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The Relationship between ISK, SP and Gameplay

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Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 704	Posted - 2013.05.30 09:56:00 - [1] - Quote Currently, the life of a new mercenary will begin as follows: Play lots of Academy games. Acquire ISK. Purchase skill books, and spend SP on skill books. Purchase new equipment which is now unlocked. Down the track, the life of the mercenary alters and starts looking like: 1. Purchase equipment. 2. Die. 3. Purchase more equipment. 4. Upgrade skills to get even better equipment. Here's the problem. How many years must past before players don't need to think about step 4? When all necessary skills are unlocked? In an FPS where people like to shoot other people, it quickly becomes frustrating when one person has an obscene advantage over another. SP, however, due to the system through which we gain it, cannot be moderated to allow new players to overcome the disadvantage they face when beginning the game years after our bitter old veterans have. In EVE, there are a plethora of other things available to new players in the true sandbox single-sharded universe other than PvP. In DUST? The forum threads are my evidence. We want smoother frame rates, better hit detection, balanced gunplay, enjoyable battles, more modes, bigger maps, variations of maps. What does this all point towards? The core of a great FPS! And make no mistake, this is what DUST will be. Turning it into a more in-depth Ratchet and Clank game where players battle through waves of mobs is NOT where CCP wants to go with DUST. If that were so, we'd already have PvE and PvP wouldn't be such a predominant focus. So, back to the problem of SP. If the game's true nature is to be a 'AAA' FPS, then we simply cannot retain the current SP system. How the SP system should change Firstly, the significance of SP is that players can choose to specialise into a role on the battlefield, or not. It is the aspect of customisation which is so wonderful and unique to New Eden, thrown into an FPS. And that's the thing. It hasn't seemed to be built around DUST as an FPS, it's built around making it fit into EVE and New Eden. That's where things have to change. The acquisition of SP is fine. The combination of passive/active SP is perfect. What should change is how SP applies to skills and unlocking equipment. All items should be unlocked initially. Yeah, you read it right. Skills SHOULD NOT determine usage of weapons, vehicles, modules. What should they affect? Efficacy. All skills should provide passive bonuses. That should be their only function. However, make skills even more specific than we have them now. Each item should have its own skills which gives it passive bonuses. There should be different skills for each variant of equipment or weapon. Highlight an item's purpose on the battlefield through the bonuses its own specific skill provides it with. How ISK will complement this change to SP ISK. We are MERCENARIES, ladies and gentlemen! This should be the word which resonates with our souls and makes us salivate. But currently it isn't. If CCP currently offered us a choice of 2x SP for a week or 4x ISK for 5 weeks, which would you pick? I'd go SP, and you would too. But wait, why? Because deep down, we know there is a finite amount of SP a player needs in DUST, and if this game persists for another year or two, we'll find that amount. 50 million? 100 million? Whatever it is, past a certain point a DUST player will only be spending ISK. There is a finish line in sight and once we reach it, essentially we 'win' the game. This means more pain for new players who have to play us once they're released from the comfort of the battle academy. This is not how it should work. Which is why ISK must be the moderating factor for balance. Firstly, the market was also intended to be merged into EVE's. So lets use a dummy variable for now. X = the % increase to current item prices to ensure ISK flow between the two games will be balanced. Hopefully, CCP knows or is in the process of calculating exactly what our X% is. But that's irrelevant currently. All we must understand currently is that when prices do increase by X%, so too will battle payouts. So my proposal: Make advanced gear cost 10x more than standard gear, and prototype gear should cost AT LEAST 10x more than advanced gear. This includes equipment, vehicles, modules, etc. i.e. If an advanced dropsuit costs 8000 now, with my suggestion it should cost 8000 x 10 x (X%). A player must FEAR using prototype, even advanced equipment, because of the ISK cost. Payouts in instant battles should never cover the cost of the loss of even one prototype suit. TL;DR: In conclusion: ISK should be what SP is now. Currently, you don't lose SP when you die. What do you lose? ISK. Your total earned ISK is always fluctuating, but SP never goes down; it always increases. And as it is now, a mercenary's SP will eventually reach a point where it isn't needed anymore, where all gear is unlocked, and ISK is all we need to worry about. So why not just CUT TO THE GODDAMN CHASE, and give all players all equipment, unlocked? Skills provide bonuses based on the item's purpose, and that is all. They unlock nothing; there should be no item prerequisites. Except one requirement. ISK. EVERYTHING should be bloody expensive, even skill books. Only in PC battles should payouts be greater than the investment into prototype suits even after dying numerous times. In all other cases, players should PREFER to run militia gear because they need ISK, which they not only need to spend once to acquire a weapon, but dozens of times; once per death with that item. This will allow DUST to persevere. Or else we can wait a year or two, and when we realise the limitations of the current SP system, I'll probably be around to say "I told you so.".
