DUST Search - LAVs, Tank whiners and AV in general.

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Bones McGavins wrote:

More and more I read about people who specced into vehicles whining about various things. Recently its this bogus claim that they are using LAVs to hit players because their vehicle skills are useless. All of this is BS, but it made me think about DUST as a game, and how AV just isnt very fun.

The main problem with vehicle/AV balance is the fact that it is not fun to be in a position where you can not reasonably expect to even damage the enemy unit. This is also why snipers are annoying. Nobody enjoys losing a fight they had zero chance of winning. Even a slimmer of hope is enough. A scout turning a corner and seeing a HMG in his face, he can TRY to dance and fire his SMG and maybe bring the heavy down. Will he? probably not, but its not a bad player experience to lose that lopsided fight.

But to see an LAV or an HAV and know "hey, my current load out makes it really impossible to do anything against this unit" is boring.

So why not spec into AV? Well, because that simply makes the problem even worse. Now, instead of having a feeling of "my loadout is useless against this one unit" you feel "well my loadout is useless against everyone except this one unit, which I still need help to destroy."

Forge guns are less of an issue with this, because they at least can fight infantry. But with Heavy suits being so situational and vulnerable, it isnt realistic to expect players to use it.

CCP needs to look at Battlefield and their balance or Halo and their balance. In battlefield the AV unit is provided with a good means of dealing with anti infantry. He does not feel overly gimped in an infantry combat. In DUST, side arm weapons are decent in situations, but you really are very limited.

Halo goes the other way, for most vehicals, the primary gun on most players can do damage. Banshees and ghosts can be brought down quickly by concentraited small arms fire. This means players dont feel useless against a vehicle they jsut need to coordinate.

It comes down to this, right now vehicles are treated mainly as an intrusion on a seperate game. There isnt really a balanced interaction between infantry and vehicles. It doesnt feel like an integrated game balanced for the two play styles to interact. It feels like vehicles sit on top of infantry gameplay, and if you want to interact with them you have to step out of infantry gameplay and go play with the tanks.

TLDR:

If you want stronger tanks, AV builds either needs to be better against infantry or infantry builds need to be somewhat effective against tanks. The all or nothing of DUSTs AV makes it boring.

What part of prototype AV versus standard tanks eludes you? I see AV grenades doing 3200 damage and up when I get destroyed by them.

You consider camping a nanohive with AV grenades to be legitimate AV, don't you?

