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RoundEy3
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.06.04 19:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote: The point of my post is that the gaming industry, regardless of genre, is turning into a kind of industry that basically rewards lazy behavior.
Woah woah, WOAH! wait a minute..... Isn't playing a game considered lazy behavior to begin with???
I actually agree with your view of the industy and certain titles I just couldn't help but question that concept. |
Cygnus 2112
D3LTA ACADEMY
19
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
What does entitlement have to do with this problem? Games are way to easy now, I agree but how are people that play easy games entitled? I think this is the real problem. Companies like Activision and EA found their big money makers and now their afraid to let them go. Thats why you see the same CoD, or any other game you suggested, every year. Those make money so companies dont want to change the money maker and risk a decrease in profits. As for micro transactions, there just a way for those companies to maximize their profits. Nothing to do with entitlement. Unless Im misunderstanding something here. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
2565
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cygnus 2112 wrote:What does entitlement have to do with this problem? Games are way to easy now, I agree but how are people that play easy games entitled? I think this is the real problem. Companies like Activision and EA found their big money makers and now their afraid to let them go. Thats why you see the same CoD, or any other game you suggested, every year. Those make money so companies dont want to change the money maker and risk a decrease in profits. As for micro transactions, there just a way for those companies to maximize their profits. Nothing to do with entitlement. Unless Im misunderstanding something here.
Pay to win is one example of entitlements. How many games still do that? |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
103
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Here's some interesting points to take into consideration Maken:
Used games sold by retailers such as GameStop are bad for the industry and have wide ranging results on how developers try to charge for their services.
Games mainly fail because of a lack of player effort equity.
Moneyquote:
Quote: What if I spent three months earning the first horse in a game, and then a few days later I found out that 500 other players now had horses. But this was not due to a bug per se, this was because the game host decided that horses were cool and that players would pay real money for them. Again I describe this in Mona Lisa. Now horses are not cool anymore, and my equity has been destroyed. I'm upset! More importantly, I have now lost confidence in the game world and it's hosts because I know they will not protect my efforts. This is like calling the cops (the people you pay to protect you) and having them mug you when they arrive! I know this really happens in some parts of the world but you don't want it happening in your game space.
Thus all microtransactions that sell game content also destroy equity. This applies to anything normally GÇ£earnedGÇ¥ in a game, whether it is levels, items, abilities or titles.
When a game gets stale and the dev team puts out a new expansion, the addition of new things to earn gives new equity opportunities. This is a good thing. When that same expansion makes previously valuable content worthless, this destroys equity. If it took me 1000 hours to get the top sword in the game, and a new expansion comes out that gives you a better sword in 100 hours, I have just lost equity. While adding new content is usually a welcome change to a game, this dynamic can be treacherous and designers unaware of this can actually kill off their game with expansion content.
Another way we destroy equity in games is by putting resources in GÇ£tiersGÇ¥. If your GÇ£end gameGÇ¥ craftable items only use last tier components, then you have destroyed the equity of all lower tier resources by design. This makes players upset. This design was copied from Everquest into World of Warcraft and even into Guild Wars 2 ten years later despite the presence of an economist embedded in the design team.
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Gruul Upgrayedd
Dust-Bunny Suppliers
3
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
I see the point you are trying to make and I agree. Its hard to find a game with a challenge anymore that's not playing on very hard mode or something. I went from playing Dark Souls/Demon Souls and decided to play God of ***** 3 and was appaled that after defeating each enemy or seemingly each jump I make the game autosaves and I can respawn 10 seconds from anywhere I die with absolutely no consequence. Unlike DS where one misstep can lose you hours or even days worth of progress. Its funny when you play any other game after Dark/Demon souls, its like they are made for a 6 year old with ADD. All kinds of games like Bioshock/Resident Evil/ Infamous/Darksiders are laughably easy on standard difficulty. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
68
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:40:00 -
[66] - Quote
But Dust is a MP game that takes skill to play whether you have SP or not - the more SP the easier it is versus less skilled players or very low SP players.
I want to understand what you guys want to change pertaining to Dust because it is not one type of player that comes on here wanting the game balanced a certain way.
I think CCP does a very poor job (bless your heart posters who post constantly to pull the truth out of the devs) of communicating what they desire from certain parts of this game.
Also - Dust isnt a Demon Souls type of game, it is trying to appeal to a wide crossection. The logi suit is the prime example as it was put there for those who may not have great gun game |
Karazantor
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
+1
However you have to remember this game was specifically designed by CCP to suck the money out of our pockets. After the 'monacle' debacle in EVE it was clear that cash transactions would not be welcome there thankfully (yes there is a certain level of it though), DUST was guaranteed to be rife with it.