GLiMPSE X IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 90	Posted - 2013.05.30 10:08:00 - [2] - Quote This game might not be fore you. There isn't an 'obscene' advantage to be had after investing a bit of time in the game. 5 mil, specialized sp, can compete just fine with 10-15 mil. Things curve very hard towards the upper end of skills. I quite enjoy the need to play to build up sp to unlock new things. Giving me something to work for so I can't see everything there is to do in a month and be done with the game. Progression is what Dust is about, you take that away and you might as well play a different game.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 324	Posted - 2013.05.30 10:34:00 - [3] - Quote I like the idea but I also think it would hurt the premise of DUST. It is not that I want noobs to suffer or think that they should have started earlier but I do think that the SP system as it is rewards players for playing and gives people a reason to come back. I do like the part about the proto gear being very expensive. Viziams were like 87k last build and now they are 47K, I love my LR but I think that the prices are too low and I couldn't agree more about the payout of a battle in public matches being able to only buy one proto suit.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 394	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:00:00 - [4] - Quote The OP is right. You need only have 15 million or so SP, and be spec'd as an assault or logi. Game over. You win. Everything else is just there to be experimented with. Just enough SP to use an AR, have a good suit with a nice set of modules, and moderate AV capability. Done. Within 15 million SP, a basic player can come, get what he needs to win, and leave. ISK is irrelevant in the current context. People just field proto with impunity. It should hurt as bad to lose proto suits in DUST, as much as it does to lose a Battleship or greater in EVE.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 394	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:11:00 - [5] - Quote I used to be so focused on just saving cash, and I took pride in knocking down players using protosuits, making sure to shoot their corpse to ensure it's lost. But they just keep coming back with proto. Over and over. By the next match, they have already forgotten about all the protosuits I've taken from them. Meanwhile, they are padding KDR and just trucking along through protosuits with impunity. Meanwhile what have I done by being so fiscally responsible/tactical? Nothing, but see my own KDR gradually drop, while proto-spammers just wreck games so quickly that they inevitably make back all the money I steal from them. It's at the point, that I don't care anymore. I just slap on the flavor-of-the-month, and spam whatever the fk is OP/imbalanced, and proto-stomp like any other giddy-headed elitist. There is no real Risk/Reward system in Dust currently. Planetary Conquest matches should be REAL and RAW wars of attrition. You field proto to defend/attack a district, and the ISK damages inflicted on both ends should be enormous and painful. Even if you keep on successfully defending a district.... the real question would be, "Can you afford to keep on defending that district?" That question isn't even remotely asked.
