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Debate: SP Cap (for or against)

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Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 649	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:35:00 - [1] - Quote Are you For or Against having a weekly/daily/monthly/whatever SP cap or against it and why? Extra points given for good grammar and sound logic.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3588	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:38:00 - [2] - Quote I've always believed in a strict hard cap on SP, because in theory, your reward for playing should ideally be new loot, more ISK, killing baddies, scamming people, manipulating markets, exploring, etc etc The reality is that there is no incentive other than SP, and this is strongly pushed by CCP via boosters. Plus, people like to feel like special snowflakes, and oodles of SP is how to do that easily
mrunknown2u2 Ill Omens EoN. 77	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:40:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I've always believed in a strict hard cap on SP, because in theory, your reward for playing should ideally be new loot, more ISK, killing baddies, scamming people, manipulating markets, exploring, etc etc The reality is that there is no incentive other than SP, and this is strongly pushed by CCP via boosters. Plus, people like to feel like special snowflakes, and oodles of SP is how to do that easily I think your on to something. Instead of increasing SP i believe once you hit your cap you should be given a buff to loot and isk.
Knightshade Belladonna WH0 G1VSA FL0CK GLOCKS 333	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:46:00 - [4] - Quote mrunknown2u2 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I've always believed in a strict hard cap on SP, because in theory, your reward for playing should ideally be new loot, more ISK, killing baddies, scamming people, manipulating markets, exploring, etc etc The reality is that there is no incentive other than SP, and this is strongly pushed by CCP via boosters. Plus, people like to feel like special snowflakes, and oodles of SP is how to do that easily I think your on to something. Instead of increasing SP i believe once you hit your cap you should be given a buff to loot and isk. a 25-50% buff in isk gain would be a good incentive to continue playing games after hitting cap. bonus to overall isk, not the base isk.. * looks at ccp , and remembers double isk week..*
KaTaLy5t-87 Shadow Company HQ 11	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:48:00 - [5] - Quote Definitely for the cap because if we had no cap the gap between casual and hardcore players would be even greater than it already is. I have a job but I still get to play Dust most evenings and at the weekends and I can usually cap out on a Monday or Tuesday evening which is fine for me. Now take a guy with no job and all they do is play Dust, with no SP cap they could earn an almost unlimited amount of SP every week. So suddenly the guys like me who just about manage to cap out each week are falling seriously behind the guys who cap oit after 2 days. I'm not just saying this for my own good either, I think the current SP is as fair as it can be across the board and it seems to work pretty well. And besides, it was put to a vote before and that is how we ended up with the current system. If it isn't broken don't try to fix it IMO. Pity the same couldn't be said about the nanite injectors
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 184	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:50:00 - [6] - Quote I've always been against it but it's not going away. And frankly I'd prefer CCP to be selling boosters as their primary products than more P2W gear. So I've made my peace with it.
ReGnYuM Imperfects Negative-Feedback 133	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:53:00 - [7] - Quote i vote no SP FPS B4 the MMO
KaTaLy5t-87 Shadow Company HQ 11	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:54:00 - [8] - Quote I would be in favor of some kind of bonus system to come into effect after cap is reached, a buff to the chance of getting officer or proto weapons or extra ISK or something like that.
Knightshade Belladonna WH0 G1VSA FL0CK GLOCKS 333	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:55:00 - [9] - Quote There should be some type of pool of sp for the noobs imo. Like say the average player sp goes up to 15 mil SP, new guy comes in he gets a pool of say half that. So instead of having a 190k sp cap each week, they will have 7.5 mil to be able to grind grind and grind. it won't put them on par, but it won't also put them so far behind that they are not meaningful to anyone on the field. I'ts not perfect, but just a thought.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 649	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:57:00 - [10] - Quote But the SP cap ensures that the SP gap between older players and newer will forever stay wherever it is at the time. As it is, a new player has no hope on catching up with the Beta vets who have between 10 and 17 mil SP. Another argument against having an SP cap is that SP gives you diminishing returns. Your first 10 mil SP is critical. Your next 10 mil less so. And your next 10 mil after that is not that important at all. Not having a hard cap or a weekly cap would mean new players could get to that point where they will be competitive (6-10 mil SP) sooner. Another argument against having a weekly cap and a hard cap. Grind is bad. To elaborate further, grind is bad. It is the SP cap that makes this game feel like a job for people. Another argument against having an SP cap is actually a rebuttal. The premise that having an SP cap will encourage the idea that things like "new loot, more ISK, killing baddies, scamming people, manipulating markets, exploring, etc etc" are how you "progress" in dust is flawed. It's how Dust is supposed to be. How it was sold to be. But it is not the truth. Dust lacks the content for this to be a reality.

