OP, but a heavy that can engage an AR is OP? where is the logic in that? Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy?
THE WOOKIE 72 Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 1	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:28:00 - [20] - Quote im not against this idea I think its a good idea because the AR has range, damage, reload speeds, accuracy over the hmg right now I think the AR has taken the place of the hmg its easier to defend a position when you do moderate - high damage (if fit right), have high mobility and accuracy. the hmg is easy to over run when its defending a position ( they slow to move take damage at same rate of any other suit u can kill a heavy in one clip with any AR (don't go bullying hmg clip size its supposed to b that way) your running up on this heavy alone 1st mistake running up with group youre good he cant hit u from a distance take advantage of that his health might be into armor bout 500 then u have him if ur at full hp if he doesn't hit every shot from the time u enter his range cos he has low damage high ROF even if hes proto so yeah hmg needs damage boost if he didn't take any of thos AR guys out then he doesn't suck at the game AR beat himn cos he took same damage as they did now if he had resistance and a little more damage then things might have gone differently. not saying he should have wiped the floor with those guys but he should have stood a chance defending that objective alone. but yeah that was a side story my main point is the AR is the king of medium range but the hmg is close quarters champ an AR might get him but that's cos it has him beat in damage

THE WOOKIE 72 Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 1	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:30:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? the range of the AR man its all about the range
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 634	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:10:00 - [22] - Quote lol at people who didn't play the E3 build. Sorry dude, this will take them back to the OP'ness of before, trust me, I played the game when they were like that. And no, recoil won't balance it out. Quote from a friend: " >destroys everything in one burst "Well, hey guys, at least my gun moved a centimetre upwards!" " Also, recoil takes a while to kick in, in fact by the time it does I already overheat.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 634	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:11:00 - [23] - Quote THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? the range of the AR man its all about the range lolrange. AR range is as much a joke as HMG range.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:14:00 - [24] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? the range of the AR man its all about the range lolrange. AR range is as much a joke as HMG range. Not really. Just generally the range limit is a joke. Bullets that disappears just don't make sense. Especially not gameplay wise.
PonyClause Rex TRAMADOL KNIGHTS 93	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:16:00 - [25] - Quote The not so funny thing is CCP will listen to guys like this and do it TLDR; HMG does not need a damage and or range buff, if you want more damage over longer range.....drum roll please.....use another weapon that excels in those areas.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 1083	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:16:00 - [26] - Quote THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? the range of the AR man its all about the range The range of the AR is the only thing that lets it fight heavies unless they flank or the heavy is awful at aiming.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 197	Posted - 2013.06.17 22:43:00 - [27] - Quote PonyClause Rex wrote: The not so funny thing is CCP will listen to guys like this and do it TLDR; HMG does not need a damage and or range buff, if you want more damage over longer range.....drum roll please.....use another weapon that excels in those areas. another Ar user. its funny how every AR users response to an unbalanced thread is...drum roll please... use an AR. so, the only balance against an AR is another AR. the only counter to an AR is another AR. have a problem with shotguns not killing people in their effective range? use an AR, have a problem with HMGs fire confetti at enemies in its optimal range? use an AR. your tank turrets not doing enoughh damage? have a guy with an AR ride on your tank. the dispersion and recoil, balance out the increase to damage and range that the HMG needs.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 197	Posted - 2013.06.17 22:46:00 - [28] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Firstly, HMGs already do more DPS than ARs. What you are suggesting makes heavies have much much more EHP, while simultaneously being able to destroy EVERYTHING in a single burst at the same ranges as every other weapon. How is that not OP? Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? the range of the AR man its all about the range The range of the AR is the only thing that lets it fight heavies unless they flank or the heavy is awful at aiming. no. this is balanced: AR accuracy > HMG accuracy AR reload speed > HMG reload speed AR dispersion < HMG dispersion (hmg bullets fly everywhere) AR damage = HMG damage AR range = HMG range AR RoF < HMG RoF at the same range the AR should be able to put more rounds accurately on the heavy using an HMG. but, the HMG should be able to supress someone using an AR. if i have no range, but a high fire rate and low damage, there i have an SMG, take away accuracy add dispersion and recoil and now i have nothing.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits 197	Posted - 2013.06.17 22:50:00 - [29] - Quote THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: Recoil is not a concern when you don't even need to keep the gun on the target for a full second. Why would you ever not use a heavy in this situation? What possible benefit is there to using anything other than a heavy? haha no replace the words "HMG" and "heavy" with "AR" and "assault/logi". this is what heavies ask themselves everyday. what point is there to the HMG when ARs do everything better than every other weapon in the optimal range? i have explained how my request is balanced. in this and other posts.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 254	Posted - 2013.06.18 04:53:00 - [30] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Honestly these suggestions would not balance the HMG against the AR . These changes would make the HMG just stupidly overpowerd. If you want a similar damage and range for the HMG you would need a similar ROF as well, than it would come down to dispersion and clipsize to differ both weapons. A better solution would be some kind of surpressing effect like slowing down enemies caught in the arc of fire of a HMG. Yes this! I made this suggestion when uprising launched and the HMG was pummeled by the Nerf bat! I'll just copy and paste here. I do agree with D Legendary Hero that the HMG may need a slight damage buff, but not to 31 hp/round at standard. Probablymore like 19.5 HP/round standard. I definitely like the resistance to small arms fire. It wouldn't be feasible to add this as a skill. It would have to be added to the Dropsuits themselves. For Mid to Long Range Area denial category a.) Longer range, less kick/heat build up, faster spin up when ADS, faster turning speed, suppression effect: stopping power (-__% movement speed per landed round), more damage or For CQC powerhouse category b.)Faster turning speed, more damage, less dispersion, less kick/heat build up, suppression effect: blur (-__% visibility per landed round), longer range, tighter spread, faster spin up. I wouldn't mind seeing a category a.) HMG(point man suppressor) and a category b.) HMG(point defender) in each tier for the HMG in order to add more diversification for the Heavy's role. Either one of these categories would work for point defender, however. These are my suggestions please note under each category suggestions are listed in order of importance for intended purpose. These suggestions are based off of my own experience, other players' suggestions, and the DEVs'/players' communications



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