The rather revolting little entitled COD (etc) whiners are the ones who open their wallets rather than put in hard work, thus CCP will pander to them. DUST is about cash, not 'immersive gameplay'.
It doesn't half show either. The comments in my own little rant on 'Aurum' sum up pretty well what you are dealing with. Years of easy mode and TV advertising has created a group of players that enjoy being abused by this crap and actually think its normal.
Really agree with everything you say, but this particular horse bolted a decade ago, closing the stable door now isn't going to save anything |
Desivo Delta
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.06.04 21:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
+1 and a like for the OP. |
PonyClause Rex
TRAMADOL KNIGHTS
48
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Posted - 2013.06.04 21:39:00 -
[69] - Quote
Listen OP and listen well, when i hand over my hard earned money to a company i feel an overwhelming sense of entitlement because i expect to get a good quality service for my money and especially when a company is advertising a product and delivering something else then they should expect complaints, alot of them.
Its even law in some country's ever heard of consumer rights?
Ya dig?
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agustis caesar
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.06.04 22:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
Its not just video games, its society as a whole. I am not "old", but I see it very clearly in the younger generation (the 25 year olds and younger).
No one ever gave me anything, why should anyone else feel entitled to get anything?
This DT for example. IT WAS NOT CCP's FAULT. I dont want anything form them, nor would I expect it. Even if it was their fault, IT is like hard and stuff (I work in IT). *hit happens. Servers go down all the time, ram goes bad, motherboards need replacing, cabling goes bad, fiber gets pinched, wrong commands get typed etc...
I am happy with Dust (although has room for improvement). CCP is actually a very cool company, Ive been to Fan fest and met them. I have also been to an SOE fan fest, and seeing the contrast between the two is fascinating....for example the SOE employees had to walk around with their beers covered with napkins....lol. I was getting hammered with the CCP devs.
Lay off CCP and dont QQ for free ****. |
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EKH0 0ne
R.I.f.t
57
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Posted - 2013.06.04 22:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
TL;DR
First 3 paragraphs = pathetic |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
512
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Posted - 2013.06.04 23:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote: Again, I don't blame you for feeling so entitled. It's not your fault. You fell for the trap that many of these companies setup just for you. I hope you realize the slavery of your life in this prison.
I disagree about it not being the players fault. Blaming the game companies for this behavior is along the same lines as blaming video games for mass shootings. "Oh poor Timmy shot up a school, but its not his fault, it's the evil corporations with their violent video games that forced him into this"
The irony of what you are implying, that it is these companies that made people like this, is a big part of the problem with today's youth and is mixed right into the entitlement culture. Blaming others for their own actions, and not taking responsibility.
This is today's youth, the game companies are not the ones causing it, but in fact they are just going along for the ride and taking advantage of the current culture to maximize profits. They are certainly not helping I'll grant you that, but first and foremost it is all on the person who accepts or denies it in the end.
It's like CCP trying to blame us for the way their game turned out, when they were the ones making the changes and deciding on what to do. Nobody is holding a gun to their head and telling them to do this or that, it is all on them. We can suggest and demand till our fingers are black and blue, but in the end they are the ones making the decisions, not us.
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Rekon Syport
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
16
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Posted - 2013.06.05 18:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cygnus 2112 wrote: I think this is the real problem. Companies like Activision and EA found their big money makers and now their afraid to let them go. Thats why you see the same CoD, or any other game you suggested, every year. Those make money so companies dont want to change the money maker and risk a decrease in profits. As for micro transactions, there just a way for those companies to maximize their profits. Unless Im misunderstanding something here.
This is the problem from a SPAN of GAMING standpoint. It's like MTV. The innovation is GONE and the diversity because the companies have figured out how to work less and cookie cutter a formula and then add even more costing content. I don't blame anyone, we allowed DLC to exist and server hosted games, and so it is acceptable to overpay for games with unfinished content where they don't HAVE to feel they are giving you something complete because complete means having to find a new idea and new investment on maybe a successful game or a flop. Too risky these days and requires actual work . They ain't got time fo dat!"
A young gamer will not really see the transitions but maybe when they are 40 they will. It's the Jordan debate really. You don't know what you weren't there to experience.
Spkr4theDead - I am not judging you as an FPS only player. You are just a niche and that's fine. With the casual gamers flocking and outnumbering the jack of all trade gamers of yore who seek out great games because a great game is a great game regardless of platform, it is where companies are focusing their efforts. It's a win win for those fans. It's just a sad loss of lack of innovation for every other platform but I understand the business model. It's about business first. Sometimes it sucks to be the fan and not the business man.
