DUST Search - The Relationship between ISK, SP and Gameplay

RINON114 wrote:

I agree that the ISK loss of a proto suit should be heavier, but what will it solve? Big corps now will be big corps in the future and they get tens of millions every day from the selling of clones across multiple districts. The only people you hurt with making ISK loss huge are the people trying to stand a chance against other protos.

As for the SP system, now that IS flawed.

The best way to get SP is to have lots of GÇ£low buy inGÇ¥ skills. These would be skills that are easy to train but have a higher cost the further you progress them, similar to our current dropsuit situation.

Example: AR proficiency adds +3% to AR damage. What if that was +2% to AR damage but had a 1x multiplier? Then we add a new slill called AR proficiency 2, which adds +1% with a 5x multiplier or something similar. I think this would fix a lot of SP related issues as new players could get the majority of an SP investment in a short time, but really have to work hard for the final 5%.


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Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 704	Posted - 2013.05.30 09:56:00 - [1] - Quote Currently, the life of a new mercenary will begin as follows: Play lots of Academy games. Acquire ISK. Purchase skill books, and spend SP on skill books. Purchase new equipment which is now unlocked. Down the track, the life of the mercenary alters and starts looking like: 1. Purchase equipment. 2. Die. 3. Purchase more equipment. 4. Upgrade skills to get even better equipment. Here's the problem. How many years must past before players don't need to think about step 4? When all necessary skills are unlocked? In an FPS where people like to shoot other people, it quickly becomes frustrating when one person has an obscene advantage over another. SP, however, due to the system through which we gain it, cannot be moderated to allow new players to overcome the disadvantage they face when beginning the game years after our bitter old veterans have. In EVE, there are a plethora of other things available to new players in the true sandbox single-sharded universe other than PvP. In DUST? The forum threads are my evidence. We want smoother frame rates, better hit detection, balanced gunplay, enjoyable battles, more modes, bigger maps, variations of maps. What does this all point towards? The core of a great FPS! And make no mistake, this is what DUST will be. Turning it into a more in-depth Ratchet and Clank game where players battle through waves of mobs is NOT where CCP wants to go with DUST. If that were so, we'd already have PvE and PvP wouldn't be such a predominant focus. So, back to the problem of SP. If the game's true nature is to be a 'AAA' FPS, then we simply cannot retain the current SP system. How the SP system should change Firstly, the significance of SP is that players can choose to specialise into a role on the battlefield, or not. It is the aspect of customisation which is so wonderful and unique to New Eden, thrown into an FPS. And that's the thing. It hasn't seemed to be built around DUST as an FPS, it's built around making it fit into EVE and New Eden. That's where things have to change. The acquisition of SP is fine. The combination of passive/active SP is perfect. What should change is how SP applies to skills and unlocking equipment. All items should be unlocked initially. Yeah, you read it right. Skills SHOULD NOT determine usage of weapons, vehicles, modules. What should they affect? Efficacy. All skills should provide passive bonuses. That should be their only function. However, make skills even more specific than we have them now. Each item should have its own skills which gives it passive bonuses. There should be different skills for each variant of equipment or weapon. Highlight an item's purpose on the battlefield through the bonuses its own specific skill provides it with. How ISK will complement this change to SP ISK. We are MERCENARIES, ladies and gentlemen! This should be the word which resonates with our souls and makes us salivate. But currently it isn't. If CCP currently offered us a choice of 2x SP for a week or 4x ISK for 5 weeks, which would you pick? I'd go SP, and you would too. But wait, why? Because deep down, we know there is a finite amount of SP a player needs in DUST, and if this game persists for another year or two, we'll find that amount. 50 million? 100 million? Whatever it is, past a certain point a DUST player will only be spending ISK. There is a finish line in sight and once we reach it, essentially we 'win' the game. This means more pain for new players who have to play us once they're released from the comfort of the battle academy. This is not how it should work. Which is why ISK must be the moderating factor for balance. Firstly, the market was also intended to be merged into EVE's. So lets use a dummy variable for now. X = the % increase to current item prices to ensure ISK flow between the two games will be balanced. Hopefully, CCP knows or is in the process of calculating exactly what our X% is. But that's irrelevant currently. All we must understand currently is that when prices do increase by X%, so too will battle payouts. So my proposal: Make advanced gear cost 10x more than standard gear, and prototype gear should cost AT LEAST 10x more than advanced gear. This includes equipment, vehicles, modules, etc. i.e. If an advanced dropsuit costs 8000 now, with my suggestion it should cost 8000 x 10 x (X%). A player must FEAR using prototype, even advanced equipment, because of the ISK cost. Payouts in instant battles should never cover the cost of the loss of even one prototype suit. TL;DR: In conclusion: ISK should be what SP is now. Currently, you don't lose SP when you die. What do you lose? ISK. Your total earned ISK is