Cosgar's Alt Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 66	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:22:00 - [6] - Quote SP isn't an "I win button." You'll never see buleberry (10,000,00 SP) redberry on the kill feed. What SP does, is let you customize your character more than the 4 starter BPO kits we all start with. You're talking about changing the entire way the game is set up. Sure there are flaws with this system, but it needs a tweak, not a full overhaul.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 706	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:31:00 - [7] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: This game might not be fore you. There isn't an 'obscene' advantage to be had after investing a bit of time in the game. 5 mil, specialized sp, can compete just fine with 10-15 mil. Things curve very hard towards the upper end of skills. I quite enjoy the need to play to build up sp to unlock new things. Giving me something to work for so I can't see everything there is to do in a month and be done with the game. Progression is what Dust is about, you take that away and you might as well play a different game. Okay, I let myself get carried away and my main point was contradicted a little. Ignore the rambling introduction, I'll delete it later if I have to, and focus on my proposals. You enjoy building up SP to unlock new things? Good. Now, you keep building up SP. Lets say for... 5 years? CCP projected DUST a decade into the future. I'm looking with them towards that vision, and with this system, you'll find there won't be anything to work for in a couple of years, let alone 10.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 706	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:36:00 - [8] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: SP isn't an "I win button." You'll never see buleberry (10,000,00 SP) redberry on the kill feed. What SP does, is let you customize your character more than the 4 starter BPO kits we all start with. You're talking about changing the entire way the game is set up. Sure there are flaws with this system, but it needs a tweak, not a full overhaul. I never said SP was a 'win' button. I'm saying this SP system won't last long enough; I apologise if I didn't make that clear. Tweaks? What possible tweaks do you suggest? Twiddle with the multipliers? Fiddle with the passive bonuses? In a few years, we'd have to make countless 'tweaks' to account for the fact that there simply is not enough flexibility in this SP system to allow new players to assimilate into the game a year from now and become competent before they become annoyed, frustrated, bored, or a combination of those three and others. And these countless tweaks may as well be a complete overhaul now. Basic customisation is provided by the SP system, but is also currently limited by it.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 394	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:51:00 - [9] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: GLiMPSE X wrote: This game might not be fore you. There isn't an 'obscene' advantage to be had after investing a bit of time in the game. 5 mil, specialized sp, can compete just fine with 10-15 mil. Things curve very hard towards the upper end of skills. I quite enjoy the need to play to build up sp to unlock new things. Giving me something to work for so I can't see everything there is to do in a month and be done with the game. Progression is what Dust is about, you take that away and you might as well play a different game. Okay, I let myself get carried away and my main point was contradicted a little. Ignore the rambling introduction, I'll delete it later if I have to, and focus on my proposals. You enjoy building up SP to unlock new things? Good. Now, you keep building up SP. Lets say for... 5 years? CCP projected DUST a decade into the future. I'm looking with them towards that vision, and with this system, you'll find there won't be anything to work for in a couple of years, let alone 10. No. I saw no contradictions. With how things are working currently. The level of content does not equal the projected game lifetime. Just as was pointed out. Someone is fully competitive in PVP with just several million SP. So that's it. They are done. They can compete just fine in PVP, and they have the build that they want (generally an assault, why bother use anything else?). So all the extra SP is just to toy around with. They sign on, attack and defend some districts. Crush some newberries. Then log out. Game. You pointed out that more than PVP must be introduced to the game. That's a big obvious. I see a skill branch for Corporation control. I won't be putting any SP into that for the foreseeable future. What else, not combat related is there? PVE? God forbid we keep mentioning that, players will blow horns and say CCP has priorities it needs to take care of. We've been ignoring PVE content for a year now. Honestly, it's not PVP alone that is going to carry Dust into the future. It's how PVP is maintained through PVE mechanics and the connection that they both have to EVE lore that will. You need to be able to come into the game world, and watch the news, so to speak. Or enter the game world, and look at the list of contracts available... Factional Warfare is a very good step in the right direction, but more is needed. What if players don't really want to PVP? What if they want to spend their time RPing as drone hunters? And collecting drops from that activity in different districts to sell on the Player Market? The significance that ISK has to the game has to be increased in some way. Tool creation, drones, crafting, player markets, market control. The AR can't be the means to every possible end.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 517	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:58:00 - [10] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: SP, however, due to the system through which we gain it, cannot be moderated to allow new players to overcome the disadvantage they face when beginning the game years after our bitter old veterans have. This same point gets brought up in EVE all the time and it is actually worse there because there are so many side skills that affect your ship. But here, honeslty... All you need is a core set of skills and you are on the same page as all the Vets. Proto Armor, Max Complement Skills like Armor, Shield, Shield Extender, Max Weapon stat and Weapon Damage stat. I would say maxed grenade, but the Fused Grenades dont need skills to use....... That is 6 skills you need capped to be really competitive. Its not perfect, but its close enough to put you on the same page as any

Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 398	Posted - 2013.05.30 12:10:00 - [11] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: SP, however, due to the system through which we gain it, cannot be moderated to allow new players to overcome the disadvantage they face when beginning the game years after our bitter old veterans have. This same point gets brought up in EVE all the time and it is actually worse there because there are so many side skills that affect your ship. But here, honeslty... All you need is a core set of skills and you are on the same page as all the Vets. Proto Armor, Max Complement Skills like Armor, Shield, Shield Extender, Max Weapon stat and Weapon Damage stat. I would say maxed grenade, but the Fused Grenades dont need skills to use....... That is 6 skills you need capped to be really competitive. Its not perfect, but its close enough to put you on the same page as any vet What's that... roughly 5-8mil skill points? That can't be gained overnight, but it can still be gained fairly quickly. They get that, and unless they really want to run a corporation, there's not much left in the game to keep them entertained.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4085	Posted - 2013.05.30 12:49:00 - [12] - Quote "All items should be unlocked initially. Yeah, you read it right. Skills SHOULD NOT determine usage of weapons, vehicles, modules. What should they affect? Efficacy. All skills should provide passive bonuses. That should be their only function. However, make skills even more specific than we have them now. Each item should have its own skills which gives it passive bonuses. There should be different skills for each variant of equipment or weapon. Highlight an item's purpose on the battlefield through the bonuses its own specific skill provides it with." I LOVE this idea
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4085	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:05:00 - [13] - Quote Might be a good idea to simplify the tiers, leave only advanced (rename it standard) and prototype. Advanced for most battles, prototype for important battles like PC. No need to have so many tiers. Advanced would be at current standard prices, and proto would be at least 10x that.
KING ZUMA The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 30	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:21:00 - [14] - Quote but then you will have so little to skill for
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4085	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:28:00 - [15] - Quote KING ZUMA wrote: but then you will have so little to skill for Wouldn't you want the skills bonuses? More damage, less dispersion, less CPU/PG consumption, more efficacy, more base shields, more base armor, more base PG/CPU, more ammo, bigger magazines, etc. The OP states that all skills would provide passive bonuses and increase efficacy.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4085	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:32:00 - [16] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I like the idea but I also think it would hurt the premise of DUST. It is not that I want noobs to suffer or think that they should have started earlier but I do think that the SP system as it is rewards players for playing and gives people a reason to come back. I do like the part about the proto gear being very expensive. Viziams were like 87k last build and now they are 47K, I love my LR but I think that the prices are too low and I couldn't agree more about the payout of a battle in public matches being able to only buy one proto suit. The quality of the gameplay and the meta-game should be what keeps players playing, not a work-like lifeless grind. The OP states that all skills would provide bonuses, which is plenty motivation. I really hate that gaming has become about dangling carrots on a stick to keep people playing instead of motivating players with fun gameplay.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 709	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:34:00 - [17] - Quote KING ZUMA wrote: but then you will have so little to skill for Yes, and no. With a skill system where there are unique skills for each and every item, right now there'd only be reason to upgrade certain skills for items you use most of the time. Fairly similar to what's happening now. However, throw ISK into the mixture, with ISK being a commodity that has much more value than what it does in DUST now, and now skills become rarely tapped into. People begin to think "Why spend ISK on skills?", and once that mentality is established, then skills become a truly persistent, progressive part of the game. Skills need to take a back seat, because they lead to burnouts or boredom otherwise. This is opposed to the current system, where skill book ISK prices are so low a player should be comfortable purchasing them within a week of play. One-time purchase to unlock cheap items. I am proposing a one-time purchase to provide bonuses to expensive items.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4102	Posted - 2013.05.31 00:01:00 - [18] - Quote Bump of revolutionary change!
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 73	Posted - 2013.05.31 00:47:00 - [19] - Quote I have played COD for possibly a total of one month worth of the time I have played this game. Within the first week of play I had reached level 50. "Cool man I got the highest level!" I said to my friend, who replied "great now you have prestige classes and levels to do, which unlock some badges and stuff for your name and some new face paint, no new weapons and you have to start back at level 1." I promptly turned off COD and turned Dust back on, where when I have managed to get a certain piece of gear it is worn and used like a badge of honor and dedication, rather than just a bit of face paint. The player driven economy of Eve will affect how Dust players purchase gear no questions asked but when that day comes, there is going to be a market that will fluctuate based on supply and demand. Players will be able to buy and sell on the market and make a profit off of something other than shooting people and theoretically this will make Dust more of an asset to Eve players, who will then have a new market to influence. Welcome to New Eden will be the popular chortle of joy from the Eve pilot selling Caldari C-1 suits for over 100,000 isk a piece to mercs new to the eve 0.01 market trading systems and fortunes will be won or lost in the markets. This day, the day of an open market, not regulated by an NPC chieftan, cannot come soon enough. Welcome to New Eden.