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Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 254	Posted - 2013.05.24 19:52:00 - [31] - Quote Quote: i'm done with u. 1 u have no idea wat u r talking about and 2 if u can't hit a tank with av nades then u suck in genera If only HAV were as easy to beat as you are :) Quote: If you want your friends to help you with AV, get them to drop the what? 40k sp to get a standard swarm launcher and put together a fit for it. Again, you guys are ignoring the point. AV isnt fun. NOBODY WANTS to use AV. Its not that they arent capable. Its that its boring so "let someone else deal with it." If the entire team spawned swarms as soon as a tank as on the field, HAV would be dead instantly. So why doesnt that happen? Because nobody wants to, its not a fun thing to do. The point is an attempt to make AV versus HAV fun and vice versa. Right now, in this very thread, HAV have pretty much conceeded the dont play the game to fight AV, they play it to kill people who cant fight back and hope nobody uses AV. This thread isnt a balance thread, its a fun game thread. Regardless of balance, the relationship between HAV, infantry and AV isnt fun right now. Tanks whine and complain about AV op. Infantry whine and complain about tank OP and nobody really even uses AV because its boring. That's not the formula for a good, fun game.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 879	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:05:00 - [32] - Quote encourage forge guns. They are fun. And challenging. but most importantly fun.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 255	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:12:00 - [33] - Quote Yeah. I am actually trying to convince my friends to at least spec into forge AV. But not really for fun, so so we can all bust out forge guns and collectively 2-3 shot most HAVs and be able to move onto more fun things. Itd also be interesting to 2-3 shot splash damage most infantry while we are at it :)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 879	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:15:00 - [34] - Quote seeing tanks blow up is fun. making tankers **** themselves and think OMGMUSTSAVEMAITANK is fun There's nothing bad about blowing up tanks, causing dropships to crash and splashing LAVs with a forge gun. it's kinda like having a lesser finger of God.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 255	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:24:00 - [35] - Quote The result is a good feeling yes. But that doesnt mean the act is. It becomes frustrating when the tank has good squad support and you dont. Like, I LOVE dropping orbitals on tanks to kill them. I once nailed 2 with one orbital. The experience was overall awesome, but was the actual "gameplay" of going into a menu and clicking a button over two red squares actually solid gameplay I could recommend?
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1785	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:30:00 - [36] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: The result is a good feeling yes. But that doesnt mean the act is. Like, I LOVE dropping orbitals on tanks to kill them. I once nailed 2 with one orbital. The experience was overall awesome, but was the actual "gameplay" of going into a menu and clicking a button over two red squares actually solid gameplay I could recommend? Would you not agree that shooting someone is not in itself a fun act? But killing them before they kill you is? Because the same thing applies to vehicles vs AV, it's just the time taken is generally longer (except where proto AV is involved, then vehicles are better off hiding or being recalled.) As annoying as I find them, I do enjoy competing against AV users (as long as they aren't proto AV, or breach and assault forge guns) because it means I have to think several steps ahead and really push myself to avoid their fire while doing my job.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 489	Posted - 2013.05.24 21:08:00 - [37] - Quote halo has 3 "av weapons" the rocket launcher, not homing, the Spartan laser, short spool with a heat thing I believe, and fuel rod gun, arcing multi shot per clip-good. all are good vs people and only good vs vehicle because it has high damage dust- swarm laucher, homing, forge gun, long spool no heat, plasma cannon, single round arcing shoot. meant to damage vehicle because all other weapons take a penalty when shoting vehicles so halo AV all dumbfire and meant to be effective dual usefulness dust meant to actually be used on vehicles with limits on infantry i'll going into why in a second. halo- tanks can shoot the driver out of the tank and can be thrown out and have no cost to any player and all set hp/fitting. dust- custom fitting that the driver can not be shot out of and need 2 other people to control other turrets. halo- flying vehicles- bashee= fighter so no able to compare duh. the other is basically the dropships but once again to no cost to the player dust-flying vehicles- DS LDS ADS. custom fittings that cost the players to call in. so in halo all the vehicles are free to who ever getting inside them first and have no way on repairing them and have infantry the ability to kill/steal without the need to have av by ingame mechanics.so AV=not needed to beat any vehicle because they are free and easy to counter dust cost ingame money and are made and fitted by the players and takes skill to use and thus it takes skills AV weapons the cost the player and fit and overcome another players choice and in game tactics. so until the whole skill tree and fitting goes away HTFU and don't compare Dust to Halo when they don't make sense.
CharCharOdell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz 201	Posted - 2013.05.24 21:18:00 - [38] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: lol infantry needs to be effective against tanks lol he wants a proto TAC AR to take down a madrugar in a clip lolno lol
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 256	Posted - 2013.05.24 21:51:00 - [39] - Quote ladwar wrote: halo has 3 "av weapons" the rocket launcher, not homing, the Spartan laser, short spool with a heat thing I believe, and fuel rod gun, arcing multi shot per clip-good. all are good vs people and only good vs vehicle because it has high damage dust- swarm laucher, homing, forge gun, long spool no heat, plasma cannon, single round arcing shoot. meant to damage vehicle because all other weapons take a penalty when shoting vehicles so halo AV all dumbfire and meant to be effective dual usefulness dust meant to actually be used on vehicles with limits on infantry i'll going into why in a second. halo- tanks can shoot the driver out of the tank and can be thrown out and have no cost to any player and all set hp/fitting. dust- custom fitting that the driver can not be shot out of and need 2 other people to control other turrets. halo- flying vehicles- bashee= fighter so no able to compare duh. the other is basically the dropships but once again to no cost to the player dust-flying vehicles- DS LDS ADS. custom fittings that cost the players to call in. so in halo all the vehicles are free to who ever getting inside them first and have no way on repairing them and have infantry the ability to kill/steal without the need to have av by ingame mechanics.so AV=not needed to beat any vehicle because they are free and easy to counter and the driver takes damage from small arms fire even if the only hit the vehicle so you can kill the driver before the vehicle by only shooting the vehicle. dust cost ingame money and are made and fitted by the players and takes skill to use and thus it takes skills AV weapons the cost the player and fit and overcome another players choice and in game tactics. so until the whole skill tree and fitting goes away HTFU and don't compare Dust to Halo when they don't make sense. The only important comparison is AV isn't tedious and boringin halo and it is in dust
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 884	Posted - 2013.05.25 07:38:00 - [40] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: The only important comparison is AV isn't tedious and boringin halo and it is in dust the only Important comparison is # of players who want DUST to be a HALO clone and the # of players who do not. The second group outnumbers the rest of you.

ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 494	Posted - 2013.05.25 07:42:00 - [41] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: The only important comparison is AV isn't tedious and boring in halo and it is in dust then your doing it wrong which is your fault not the games.
Quirky CatchPhrase The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 5	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:02:00 - [42] - Quote shh no one mention Proximity traps ..... in no way should people spec into explosives, five prox-ex in a pile on the road is just stupid daft ... and don't bother with those AV nades... the combination doesnt scare anyone in the least :P
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:07:00 - [43] - Quote Remember when I told you that they will want a clip of AR to kill tanks, here they want it. That is the last step since anyone who is intelligent enough knows that AV is OP as fack. Original Poster, go play halo do all of us a favor.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:15:00 - [44] - Quote Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:17:00 - [45] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: More and more I read about people who specced into vehicles whining about various things. Recently its this bogus claim that they are using LAVs to hit players because their vehicle skills are useless. All of this is BS, but it made me think about DUST as a game, and how AV just isnt very fun. The main problem with vehicle/AV balance is the fact that it is not fun to be in a position where you can not reasonably expect to even damage the enemy unit. This is also why snipers are annoying. Nobody enjoys losing a fight they had zero chance of winning. Even a slimmer of hope is enough. A scout turning a corner and seeing a HMG in his face, he can TRY to dance and fire his SMG and maybe bring the heavy down. Will he? probably not, but its not a bad player experience to lose that lopsided fight. But to see an LAV or an HAV and know "hey, my current load out makes it really impossible to do anything against this unit" is boring. So why not spec into AV? Well, because that simply makes the problem even worse. Now, instead of having a feeling of "my loadout is useless against this one unit" you feel "well my loadout is useless against everyone except this one unit, which I still need help to destroy." Forge guns are less of an issue with this, because they at least can fight infantry. But with Heavy suits being so situational and vulnerable, it isnt realistic to expect players to use it. CCP needs to look at Battlefield and their balance or Halo and their balance. In battlefield the AV unit is provided with a good means of dealing with anti infantry. He does not feel overly gimped in an infantry combat. In DUST, side arm weapons are decent in situations, but you really are very limited. Halo goes the other way, for most vehicals, the primary gun on most players can do damage. Banshees and ghosts can be brought down quickly by concentraited small arms fire. This means players dont feel useless against a vehicle they jsut need to coordinate. It comes down to this, right now vehicles are treated mainly as an intrusion on a seperate game. There isnt really a balanced interaction between infantry and vehicles. It doesnt feel like an integrated game balanced for the two play styles to interact. It feels like vehicles sit on top of infantry gameplay, and if you want to interact with them you have to step out of infantry gameplay and go play with the tanks. TLDR: If you want stronger tanks, AV builds either needs to be better against infantry or infantry builds need to be somewhat effective against tanks. The all or nothing of DUSTs AV makes it boring. What part of prototype AV versus standard tanks eludes you? I see AV grenades doing 3200 damage and up when I get destroyed by them. You consider camping a nanohive with AV grenades to be legitimate AV, don't you? You do realize that the damage dealt shown in your killfeed is their TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THE MATCH, right?
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:21:00 - [46] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. It does't take an entire team, you are just a loser. It takes 1 guy with AV grenades to kill.