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[Request] Change Dren Pistol/Swarm Launcher to tier 1 CPU/PG fitting cost

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Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:26:00 - [1] - Quote I purchased the Elite pack when it first released. Since then I have used the Dren Logistic suit, Sentinel, Assault Rifle, Scout, Shotgun, and lunch box (some previously mentioned facts may be incorrect). I actually was really looking forward to the pistol and Sentinel suit. I enjoy the sentinel suit. I currently use Adv suits but I am trying to encourage myself to run cheaper gear more often rather than rely on items. I look forward to the templar sentinel and using it as well. The pistol was also very exciting to me because I never have been much use with the SMG. It is a solid weapon. I enjoy it. I can get kills with it, however the pistol has exciting moments where I have been stared down by an opposing heavy with good gear, and currently higher HP. I keep backing up towards cover, my HMG needing reloading, he knows my chances slim, he rounds corner with the advantage but I have a clear headshot ready for him (from sighting his head while playing chase around a nullcannon) and BAM, his shields just broke, bam bam. Two body shots and he is on the floor. When I received the Dren pistol I tried my best to see what suits could fit it. Sadly with the upgrade to Adv tier suits and extra points from Respec I was able to dedicate the points I needed into electronics and engineering (woe is me I guess?). As a result I was able to very much optimize my prefered suits. Often I now have to choose between upgrading to Assault Pistol or upgrading to adv grenades. Choosing grenades generally first (flux those uplinks people). As a result of my fittings being so tight I can not feasibly use the Dren pistol without reducing my modules. Very often the lack of 3 pg or 9 CPU results in needing to downgrade from complex to enhanced, or enhanced to basic. The fitting difference between basic and adv flux grenades is 9cpu and 1pg. Which means in no scenario with extra space would the flux grenade not be more reasonable (isk cost is certainly higher but it is not a high cost certainly). In the end though I don't feel the above matters terribly much. What I do feel matters is my enjoyment of the item. In the end equipping the weapon would make me happier. Significantly? No. Would it make me happier forever? No. But I don't quite understand why I can't have it. In my mind I must choose either between better items on my suit, or a nicer looking sidearm. I actually use the pistol anyway. The additional cost to me upon finding out the Dren had militia fitting costs was ~24k SP, and ~120k ISK for 200 pistols (currently at 120 left after ~2 weeks, though I sometimes use assault pistols too as I view them as superior). Which is where my confusion comes in. The cost of using the BPO is 9cpu, 3 PG. This same benefit I happily spend hundreds of thousands of SP to gain on all my suits. The cost for gaining that CPU/PG is 24k SP and probably a high estimate of 300k ISK a month. Would many people likely change to pistol purely for fitting reasons? Potentially yes, though people seem equally liekly to like either. In fact for the swarm launcher I'd find this a very good thing, as it's use is very limited currently. Pistol as well but overbalancing is generally not a good idea. idk I just really want to use this pistol, I like not having to worry about buying more, I like having something a little unique, I think the 24k to get the extra round in the mag is worth it regardless, and I guess it bothers me that in order to use this thing I bought I would need to actively work to decide what part of my fitting can be changed to accomodate, and also when (through various upgrades and etc) I can fit it because I have extra room. That time should be spent playing, not refitting my suits to fit a different skin. As a note for others coming in cold on this. The Dren AR/Shotgun features full basic stats. The Dren Pistol features full basic stats (faster reload time) but has the same cpu/pg of a militia item. The same goes for the Dren Swarm Launcher as well. tl;dr; I feel the extra CPU/PG cost of the Dren Pistol detracts from the point of the game and the intention of said item. I do not believe it was meant to be burdensome to use but it currently is as the extra fitting requires special attention.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:26:00 - [2] - Quote Old thread here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=77725&find=unread
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 542	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:31:00 - [3] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: Old thread here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=77725&find=unread I'd add Templar to the list, it seems odd to sell items with militia fitting reqs. You can already buy a miltia scrambler pistol BPO( I realize there's slight differences, but still...).