I would love to sit and find out what you did play before you were a shooter fan since that platform is "newer" and you stated you played before you were a shooter specific player. We can chat about Quake and Unreal and Doom and Castle Wolfenstien but then where does that go when we get into the REAL culture of gaming. . . The Golden Age of gaming and pioneers to the ideas. What about Action Adventure BEFORE they went FPPOV, RTS/TB, Grid (Strat), I'll even ignore RPG since many think it's the only other option, Simulation, Novel/Interactive, Puzzle/Horror/Thriller (NO RE series is no longer in this genre, Bio Shock is not a Horror either)
I'm glad there is indie gaming at such a high level because companies no longer care to innovate. They wanna out do the next guys "flare and particles, then let you nolife-book about it socially.
Nice to see a good discussion on the forums for a change. So many areas to delve into on this one. Thanks to all for keeping it open and on track.
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Rekon Syport
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
16
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Posted - 2013.06.05 19:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
Totally forgot Scrolling Mascots.
Still best thread on all the Dust Forums. Thanks Tosch. |
Obodiah Garro
Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance
48
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Posted - 2013.06.05 19:41:00 -
[75] - Quote
Nice one OP, but that's what happens over time things change, the mentality for gaming has changed and the under 25-30 crowd nowadays have no idea what your talking about.
Games have gotten easier, the genres broader and more accessible, the game companies much larger and need to exploit wallets more. Plus common check out how popular COD is, and next time your out for a pint check how stupid kids are these days. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
2579
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:00:00 -
[76] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:Nice one OP, but that's what happens over time things change, the mentality for gaming has changed and the under 25-30 crowd nowadays have no idea what your talking about.
Games have gotten easier, the genres broader and more accessible, the game companies much larger and need to exploit wallets more. Plus common check out how popular COD is, and next time your out for a pint check how stupid kids are these days.
I have seen how popular is has gotten. It's great that a game gets some recognition, but it's another to see a game become a tired old meme. At that point, I only play the game because of the story line. If I wanted to play a mindless shoot-em-up game, I'll stick to Halo. At least Halo has a very strong mythology behind its multiplayer. Ever wondered why much of the game has constant references to the Norse gods?
I know things change, but that doesn't mean we should abandon the core principles of what makes a great game. You know you got a great game because of its originality, not because of its title.
What made Doom and Mortal Kombat so popular? They both introduced the concept of violent gameplay which resulted in the creation of the ESRB (entertainment safety rating board).
What made Pong so great? It brought the arcade to the living room.
What made the Orange Box so great? Garry's Mod to start off.
What made Ghost Recon so great? Customizable fittings and team effort for online play.
What made Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulator so great? Dogfights with accurate flight handling and third party expansions
What made Laminar Research's X-Plane so great? Extremely accurate flight handling and rendering alone with flexible tools for third-party expansions.
What made MAG so great before it got screwed over? Massive number of players in one match. Dust is trying to succeed where MAG failed.
Now, what will make Dust so great in the near future? The fact that it is now breaking ALL OF THE RULES of mainstream gaming and forcing FPS players into a world where anything goes... even AWOXing and metagaming. Say goodbye to the carebear concept.
Of course, Dust is messed up in many ways and I'm annoyed by a specific few (one being the hit detection), but so did Eve Online when it first started. Again, if it weren't for the Eve Online players, Dust would not have existed. As I said before, we owe it to those Capsuleers to stay true to the core principles in which they established 10 years ago.
1. Adapt or Die 2. Don't use what you can't afford to lose. 3. Accept the permanent consequences of your choices.
Right now, it seems a portion of the FPS players are having a hard time coming to grips with #3. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
58
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Posted - 2013.06.06 20:33:00 -
[77] - Quote
I agree with your post on the whole, but I think that I level most of the blame on the individuals.
I cannot entirely fault game companies for trying to make a buck and capitalizing on the same human weaknesses that have been prevalent all through history; weakness, lack of will power and laziness..... I agree some effort should be made to not take advantage of a common human weakness, companies should not strive so hard to get folks hooked and take advantage, but I do see those on the receiving end needing to step up their game and resist and think for themselves.
A lot of people are looking for the easy way out, and after time come to expect those in their environment to provide it to them (for a price or just because they 'deserve' it) so they don't have to walk the hard path and fight their way through whatever challenge is before them.
Maybe there is some old saying about sacrificing liberty for security or something that is somewhat relevant... kind-of....
In the end it comes down to willpower, resistance, badassery or whatever v.s. laziness, entitlement and just general softness.
It's a personal choice, whether it's made consciously or not.