Thor McStrut Intara Direct Action Caldari State 20	Posted - 2013.05.31 01:13:00 - [20] - Quote Part of the problem here is that you see this game as IT. That there isn't anymore to be had, to add, to do. If you are looking 5-10 years down the road, then you'd see 50-60 new skills, 30 or so new dropsuits, 100 or more new weapons, tons of planets for the taking, and any amount of additional content CCP already has on the drawing board. And just for the record, most of the content here is already unlocked. It's called militia gear. If you decide you like using it, skill it up and unlock better versions of it. I'm satisfied with the current SP system in place, because of what it offers me now, and because I know what it'll be in 5+ years. I do agree about prototype level equipment though. It should be very expensive, and you should feel each and every loss.

Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.05.31 04:09:00 - [21] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: Part of the problem here is that you see this game as IT. That there isn't anymore to be had, to add, to do. If you are looking 5-10 years down the road, then you'd see 50-60 new skills, 30 or so new dropsuits, 100 or more new weapons, tons of planets for the taking, and any amount of additional content CCP already has on the drawing board. And just for the record, most of the content here is already unlocked. It's called militia gear. If you decide you like using it, skill it up and unlock better versions of it. I'm satisfied with the current SP system in place, because of what it offers me now, and because I know what it'll be in 5+ years. I do agree about prototype level equipment though. It should be very expensive, and you should feel each and every loss. On the contrary, I see the game as not even close to finished. Look at Uprising. The skill system became a much bigger SP sink compared to Chromosome to compensate for the fact that CCP only released a handful of new content after half a year. This is going to become a cycle where the SP system is adjusted to prevent veterans from unlocking everything, whilst new players are forced further and further behind. Why? Because CCP explicitly stated that they saw DUST lasting for a decade! Lets say there are 50-60 new skills in a couple of years. For simplicity's sake, lets say they all have 5x multipliers. That's roughly 1.5 million SP to max one skill. So in total, we have enough for a single player to invest 75 million SP into. In a year, average players earn 300k x 50 = 15 million SP, and that's assuming you earn 32k SP from active SP per week. Now, in 5 years, that's, interestingly enough, 75 million SP. So, 10 new skills a year, and players should be able to match the SP investment even if they're earning what I consider to be the bare minimum of active SP. Either we keep increasing the sinkhole and grindfest of SP, or make the grinding ISK-centric. When players start grinding for ISK, we will see the solution to not only keeping DUST alive in the long term, but also to problems such as protostomping. If gear costs are massive, no one wants to lose that in an instant battle. But it's there and it's unlocked. It's just not simply purchaseable. > More discussion, please. This is only the first thread; a revised edition will most likely be posted after further contemplation and critique is taken into account. I'm adamant about this.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 1188	Posted - 2013.05.31 04:18:00 - [22] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: This game might not be fore you. There isn't an 'obscene' advantage to be had after investing a bit of time in the game. 5 mil, specialized sp, can compete just fine with 10-15 mil. Things curve very hard towards the upper end of skills. I quite enjoy the need to play to build up sp to unlock new things. Giving me something to work for so I can't see everything there is to do in a month and be done with the game. Progression is what Dust is about, you take that away and you might as well play a different game. Hmm that seems so....incorrect? Send Starter fit player, no SP investments against Proto gear Heavy SP Investing. Given that they stand there and shoot eachother, Proto wins every time. Do the same thing but allow them to strafe and move. Proto will win such a majority of the time, because the Proto Suit doesn't need to land as many shots as the Starter fit user, and on top of that can sustain more damage than the starter fit user. There is a reason for higher gear level in the game, and that is to be better. Gear = SP, so SP = the more the merrier. It would honestly take substantially more skill, and I mean SUBSTANTIALLY to compete against your average Prototype Suit player in a MLT suit no skills. Why did half of the New Eden universe buy boosters and get prototype gear if 15 mill = 5 mill SP? Answer me that or the girl gets it!