always fluctuating, but SP never goes down; it always increases. And as it is now, a mercenary's SP will eventually reach a point where it isn't needed anymore, where all gear is unlocked, and ISK is all we need to worry about. So why not just CUT TO THE GODDAMN CHASE, and give all players all equipment, unlocked? Skills provide bonuses based on the item's purpose, and that is all. They unlock nothing; there should be no item prerequisites. Except one requirement. ISK. EVERYTHING should be bloody expensive, even skill books. Only in PC battles should payouts be greater than the investment into prototype suits even after dying numerous times. In all other cases, players should PREFER to run militia gear because they need ISK, which they not only need to spend once to acquire a weapon, but dozens of times; once per death with that item. This will allow DUST to persevere. Or else we can wait a year or two, and when we realise the limitations of the current SP system, I'll probably be around to say "I told you so.".
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 706	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:31:00 - [2] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: This game might not be fore you. There isn't an 'obscene' advantage to be had after investing a bit of time in the game. 5 mil, specialized sp, can compete just fine with 10-15 mil. Things curve very hard towards the upper end of skills. I quite enjoy the need to play to build up sp to unlock new things. Giving me something to work for so I can't see everything there is to do in a month and be done with the game. Progression is what Dust is about, you take that away and you might as well play a different game. Okay, I let myself get carried away and my main point was contradicted a little. Ignore the rambling introduction, I'll delete it later if I have to, and focus on my proposals. You enjoy building up SP to unlock new things? Good. Now, you keep building up SP. Lets say for... 5 years? CCP projected DUST a decade into the future. I'm looking with them towards that vision, and with this system, you'll find there won't be anything to work for in a couple of years, let alone 10.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 706	Posted - 2013.05.30 11:36:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: SP isn't an "I win button." You'll never see buleberry (10,000,00 SP) redberry on the kill feed. What SP does, is let you customize your character more than the 4 starter BPO kits we all start with. You're talking about changing the entire way the game is set up. Sure there are flaws with this system, but it needs a tweak, not a full overhaul. I never said SP was a 'win' button. I'm saying this SP system won't last long enough; I apologise if I didn't make that clear. Tweaks? What possible tweaks do you suggest? Twiddle with the multipliers? Fiddle with the passive bonuses? In a few years, we'd have to make countless 'tweaks' to account for the fact that there simply is not enough flexibility in this SP system to allow new players to assimilate into the game a year from now and become competent before they become annoyed, frustrated, bored, or a combination of those three and others. And these countless tweaks may as well be a complete overhaul now. Basic customisation is provided by the SP system, but is also currently limited by it.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 709	Posted - 2013.05.30 13:34:00 - [4] - Quote KING ZUMA wrote: but then you will have so little to skill for Yes, and no. With a skill system where there are unique skills for each and every item, right now there'd only be reason to upgrade certain skills for items you use most of the time. Fairly similar to what's happening now. However, throw ISK into the mixture, with ISK being a commodity that has much more value than what it does in DUST now, and now skills become rarely tapped into. People begin to think "Why spend ISK on skills?", and once that mentality is established, then skills become a truly persistent, progressive part of the game. Skills need to take a back seat, because they lead to burnouts or boredom otherwise. This is opposed to the current system, where skill book ISK prices are so low a player should be comfortable purchasing them within a week of play. One-time purchase to unlock cheap items. I am proposing a one-time purchase to provide bonuses to expensive items.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.05.31 04:09:00 - [5] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: Part of the problem here is that you see this game as IT. That there isn't anymore to be had, to add, to do. If you are looking 5-10 years down the road, then you'd see 50-60 new skills, 30 or so new dropsuits, 100 or more new weapons, tons of planets for the taking, and any amount of additional content CCP already has on the drawing board. And just for the record, most of the content here is already unlocked. It's called militia gear. If you decide you like using it, skill it up and unlock better versions of it. I'm satisfied with the current SP system in place, because of what it offers me now, and because I know what it'll be in 5+ years. I do agree about prototype level equipment though. It should be very expensive, and you should feel each and every loss. On the contrary, I see the game as not even close to finished. Look at Uprising. The skill system became a much bigger SP sink compared to Chromosome to compensate for the fact that CCP only released a handful of new content after half a year. This is going to become a cycle where the SP system is adjusted to prevent veterans from unlocking everything, whilst new players are forced further and further behind. Why? Because CCP explicitly stated that they saw DUST lasting for a decade! Lets say there are 50-60 new skills in a