KING SALASI MAJOR DISTRIBUTION 42	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:58:00 - [11] - Quote I hate the cap I understand why it's there but hate it with a passion. So I'm against it but understand why it's needed. Once i hit the cap i play my other games. I hit my cap in 2 to 3 days.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 650	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:00:00 - [12] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: i vote no SP FPS B4 the MMO According to the Lore of this game, we are supposed to be super elite super soldiers, right? But when you first start playing, you are the furthest thing from that. We can't use anything but the crudest, out of date versions of the elite weapons and we use them ineptly at that? Immersion breaking.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 650	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:01:00 - [13] - Quote Another argument against SP caps. Imagine an MMO which capped how much EXP you could get from quests and killing stuff per day/week. It would not go over well...
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1215	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:06:00 - [14] - Quote Im not too fussed If we did have no cap my booster would be more awesome and i would play as much as possible to get more SP and prob would go harder in pub games so i get more SP We get 500k or so with cap, without cap we could easy push 2-4mil depending on how much you play
KaTaLy5t-87 Shadow Company HQ 12	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:11:00 - [15] - Quote Will CCP not just keep adding in skills like they have in Eve? Some new feature/vehicle/weapon is added to the game and so are the skills necessary to utilise that feature. This is obviously a hypothetical situation because everyone knows it will another 2 years before CCP gives us any new features
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 341	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:13:00 - [16] - Quote I think they need to remove the cap. I don't think the vets will continue to grind like we used to although some certainly will. But at 18 mil or so you've probably got one role pretty much maxed out. No cap gives some of these guys at 4-6 mil who are hooked on the game a light at the end of the tunnel. Even without a cap a new player probably feels like its impossible. New players should get at least 2 million SP to start out.
Aqil Aegivan The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 125	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:16:00 - [17] - Quote Aren't we still waiting for a more flexible roll-over version of the current cap? Honestly I don't see there being much support for the removal of the SP cap while people believe it is responsible for match balancing.
Sontie Ill Omens EoN. 651	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:19:00 - [18] - Quote The abysmal new character SP and experience should be addressed in another thread or posted about in the Feedback section of the forums. Keep this thread focused on SP cap (though referencing the new player experience is ok)
Azura Sakura Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 75	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:19:00 - [19] - Quote Well.... If we were to remove the SP cap, matching making (MM) need to change. Like the newer players against newer players and then you have the 3m -5m in their own MM. This could also work with the SP cap, Players under maybe 3-5m, get their own MM but with 2x the SP gain. I don't see the problem with this IMO, keeps the news from running away since they have a chance against the better equipped players.
Lord Falek Grange Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:21:00 - [20] - Quote This is now an 'Amarr Master Race' thread.

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3588	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:24:00 - [21] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: I've always been against it but it's not going away. And frankly I'd prefer CCP to be selling boosters as their primary products than more P2W gear. So I've made my peace with it. Edit: The argument about "hardcore" players farming tons of SP is often made, although it's a bad one. The SP gap that's the biggest detriment to the game is the one between new players and old ones. Hardcore SP farmers can only put so much SP into making any given build stronger, after that they're just gaining more options in playstyles; frankly, the ones that have been at it a while are already there. No, the only SP gap the cap really enforces is making sure newer players are basically permanently behind older ones. People are so worried about "falling behind" that they support a system that ensures the people who haven't been playing since Open Beta stay permanently behind. Versatility is immensely valuable. Being versatile AND proficient....that's just lethal. Don't try to downplay the benefit of SP, it's insulting. If I had it my way, you'd have SP like in EVE, but that doesn't sell boosters, and the game is too boring right now to hold attention without pushing the desire to gain SP
THEDRiZZLE Aqua teen Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 13	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:28:00 - [22] - Quote Fukk the sp cap it dumb its just a way to make you play for an extended period of time