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:37:00 - [4] - Quote I am intentionally leaving that out as in the support mail I received I had mentioned the Templar Pistol and they said they could not comment as the item was not actually released yet. But yes I agree and hope it will be that way.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 543	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:57:00 - [5] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: I am intentionally leaving that out as in the support mail I received I had mentioned the Templar Pistol and they said they could not comment as the item was not actually released yet. But yes I agree and hope it will be that way. Also, I avoided liking your post because you're at 777.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 20:01:00 - [6] - Quote they said the same thing like 3 weeks ago when I was at 666. Take that moonracer(?)!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 544	Posted - 2013.06.05 01:21:00 - [7] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: they said the same thing like 3 weeks ago when I was at 666. Take that moonracer(?)! Oh well... no jackpot for you.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 786	Posted - 2013.06.05 12:56:00 - [8] - Quote There is always the next number. My current goal will to spell out 8008. Because I'm that mature. Anyway bumping with the fact that this has to be one of the easier requests to fulfill. Compared to requests for rebalancing, respecing, new suits, new weapons, fix weapons, fix skills, etc etc etc. Heck if there is no fear of a balance issue this is easier to do than the new wallpaper I requested! Should this be reason enough to do it? No and I understand that but how hard does one need to campaign for something like this? Because I'm prepared to g-darn double it.
Nikea Nei Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 11	Posted - 2013.06.05 14:02:00 - [9] - Quote It might require a client update? Though it hasn't been made clear to me what exactly necessitates that sort of thing. I assume skill-passives and that sort of thing require an update like that, and that's why suit skills, etc. haven't been changed. Can you think of any other items that had their CPU/PG adjusted without a client update?
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 786	Posted - 2013.06.05 17:00:00 - [10] - Quote well it could be included in whichever one comes next, I'm not talking a stop the presses thing here

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 548	Posted - 2013.06.05 18:02:00 - [11] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: well it could be included in whichever one comes next, I'm not talking a stop the presses thing here There's a lot of stuff that's coming in the client update this month in theory. For starters, the "June update" was announced by the CEO with the uprising launch. I'd assume an update announced in a press release is more than just "fixes". But we have stuff like the suit changes, range/weapon adjustments, weapon additions?, the memory leak fix, etc. etc. Not sure when in June it's supposed to be - but soon I hope. Getting tired of sitting on my unspent SP. Maybe those placeholder suits and some other stuff will pop in there as well. I think the Elite pack folks (which I am not) probably deserve to have their weapons be standard grade - though I'm concerned about the Templar gear too after seeing the militia fittings on that.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 803	Posted - 2013.06.07 12:53:00 - [12] - Quote I would even be happy with a decent counter argument as to why not btw. Just why this shouldn't be.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 674	Posted - 2013.06.07 16:40:00 - [13] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: I would even be happy with a decent counter argument as to why not btw. Just why this shouldn't be. Not sure if this is on the dev radar yet. It seems more like an oversight to me.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 689	Posted - 2013.06.08 14:36:00 - [14] - Quote And how do we put it on the radar? By increasing visibility...
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 236	Posted - 2013.06.08 15:06:00 - [15] - Quote I too have the elite pack, but this isn't really an issue. Train your fitting skills and learn that everything is a trade-off: do you want more offense or more utility? Know that carrying more equipment means less room for weapons, and vice versa. This is not a problem, but the system working as intended.