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Allah's Snackbar
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
67
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Posted - 2013.06.06 20:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
I hope you're crying about starving African babies as well OP or your priorities are shamefully out of whack. |
Smoky The Bear
Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel
100
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 21:29:00 -
[79] - Quote
hmm .. i dont see entitlement issues with DUST..
I see a broken game and CCP should be desperate to do anything to save it..
Anyone who is still here and posting, is either an AR tryhard .. or a vet that is simply trying to help this game along.. Ya I think pay to win is stupid, but lazy people who paid for their W's wont last, and probably STILL dont have as much SP's as someone who earned them..
Lets face it.. NOBODY was going to pay $ for this game up front.. so pay to win is the only way this game would have ever seen the light of day |
Krisuke 003
WildCard Ninja Clan
14
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Posted - 2013.06.06 22:37:00 -
[80] - Quote
I'm reading quite a bit of pining for the good old days when the focus of gaming was a good campaign. Pining for days long past is not adapting. Its whimpering as you die and the gaming industry passes you by.
What I see is a game thats free to download and play, because its funded in part by people spending cash on stuff. You're telling me I can play this game free because some guy wants to pay for a fancy gun? Awesome.
Now imagine this. You grew up playing those games in the early days of gaming. Now you're a grown adult with responsibilities. But you still enjoy gaming. You just got done working 10-12 hours of a tough job, and you've got an hour of free time. How are you going to spend it? Grinding for an hour, or playing a game that allows you to maximise your fun before you need to go back to being a spouse/parent/employee. And then some one with a great big soapbox and an axe to grind.
I feel with you new Eden vets concerned about the character of the universe you love. But to make summary judgements on peoples characters like some of you are doing? You've got some serious maturing to do.
Oh, and by the way, if the games of days long past had the ability to download dlc, they would have been so much the better for it. Id rathar have a solid game out sooner with the promise of expanding than a game that never makes it out of the publishers office because the release date keeps getting pushed back.
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Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1560
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Posted - 2013.06.06 22:43:00 -
[81] - Quote
herp derp entitlement |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
218
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Posted - 2013.06.07 02:35:00 -
[82] - Quote
It's funny I think you are actually talking about Dust: getting achievements with a swipe of credit card. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
774
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Posted - 2013.06.07 03:08:00 -
[83] - Quote
Thats great and all but instead of making sweeping generalizations why not just go ahead and say whats actually on your mind. Thanks for the info, but where are you trying to place DUST in this whole shebang...? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
2591
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Posted - 2013.06.07 03:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
Krisuke 003 wrote:I'm reading quite a bit of pining for the good old days when the focus of gaming was a good campaign. Pining for days long past is not adapting. Its whimpering as you die and the gaming industry passes you by.
I have a handful of friends who are dedicated first-person shooter veterans who play a **** ton of game titles. One of the things they seem to have in common is that they don't buy a new game because of the good campaign. They mainly buy it for the gameplay part of it as well as how "original" it is compared to others. To these folks, campaigns hardly matter. It's just another mission to plow through with prettier graphics. One of these guys often plays as much as a dozen games within a single month but of course he plays more than just FPS games. He also plays mixed games like Smash Bros., Anarchy Reigns, Halo, Call of Duty, BlazBlue, and a bunch of other games he didn't mention. This comes to show that a good game needs to do more than just pull out a good campaign storyline. That's where the originality comes in.
Defiance is a good example of a game trying to be original by incorporating persistent gameplay with that of a TV show.
Dust 514 is another example in which... oh hell I already mentioned it. Although it still needs a crap ton of fixing.
I believe Destiny is also trying to achieve some originality, although I'm having trouble thinking what makes it original.
Smash Bros. achieved originality by throwing in all of the Nintendo/Sega/other game characters into one big brawl and so far that game is famous to the point that my friends and my girlfriend love it. I'm also hooked to it regardless that I suck in that game. Now Sony is showcasing similar games like Battle Royale in order to compete.
Even Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword retained originality in the modern times by allowing players a more direct connection to the Master Sword via the Wii Motion Plus controller.
Then there is innovation like when Eve Online finally featured an economy (known as the New Eden economy) that is so perfect and balanced that to this day several game-reporting sites rank the economy as #1 in best mmo economy in the gaming industry. This was something many other MMOs have tried but failed to innovate. It only got better with the introduction of PLEX which was another grand innovation.
I'm pretty sure there are other games out there that innovated such Mortal Kombat (one of the recent ones) when it introduced full 3D models of the fighters (organs and skeleton included) which is what drove many people to buy the game.
I will give credit to Call of Duty for pushing the limit with graphics which are awesome at least.
As you can see. Pinning to the past does allow adaptation so long as doing so brings forth originality and innovation. That is what makes a game great these days and it's what helps game stand out from the crowd. |
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