Interplanetary Insanitarium Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 12	Posted - 2013.05.31 04:41:00 - [23] - Quote The general idea is great, but I don't think everything should be unlocked at first, maybe just a militia version of everything so people can get an idea of what they want to spec into. And I think they should put a cap on the total amount of SP you can gain so that no one can basically have a master class that can be a logi assault heavy at any whim. I don't know what an appropriate number would be, but nothing too limiting.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 183	Posted - 2013.05.31 05:34:00 - [24] - Quote I agree that the ISK loss of a proto suit should be heavier, but what will it solve? Big corps now will be big corps in the future and they get tens of millions every day from the selling of clones across multiple districts. The only people you hurt with making ISK loss huge are the people trying to stand a chance against other protos. As for the SP system, now that IS flawed. The best way to get SP is to have lots of GÇ£low buy inGÇ¥ skills. These would be skills that are easy to train but have a higher cost the further you progress them, similar to our current dropsuit situation. Example: AR proficiency adds +3% to AR damage. What if that was +2% to AR damage but had a 1x multiplier? Then we add a new slill called AR proficiency 2, which adds +1% with a 5x multiplier or something similar. I think this would fix a lot of SP related issues as new players could get the majority of an SP investment in a short time, but really have to work hard for the final 5%.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 712	Posted - 2013.05.31 07:43:00 - [25] - Quote RINON114 wrote: I agree that the ISK loss of a proto suit should be heavier, but what will it solve? Big corps now will be big corps in the future and they get tens of millions every day from the selling of clones across multiple districts. The only people you hurt with making ISK loss huge are the people trying to stand a chance against other protos. As for the SP system, now that IS flawed. The best way to get SP is to have lots of GÇ£low buy inGÇ¥ skills. These would be skills that are easy to train but have a higher cost the further you progress them, similar to our current dropsuit situation. Example: AR proficiency adds +3% to AR damage. What if that was +2% to AR damage but had a 1x multiplier? Then we add a new slill called AR proficiency 2, which adds +1% with a 5x multiplier or something similar. I think this would fix a lot of SP related issues as new players could get the majority of an SP investment in a short time, but really have to work hard for the final 5%. Yes, this is sort of how I envisaged skills to work. And as for prototype suits, the cost I imagine placed on them would be such that only PC battles provide enough return for prototype equipment to be used and still make profit between 5-10 deaths. Even if large corporations made millions, most of this would go back into PC for defending and attacking. The pure profit leftover for distribution between directors, important PC members and squad leaders/ground commanders would be so little that they'd keep it for their PC gear purchasing. The larger the corp gets, the more profit they make, but the more potential loss they also make. Not to mention more members = a smaller slice of the profit for everyone involved. When corporation taxing is introduced to DUST, I'm hoping that'll make the individual mercenary become even more careful with his/her wallet. This is crucial. When I say everything is unlocked, we cannot view that in the perspective of today's item prices. I'm talking massive prices for everything but militia, and possibly standard, gear. Like, an advanced dropsuit should have the cost of a prototype tank today. Something in that order, to balance the game when ISK transfer between EVE and DUST becomes possible.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 186	Posted - 2013.06.01 04:55:00 - [26] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: RINON114 wrote: I agree that the ISK loss of a proto suit should be heavier, but what will it solve? Big corps now will be big corps in the future and they get tens of millions every day from the selling of clones across multiple districts. The only people you hurt with making ISK loss huge are the people trying to stand a chance against other protos. As for the SP system, now that IS flawed. The best way to get SP is to have lots of GÇ£low buy inGÇ¥ skills. These would be skills that are easy to train but have a higher cost the further you progress them, similar to our current dropsuit