Freya Tegley Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.06.08 20:14:00 - [16] - Quote I doubt it's "working as intended". None of the other merc packs have sold militia-quality items. The point of spending cash on a pack is that you get things you can't get already from the market - which is already chock full of militia blueprints. I doubt they meant to make a whole bunch of standard quality items... then make the sidearm a militia-fit instead.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 740	Posted - 2013.06.10 04:18:00 - [17] - Quote Freya Tegley wrote: I doubt it's "working as intended". None of the other merc packs have sold militia-quality items. The point of spending cash on a pack is that you get things you can't get already from the market - which is already chock full of militia blueprints. I doubt they meant to make a whole bunch of standard quality items... then make the sidearm a militia-fit instead. Yeah, I doubt it's working as intended either. None of their other merc pack stuff has been militia - probably because militia stuff is already so cheap and available. There's no incentive if you can already get it for aurum straight-up.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 818	Posted - 2013.06.10 12:36:00 - [18] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: I too have the elite pack, but this isn't really an issue. Train your fitting skills and learn that everything is a trade-off: do you want more offense or more utility? Know that carrying more equipment means less room for weapons, and vice versa. This is not a problem, but the system working as intended. I'm curious what you feel is the trade off. The weapon with which the the pistol emulates has a fitting of 11cpu/2pg. The Dren has 20cpu/5pg for the same stats. Regardless of my fitting skills the fact remains that with the extra space provided with a normal pistol could be used to use an upgraded grenade/weapon/module. You mention the tradeoff of offense or utility. In this instance the tradeoff is you gain 675isk for the cost of 9cpu/3pg. The amount of SP I have willingly put into increasing my fitting stats an equivalent amount is so great that even if a 1:1 equivalent relationship were assumed I still would have spent more SP than the ISK spent for several months of pistols. We also have the lack of needed SP spent. However the pistol is so cheap in SP cost that I could earn the dues in several games. Keep in mind this is generally a reserve weapon as well, and anyone wishing to take advantage of it as a primary weapon would be using higher tier weapons or simply would happily pay the cost for a standard pistol, both in skill and isk. In the end the primary mechanics of the weapon (because of fitting costs) become such that I simply spend time seeing what suits could fit it after any skills are purchased which grant me more space in my fittings, which is tedious and from a design perspective, not fun. Freya Tegley wrote: I doubt it's "working as intended". None of the other merc packs have sold militia-quality items. The point of spending cash on a pack is that you get things you can't get already from the market - which is already chock full of militia blueprints. I doubt they meant to make a whole bunch of standard quality items... then make the sidearm a militia-fit instead. As stated, support has replied that it is indeed working as intended, you are welcome to message them yourself
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 746	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:25:00 - [19] - Quote I recall from my Raven/Sever support experience that they initially gave me a line about how event items wouldn't be reimbursed (despite it now being one), and quoted some things back to me. At some point, after three messages or so, they acknowledged a mistake an refunded me. It may be that if there is no "note" or whatever on it, that the GMs are told it's "as intended". That is, anything not on a "known issues" list internally gets that reply. It could still be dev-overlooked though.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 822	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:40:00 - [20] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: I recall from my Raven/Sever support experience that they initially gave me a line about how event items wouldn't be reimbursed (despite it now being one), and quoted some things back to me. At some point, after three messages or so, they acknowledged a mistake an refunded me. It may be that if there is no "note" or whatever on it, that the GMs are told it's "as intended". That is, anything not on a "known issues" list internally gets that reply. It could still be dev-overlooked though. Fair point and certainly possible. I suggest we talk louder and LOUDER until someone says something.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 759	Posted - 2013.06.12 16:35:00 - [21] - Quote MUCH LOUDER
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.12 17:27:00 - [22] - Quote Maybe the problem is it's too rational. Maybe we need to ask for half the CPU/PG of normal items.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 762	Posted - 2013.06.12 19:56:00 - [23] - Quote Well, I have to admit I laugh a bit whenever I see that thread asking for 30% damage reduction on a heavy. That's gone unanswered for 10 pages though. I'd like to think simple messages get the point across to the devs... they just attract less WHARGARBLLL from common folk.