couple of years. For simplicity's sake, lets say they all have 5x multipliers. That's roughly 1.5 million SP to max one skill. So in total, we have enough for a single player to invest 75 million SP into. In a year, average players earn 300k x 50 = 15 million SP, and that's assuming you earn 32k SP from active SP per week. Now, in 5 years, that's, interestingly enough, 75 million SP. So, 10 new skills a year, and players should be able to match the SP investment even if they're earning what I consider to be the bare minimum of active SP. Either we keep increasing the sinkhole and grindfest of SP, or make the grinding ISK-centric. When players start grinding for ISK, we will see the solution to not only keeping DUST alive in the long term, but also to problems such as protostomping. If gear costs are massive, no one wants to lose that in an instant battle. But it's there and it's unlocked. It's just not simply purchaseable. > More discussion, please. This is only the first thread; a revised edition will most likely be posted after further contemplation and critique is taken into account. I'm adamant about this.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 712	Posted - 2013.05.31 07:43:00 - [6] - Quote RINON114 wrote: I agree that the ISK loss of a proto suit should be heavier, but what will it solve? Big corps now will be big corps in the future and they get tens of millions every day from the selling of clones across multiple districts. The only people you hurt with making ISK loss huge are the people trying to stand a chance against other protos. As for the SP system, now that IS flawed. The best way to get SP is to have lots of GÇ£low buy inGÇ¥ skills. These would be skills that are easy to train but have a higher cost the further you progress them, similar to our current dropsuit situation. Example: AR proficiency adds +3% to AR damage. What if that was +2% to AR damage but had a 1x multiplier? Then we add a new slill called AR proficiency 2, which adds +1% with a 5x multiplier or something similar. I think this would fix a lot of SP related issues as new players could get the majority of an SP investment in a short time, but really have to work hard for the final 5%. Yes, this is sort of how I envisaged skills to work. And as for prototype suits, the cost I imagine placed on them would be such that only PC battles provide enough return for prototype equipment to be used and still make profit between 5-10 deaths. Even if large corporations made millions, most of this would go back into PC for defending and attacking. The pure profit leftover for distribution between directors, important PC members and squad leaders/ground commanders would be so little that they'd keep it for their PC gear purchasing. The larger the corp gets, the more profit they make, but the more potential loss they also make. Not to mention more members = a smaller slice of the profit for everyone involved. When corporation taxing is introduced to DUST, I'm hoping that'll make the individual mercenary become even more careful with his/her wallet. This is crucial. When I say everything is unlocked, we cannot view that in the perspective of today's item prices. I'm talking massive prices for everything but militia, and possibly standard, gear. Like, an advanced dropsuit should have the cost of a prototype tank today. Something in that order, to balance the game when ISK transfer between EVE and DUST becomes possible.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 08:20:00 - [7] - Quote RINON114 wrote: The problem here is that the battle payout comes from gear lost, so with all the money people have or will have, proto gear will get fielded all the same. Protostomping will still happen but this time for the same reason people field proto tanks, because they only lose one every few matches. I was hoping that ISK payouts would be based on NPC contracts and WP accumulated in battle, not gear lost. If that isn't the case, then we'll have to change that too.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:35:00 - [8] - Quote RINON114 wrote: But now it's just changing the fundamentals of the game to suit what is a flawed viewpoint. We should work on changing the viewpoint to fit with the game in order to stand a better chance at getting changes to happen. What are the flaws? THE WOOKIE 72 wrote: nah guys with militia ar's can kill my proto heavy with a descent amount of ease I disagree with youre point of view This isn't a suggestion simply to reduce pubstomping. It's questioning whether or not the SP system will work in the long term, for a game like DUST.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 716	Posted - 2013.06.01 13:13:00 - [9] - Quote Wojciak wrote: The biggest flaw that you idea has is that EVE and Dust will never be connected. IF you ideas is made real the Corps with the best way to make money will win every time, EVE will flood Dust with ISK and it will come down to whoever has more ISK will win. what we need is to make this a MMORPG and not cripple it by making it a FPS only. So you're saying if EVE floods DUST with ISK now, it won't have the same impact? I'm suggesting we make prices so damn high that EVE will HAVE to pour ISK into DUST for mercenaries to sustain their perpetual war. What does this mean? Even greater interconnectedness. Even more player interaction between games. DUST becomes another everhungry hole that EVE players constantly fill with ISK, but it never gets full. Why? Because ISK is all-important, is needed to purchase skill books and weapons and especially prototype gear. But EVE pilots aren't going to put their money on the people who don't know how to use their ISK, will they? Of course, whoever has the most ISK will win. That is never going to change. I'm for greater DUST/EVE integration, not against it, and this promotes integration.