situation. Example: AR proficiency adds +3% to AR damage. What if that was +2% to AR damage but had a 1x multiplier? Then we add a new slill called AR proficiency 2, which adds +1% with a 5x multiplier or something similar. I think this would fix a lot of SP related issues as new players could get the majority of an SP investment in a short time, but really have to work hard for the final 5%. Yes, this is sort of how I envisaged skills to work. And as for prototype suits, the cost I imagine placed on them would be such that only PC battles provide enough return for prototype equipment to be used and still make profit between 5-10 deaths. Even if large corporations made millions, most of this would go back into PC for defending and attacking. The pure profit leftover for distribution between directors, important PC members and squad leaders/ground commanders would be so little that they'd keep it for their PC gear purchasing. The larger the corp gets, the more profit they make, but the more potential loss they also make. Not to mention more members = a smaller slice of the profit for everyone involved. When corporation taxing is introduced to DUST, I'm hoping that'll make the individual mercenary become even more careful with his/her wallet. This is crucial. When I say everything is unlocked, we cannot view that in the perspective of today's item prices. I'm talking massive prices for everything but militia, and possibly standard, gear. Like, an advanced dropsuit should have the cost of a prototype tank today. Something in that order, to balance the game when ISK transfer between EVE and DUST becomes possible. The problem here is that the battle payout comes from gear lost, so with all the money people have or will have, proto gear will get fielded all the same. Protostomping will still happen but this time for the same reason people field proto tanks, because they only lose one every few matches.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:20:00 - [27] - Quote RINON114 wrote: The problem here is that the battle payout comes from gear lost, so with all the money people have or will have, proto gear will get fielded all the same. Protostomping will still happen but this time for the same reason people field proto tanks, because they only lose one every few matches. I was hoping that ISK payouts would be based on NPC contracts and WP accumulated in battle, not gear lost. If that isn't the case, then we'll have to change that too.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 186	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:52:00 - [28] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: RINON114 wrote: The problem here is that the battle payout comes from gear lost, so with all the money people have or will have, proto gear will get fielded all the same. Protostomping will still happen but this time for the same reason people field proto tanks, because they only lose one every few matches. I was hoping that ISK payouts would be based on NPC contracts and WP accumulated in battle, not gear lost. If that isn't the case, then we'll have to change that too. But now it's just changing the fundamentals of the game to suit what is a flawed viewpoint. We should work on changing the viewpoint to fit with the game in order to stand a better chance at getting changes to happen.
THE WOOKIE 72 Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 0	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:58:00 - [29] - Quote nah guys with militia ar's can kill my proto heavy with a descent amount of ease I disagree with youre point of view
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:35:00 - [30] - Quote RINON114 wrote: But now it's just changing the fundamentals of the game to suit what is a flawed viewpoint. We should work on changing the viewpoint to fit with the game in order to stand a better chance at getting changes to happen. What are the flaws? THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: nah guys with militia ar's can kill my proto heavy with a descent amount of ease I disagree with youre point of view This isn't a suggestion simply to reduce pubstomping. It's questioning whether or not the SP system will work in the long term, for a game like DUST.

Wojciak Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire 30	Posted - 2013.06.01 12:08:00 - [31] - Quote The biggest flaw that you idea has is that EVE and Dust will never be connected. IF you ideas is made real the Corps with the best way to make money will win every time, EVE will flood Dust with ISK and it will come down to whoever has more ISK will win. what we need is to make this a MMORPG and not cripple it by making it a FPS only.
