You don't have to pay to have any type of in-game advantage over other players.

I'm goin to have to disagree with you on this one...

Name 3 pay-to-win items that CCP haven't already announced plans to fix or release an ISK version of?

No. Is a different way to make money from a game. Nothing is "free" in life. Why i just make a thread about this, you may ask.

Because I getting kitten sick of hearing people saying, that We have not rights, because is a F2P game.

CCP is making money from Dust 514 with AUR... EvE is not paying for Dust 514, CCP is paying for Dust 514.

Name 3 pay-to-win items that CCP haven't already announced plans to fix or release an ISK version of?

Why i just make a thread about this, you may ask.

Let me ask you a question... :

If Dust 514 is truly "Free", why the game have a cash currency ( AUR ). ?

Let me ask you a question... :

If Dust 514 is truly "Free", why the game have a cash currency ( AUR ). ?

Can you define 'Free to Play' for me ... I'm having trouble understanding it !?

Name 3 pay-to-win items that CCP haven't already announced plans to fix or release an ISK version of?

No. Is a different way to make money from a game. Nothing is "free" in life. Why i just make a thread about this, you may ask.

Because I getting kitten sick of hearing people saying, that We have not rights, because is a F2P game.

CCP is making money from Dust 514 with AUR... EvE is not paying for Dust 514, CCP is paying for Dust 514.

No...just no. It's not possible to be that stupid.

is it?

I can say 2 BIG ones.

- BPO's that allow you to make ISK faster. ( Access to Proto gear in regular basics )

- Passive SP boosters that give you a HUGE skills advantage.

You sir are an idiot. Those items give you no advantage over other players at all. You get you ISK and SP faster then I can. Ok, so what if I get my new toy a week after you get it? I still get all the same items you get. You have no advantage.

We really need a dislike button that we can hit on guys like you.

That is Pay To Win.... Sorry if you dislike the truth.

You're mistaking pay to win with pay to get proto gear. Proto gear and winning are not mutually exclusive.

Fact 1: Is a 6,000,000+ sp CAP, because people are been using passive boosters every week.

Fact 2 : BPO's don't cost ISK to run, and they are as effective as the ISK equivalents. You can get Proto gear 3 times faster using BPO's.

That is Pay To Win.... Sorry if you dislike the truth.

No. Is a different way to make money from a game. Nothing is "free" in life. Why i just make a thread about this, you may ask.

Because I getting kitten sick of hearing people saying, that We have not rights, because is a F2P game.

CCP is making money from Dust 514 with AUR... EvE is not paying for Dust 514, CCP is paying for Dust 514.

Who cares if it's pay to win your wrong but who cares it's a company not a charity organization. Listen go start up a company make a free game figure out how you're going to pay your employees. Then come back and tell us the results of said fail experiment.

I'm smart enough to know nothing in life is free or fair, if CCP wants to sell AUR items that give a slight advantage MORE POWER TO THEM, guess what I will buy it. Tears I love it

I can say 2 BIG ones.

- BPO's that allow you to make ISK faster. ( Access to Proto gear in regular basics )

- Passive SP boosters that give you a HUGE skills advantage.

I've never spent money on DUST and I still play it. Completely for free.

BPOs that let you do things FASTER, but don't give you access to anything that a non-paying player can get?
SP Boosters that let you do things FASTER, but don't give you access to anything that a non-paying player can get?

Yep. That's totally pay-to-win.

That is exactly my point...

The game may be F2P... what we still are "Paying" costumers. Some people thinks that F2P means; that CCP is doing all this to keep EvE players happy ...And that is far from the truth.

You don't have to pay to play, but they give you the option to be a little bit a head of everyone else, that's your choice, but you don't not have to pay to play this game, unless you are talking about having to pay for internet and having to pay for a PS3 so you can pay the game, but if you already do those things then this is a free to play game

Indeed True!

Lets you "Win" Faster, AKA ; Pay To Win.

You can't defend this.. sorry. Cosmetics or Expansions will be a different story, but not this.

I can say 2 BIG ones.

- BPO's that allow you to make ISK faster. ( Access to Proto gear in regular basics )

- Passive SP boosters that give you a HUGE skills advantage.

I don't think you are understanding what the term "Pay-to-win" means in these types of games.