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:19:00 - [24] - Quote hrm fair point. I figured my argument for what is fun would do the trick. I mean I usually go through my fits and see what can be adjusted after gaining new CPU/PG etc. Seeing what can fit a Dren as opposed to regular is just extra time where I have to check each fit. I'm about to go into either assault or logi gallante for a specialized build. Every time that build changes, whether through new equipment being available, new suits, better nades, new variations, etc etc. I have to spend an extra amount of time seeing if I can use something better if I went to standard Pistol. Now I do this anyway for the suits. If I downgraded this mod could I get another tier of this other one? Hrmm I might be close to using enhanced instead if I just used a standard grenade. I just got better fitting, I should see if I can use a sidearm again with my ideal build. However there is a large difference for me when I try and fit the dren. Mostly because the practice itself is a focus on optimization. Even if you don't obsess over that stuff, if you're willing to see what can fit then it means your willing to make an effort to be optimal. I'm sure many people more find fitting changes as they stumble upon them or leave extra CPU/PG as is not really caring. Valid things to do. However going back to those willing to optimize, and fitting the Dren in where they can, this does not coincide with the effort. A contrast is my medium fit where I use a standard SR. Due to PG use it is more difficult to fit. An exile would serve me fine really but the SR has a slight edge in my mind for my purposes and playstyle. That being said not all my fits can handle the SR do to fitting requirements. My uplinks fits for example will not fit an SR. However as I've increased my fitting skills I've gone back and seen what can and cannot fit. New things opened up. I fit an SR and swapped out modules that I was also happy with in order to keep it tight but workable. This allows me to use a longer range single shot, low ammo consumption weapon which I need without leveling AR for the tac (post nerf even). It also serves as a good weapon to keep heads down when holding ground. I make sacrifices for the privileges. Now instead I have the Dren, in which I also did do this. But it was not satisfying for me to do. It does not save me the same SP as the exile/SR bargain. It does not save me significant ISK, it does not give me a significant option in playstyle. However both these acts require the same amount of time which I hold precious and don't often get enough of for my taste. To me this distracts from fun activities. Now granted sometimes things that "can" be fun, aren't done. Often for many reasons. Sure being a super god would be fun, but destroys balance and the fun doesn't last long. Infinite ammo would be convenient, managing it is a hassle, but again this wouldn't help things. 30% damage reduction to heavy might make the heavies feel good but destroy balance and fun for others. Making the SR identical to the AR in terms of versatility might sound great but it would cause an imbalance of SR use because SR is more interesting but just as effective. I can't figure out what the barrier is preventing the change. I don't think anyone would complain P2W if it was altered. More pistol users might appear but I don't think a significant number as already argued. Granted now some people DO make sacrifices for style. Warbarg Bling forces a suit you won't use to the top fitting. This means it is slightly slower for you to change fittings at times. I've lived on that time when an enemy was on my tail I promise you. But I think the cost is lower, and the benefit for aesthetics much higher in that instance.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 768	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:19:00 - [25] - Quote You can already pay to get std-level equipment. You can already pay to get a scrambler BPO (militia). As for fitting in particular, I doubt balance issues had any larger role in it - the syndicate/toxin smgs were very easy to fit. I'm still pretty sure it has to be a database oversight or that sort of thing. Militia fitting for $100? Std fitting for the cheaper tiers? Seems off.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.13 12:25:00 - [26] - Quote Eh I don't like bringing $$$ into it. The concept that because I paid 100$ for the pack (aside from the fact that other items were included) should not differ if I paid down near the militia BPO cost. While certainly I don't think two things should be priced the same but one should be better, the amount higher in price shouldn't dictate how much better. If it is an oversight why no response at all? Why no response for how long in tech support forum, why no response here? Certainly someone with some actual connection should have read this topic by now. I've posted here, tech support, messaged tech support, and emailed Spero. Messaging tech support directly did get a response but nothing else and we do not know how the response was generated.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 773	Posted - 2013.06.13 22:01:00 - [27] - Quote I bring money into it specifically because every other "pack"-style purchase has featured equipment of standard grade. Aurum BPO options are mostly militia in contrast. So, it's sort of like they put a fair portion of the "std" options behind a merc-pack styled pay-wall (though I guess the Starter pack with Exile was slightly different). Whereas militia BPOs are something of an a la carte option. In that sense it's not necessarily an issue of "paying more" I guess. More-so, it's that the "std" gear is in bundles mostly. I suppose they've moved away from that slightly, since the two old BPO SMGs are on market and there's still those three MAG BPOs (though they require skills, unlike merc pack items).
Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 396	Posted - 2013.06.14 08:51:00 - [28] - Quote Thanks for the heads-up email, Rynx. o7 This is a reasonable request - though you won't have much success with support or through GM's. The designers chose these stats for some reason, so there's nothing the GM's can do because its not a glitch or customer service issue. What I CAN do for you is ask CCP Wolfman about the decision to use these fitting requirements next time I speak to him, though there is no set schedule for when he hops on Skype. If I hear anything more about this I'll be sure to let you know here ASAP.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 828	Posted - 2013.06.14 12:19:00 - [29] - Quote And now we play the waiting game... which is much harder than the complaining game.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 787	Posted - 2013.06.15 17:30:00 - [30] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: And now we play the waiting game... which is much harder than the complaining game. Yup. I guess either way we were waiting for Dev's to "notice" things. You can only flog these issues for so long.



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