Treablo James Howard WarRavens 21	Posted - 2013.06.01 12:13:00 - [32] - Quote Wojciak wrote: The biggest flaw that you idea has is that EVE and Dust will never be connected. IF you ideas is made real the Corps with the best way to make money will win every time, EVE will flood Dust with ISK and it will come down to whoever has more ISK will win. what we need is to make this a MMORPG and not cripple it by making it a FPS only. I think you're missing the point of Dust. We now affect a 10 year old game population. Where people could use certain skills to easily farm 500 million isk a month. We now are fighting over their planets that give them bonuses. Their "free" money is now in our hands. They'll have to take into consideration what corps may do now to invade systems. Dust is taking baby steps for what it can become. Just sit down and enjoy the uphill climb to what may be an awesome ride.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 13:13:00 - [33] - Quote Wojciak wrote: The biggest flaw that you idea has is that EVE and Dust will never be connected. IF you ideas is made real the Corps with the best way to make money will win every time, EVE will flood Dust with ISK and it will come down to whoever has more ISK will win. what we need is to make this a MMORPG and not cripple it by making it a FPS only. So you're saying if EVE floods DUST with ISK now, it won't have the same impact? I'm suggesting we make prices so damn high that EVE will HAVE to pour ISK into DUST for mercenaries to sustain their perpetual war. What does this mean? Even greater interconnectedness. Even more player interaction between games. DUST becomes another everhungry hole that EVE players constantly fill with ISK, but it never gets full. Why? Because ISK is all-important, is needed to purchase skill books and weapons and especially prototype gear. But EVE pilots aren't going to put their money on the people who don't know how to use their ISK, will they? Of course, whoever has the most ISK will win. That is never going to change. I'm for greater DUST/EVE integration, not against it, and this promotes integration.
Wojciak Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire 30	Posted - 2013.06.01 13:44:00 - [34] - Quote your idea is not bad for any other game, but it would cripple dust to be just a expansion of EVE not its own game. What we need are more Milt items, matchmaking, and MMO elements not a game overhaul.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 606	Posted - 2013.06.01 13:56:00 - [35] - Quote At the moment you use SP to unlock access to better items (weapons, suits, modules, etc.). That's not really much different from only having access to a single 'base' item of each type and increasing its efficacy like the OP suggests. Also, one of the reasons you see so many people running proto stuff constantly since uprising is that the whole game got flooded with ridiculous amounts of isk when we all got our salvage liquidated into hundreds of millions of isk. Okay, so this helped many corps fund their planetary conquest efforts but there are an enormous majority of players who never even tried to get into PC, so still have that 100million+ isk. This was a hugely foolish move for the general gameplay of Dust514 because there is nothing to spend masses of isk on if you don't do PC. Furthermore, the entire premise of the OP is that SP and the grind is all that is and will always be important in this game - this is not true. Ok, so it's true for now but that's because a lot of gameplay content isn't out yet. We don't need to change the SP/skill system; we need to give the general population more stuff to do and give meaning to playing beyond the grind. This is why I continue to push for PVE and try to convince people that more gameplay is the single most important addition this game needs (beyond the core FPS fixes that are also needed).
Lazarus Solo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 67	Posted - 2013.06.01 14:49:00 - [36] - Quote Something needs to be done about balance. I am good at FPS games, very good. I rank very highly on MAG and BF3, and I play those with blue dots, not elite clans. On DUST I have almost 4mil SP. I have to compete with proto people in PC battles with my advanced gear. Everyone has proto everything in my PC battles, but to say i'm just advanced, I do really well. This is because I have enough skill to overcome much of the SP disadvantage I have. I try not to brag, but most people aren't as good at FPS games as I am. I have genuine skill, and a lot of people don't. They rely on SP. For these players, starting new, they aren't going to stick around for long. Even if I was starting now, I don't think I would even stay. I would just go back to BF3, where the playing field is fair, and I can win. In BF3, you don't need to spend months working to increase the damage of your weapon, or to increase its accuracy. Everyone has the same options, it all comes down to your skill. This is not the case on DUST and it never will be, but the situation here can be improved. People want to win, they don't like to lose. So something needs to change. Personally I think you should be able to spend a little SP to get most of everything you need, and a lot to get a small advantage after that. Someone already pointed this out with AR proficiency, and the same should be applied to most other skills, if not all of them. This should make it much easier on newer players, and newer players is what you need.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 186	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:23:00 - [37] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: RINON114 wrote: But now it's just changing the fundamentals of the game to suit what is a flawed viewpoint. We should work on changing the viewpoint to fit with the game in order to stand a better chance at getting changes to happen. What are the flaws? THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: nah guys with militia ar's can kill my proto heavy with a descent amount of ease I disagree with youre point of view This isn't a suggestion simply to reduce pubstomping. It's questioning whether or not the SP system will work in the long term, for a game like DUST. The flaws are that you want to change something that will change several core aspects to how this game functions. If there were no flaws, there would be no discussion, no?


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