Pay to win refers to a practice where certain items in the store are unavailable by any means in the rest of the game.
These items are also not simply cosmetic or make you spend lest time grinding, but instead are something akin to
"golden ammo", ammo that is literally better than anything else. An example of a true "pay-to-win" item would be
a super-protosuit or something else that is objectively better than any ISK equivalent.

On the matter of SP boosters, and BPOs, these don't fall into the category of Pay to Win. Instead they use what is the
common practice for free to play games "Pay to Advance." In the Pay to Advance model the game has natural hurdles,
or things that must be grinded to ensure your character gains in ability in the game. They then introduce items that let you
pay money to skip some of that grinding, or at least make it go by faster.

This is what skill boosters do. A unboosted player will still reach the same skills as a booster player, just slower. You should also note that Skill points don't give uncapped advantages. Ultimately there is a limit to how skills can boost your character in any one suit, and you can't go beyond that. All those extra skill points in tanking won't help your already maxed forge gunner at all. The unboosted player merely has to grind more to reach that point.

The BPOs follow the same principle but instead of avoiding the SP grind, it allows players to avoid the ISK grind. The suits you can buy a BPO of are cheap. Like less than 10k isk cheap. With costs for those items so low it isn't much of a hurdle to pay those costs per match, assuming one does not lose a huge number of suits. Ultimately if one were to use all BPO variants instead of the same level counterparts they would only be "gaining" a small portion of ISK per match, something around 20k ISK. Again, nothing stops a non-paying player from making as much ISK as somebody with a BPO, the BPO user (assuming he is using those BPOs and hasn't upgraded to better gear) simply makes the money a tad faster.


Generally the "Pay to Advance" Model exists to allow players with more income than free time to still be competitive in a game, without having to sacrifice as much time.

TL;DR: The two things you mentioned aren't Pay to Win.

[quote=Avallo Kantor]
All that "Blah, Blah" is just a guide line.

Pay To Win is anything that you buy with cash, that give you an unfair advantage against other players.

Eh just because somebody has more SP allocated into things (because they paid for an SP booster) doesn't mean they're good at the game.

For example thinking that 12million SP vs 2million SP gives the person with the higher number an advantage, means you lost way before you even fired a shot. Hell you lost before you even turned your PS3 on.

Thinking that you're at a disadvantage puts you in one....and the only person to blame is you.

If you know what to do ie. think strategically, attempt to know/counter the next move then the SP gap really means **** all.

It may take more time shooting your gun to drain their HP.. but more than 50% of the time the outcome should come out in your favor.

It's all about mindset.

And not to forget the person you're going against might just be better than you....and would still stomp you...even if you both were in Militia gear with 500,000 SP.

Easier to blame an outside thing over yourself tho, I suppose.

TL;DR: Just because someone has more SPs acquired by a booster doesn't mean it's P2W, because more SP =/= winning more.

Pay To Win is anything that you buy with cash, that give you an unfair advantage against other players.

Yes.

Exactly right.

Now lets go with that.

Do you get an UNFAIR advantage over other players by playing more, and getting more experience? No, because you earned it by playing more.

I agree that mindset makes a difference. I've always noticed that when I go into a gunfight while believing that I've already got it won my aim is generally better, more steady and my thoughts are more collected. Mindset does make a difference. However I still acknowledge that the guy with more SP has an advantage, especially from 2 mil to 12 mil SP. Holy crap. That's a difference of possibly double the HP, a better weapon, and many other small bonuses that add up to be equivalent to full on items being added to their suit.

I don't think anyone here is saying that superior play from a character with lower SP can't overcome a player with higher SP. That isn't the case at all IMHO. However, I don't understand how that nullifies the SP advantage. There still is one, let's not act like it's not there.

Even if you know what to do, that gap between 2 and 12 mil is still significant. With double the HP and a guy knowing how to move and experienced in shooters, you could get the jump on the player.. given it's at any decent range, he's got double your health, he'll probably have the ability to sprint and jump towards cover, wounded but then probably having just as much HP as you have.. and it'll be regenerating soon. Plus he knows where you are. Good player with low SP vs a terrible player with high SP, sure you can probably handle it.

That's an extremely situational example though, but more often than not I believe that's a large advantage that will make a significant difference. I don't believe that "thinking" you're not at a disadvantage will make it go away, it's not your fault for recognizing something that is clearly there in the first place.

Personally I don't have a problem with it, being a competent player while sitting on 8 mil SP. I've got no problem pub stomping and usually lead in PC battles, but I still feel this subject deserves some attention.