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 719	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:40:00 - [23] - Quote It's time for CCP to cut the gordian know for the sake of this game. They were going to get rid of the SP cap and people freaked out that the hardcore would simply outpace players who don't play too often and will get too far ahead in SP moreover they felt they would simply max out their characters in a year or 2 and simply stop playing. 1. Characters grow wider not taller you can only take a skill to level 5. The faster players can get their initial chunk of 10-15M SP the faster they can be competitive in FW and PC against the closed vets. 2. Grinding and progressing your character shouldn't be the game but it currently is. It is up to CCP to make sure there is a robust level of gameplay that creates a desire to login well after a player has reached a high SP character. Im sitting on ~15M SP it took 6 months of capping every week with both active and passive boosters running. I can careless if i hit a cap ever again. But for me ive been progressing with the base as I was a ground zero player. You aren't going to get enough new players to want to make that same grind. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247 That was the post that triggered us to all panic and be like OMG everyones gonna run away with their SP gap. ITs freaking hilarious how much people fear an SP gap. There is no REAL SP gap once you reach a certain level of SP any more you get beyond it is just giving you versatility and thats it. So yea if CCP has the guts to just say HTFU we're going ahead with this perhaps we would have a lot more players who would have stuck through the grind since they wouldn't be inhibited by a cap. The only reason CCP went through with a vote was because at that time there were thread after thread about how CCP doesn't listen to us and a general frustration that our voices on the forums didn't matter. So they gave us this vote and we are like ZOMG CCP you rule you do care. #Cutthegordianknot. Consequentially if SP cap didn't exist you would have more people willing to try their hand at PC since they would be able to get to a competitive level of SP sooner, is it any wonder that PC is dominated by closed testers and the ones who fought regularly during chromosome in corp battles. Also increase the loot table and create a simple sell loot for ISK option to liquidate that loot for increasing player funds for PC, at least until we get player trading and even then a sell for ISK based on S/D would be great. If that is done then the loot wouldnt be biomassed but put onto a market that players could try to either trade or purchase from NPC/Players.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 184	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:42:00 - [24] - Quote Of course versatility is useful, but killing a proto suit with an AR on it isn't significantly different or harder than killing one with a SCR on it. Or a MD, or (if they worked) a LR, or Swarms. Or they can go in completely different directions and skill into vehicles or other suit types at the cost of more SP. Potentially a lot more SP. And the options will always be nice to have, and quite useful. But none of that comes close to the performance increase you get from making the initial climb from Militia to Proto gear and the attendant Core skills. That's a very large increase in sheer power. In comparison, the performance gains made in those first 8-10 million SP dwarf those made later.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 296	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:47:00 - [25] - Quote I'm all for SP cap removal. Remove SP cap and change in game sp to 1 SP/s + 2 SP/WP with a cap of 1000 per game. Slightly diminished returns compared to now, pre cap, but no limit. Also encourages teamwork and skilled play, as you'll always want to hit 1000 WP per game, which is not always possible. Also makes active boosters always valuable. I would prefer this over a rolling cap, however they will probably accomplish the same thing in the long run.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1515	Posted - 2013.06.10 17:54:00 - [26] - Quote I'm for the current system. Not only does it stop casuals and semi-casuals from falling too far behind, but it also gives the players who hit the cap a break from the grind. I'm actually happy when I hit the SP cap, because I can just mess around without having to worry about falling behind in the SP race. Gives me time to experiment with oddball fittings, or just mess around in a dropship or LAV.
TheMarkOf22 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 211	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:02:00 - [27] - Quote It should be a monthly cap, since they can't figure out roll over, that way new players wont miss out on as much sp..
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 796	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:09:00 - [28] - Quote I am against it.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 291	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:10:00 - [29] - Quote Im for a cap, but the cap needs to be either rolling, or progressive based on your current SP compared to the average. Make it so newer players have more cap room to play with. A) Newer players will be most enthused to play. Even "casual" players who are first into a game will play a lot. So in this time, the bigger cap will be useful to them. B) it will allow them to catch up and close the SP gap quicker. Ive actually gone through the trouble of making pSN and alt accounts for buddies of mine I hope to one day play DUST with because otherwise I fear by the time they play the grind will be too much for them to feel like they can compete properly. This would be negated if said buddies (who get super obsessive about games at first) didnt have much of a cap for the first 5 mil or so.
Aythadis Smith The Generals EoN. 19	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:11:00 - [30] - Quote With a cap, it contains players who play too much. Though, with out it, it could help newer players catch up. If there was a way to catch up on missed SP and more then 1k sp after cap, we could have a winner. Maybe new players get double of cap till, say 5 m after that, it returns to normal. It would at least give them a chance to gain something proto



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