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 887	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:23:00 - [47] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. I have proven over an over it only takes one dedicated AV player to neutralize an HAV on the field, either through destruction or forcing it to retreat constantly for fear of destruction. it's not even difficult if making a tank a mere nonfactor by retreat is your main goal. That's the low-hanging fruit of AV. Destruction of HAVs is significantly harder. People who barf out poorly-formulated arguments about AV being insufficient do so having never explored actually going past basic swarms and militia forge guns. I assure you that Advanced AV with advanced damage mods appears to be up to the taks of clocking most HAVs. prototype weapons will decimate anyone who decides to do things most HAV drivers consider stupid. There is no "40% of a team has to do AV." All it takes is one dedicated heavy, or a dedicated swarm jockey. Tank can be made a nonfactor. it's just challenging to do it with one person. And no, shooting the HAV with a squad of assault rifles to kill it is stupid. I challenge you to use small arms to destroy a vietnam era M-60 tank. It doesn't work. i don't think in the future the tactic will work any better.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:26:00 - [48] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. It does't take an entire team, you are just a loser. It takes 1 guy with AV grenades to kill. Well stop being an idiot and getting close enough for AV Grenades to hit you, if you're close enough for an 8 meter track to hit you maybe you deserve to lose the tank.
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:28:00 - [49] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. It does't take an entire team, you are just a loser. It takes 1 guy with AV grenades to kill. Well stop being an idiot and getting close enough for AV Grenades to hit you, if you're close enough for an 8 meter track to hit you maybe you deserve to lose the tank. Are you mentally challenged? You said it takes 6 or 4 guys to kill tanks and now you are telling me don't get close. Must be hard to live with that brain.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:29:00 - [50] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. I have proven over an over it only takes one dedicated AV player to neutralize an HAV on the field, either through destruction or forcing it to retreat constantly for fear of destruction. it's not even difficult if making a tank a mere nonfactor by retreat is your main goal. That's the low-hanging fruit of AV. Destruction of HAVs is significantly harder. People who barf out poorly-formulated arguments about AV being insufficient do so having never explored actually going past basic swarms and militia forge guns. I assure you that Advanced AV with advanced damage mods appears to be up to the taks of clocking most HAVs. prototype weapons will decimate anyone who decides to do things most HAV drivers consider stupid. There is no "40% of a team has to do AV." All it takes is one dedicated heavy, or a dedicated swarm jockey. Tank can be made a nonfactor. it's just challenging to do it with one person. And no, shooting the HAV with a squad of assault rifles to kill it is stupid. I challenge you to use small arms to destroy a vietnam era M-60 tank. It doesn't work. i don't think in the future the tactic will work any better. Assuming that was true (which it really isn't) than we wouldn't be having this resounding issue with LAVs running rampant all over the place. Also, assuming that it was true (which it isn't!), I'd say it's fairly balanced. Both have equally destructive powers and you CANNOT tell me that an HAV doesn't have potential to kill whatever is firing at it. If it takes ONE AV PLAYER to disrupt ONE HAV DRIVER than it's perfectly balanced - otherwise that one HAV driver is setting his entire team up for victory against an outmatched team who all had to switch roles to deal with one guy.

Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:30:00 - [51] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. It does't take an entire team, you are just a loser. It takes 1 guy with AV grenades to kill. Well stop being an idiot and getting close enough for AV Grenades to hit you, if you're close enough for an 8 meter track to hit you maybe you deserve to lose the tank. Are you mentally challenged? You said it takes 6 or 4 guys to kill tanks and now you are telling me don't get close. Must be hard to live with that brain. Just using your logic against you. Your argument is that the AV is overpowered because of the Grenades, so I'm telling you not to get close and you won't have a problem.
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:32:00 - [52] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: BOZ MR wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much defines how I feel about the situation. I think it's absolute BS that a single tank has to force an entire squad to go AV just to deal with it, sacrificing 40%+ of the entire team's effectiveness because they suddenly don't stand a chance against the 15 other guys who are running infantry. When a Tank requires an entire squad to operate, I'll accept it taking an entire squad of AV to kill. It does't take an entire team, you are just a loser. It takes 1 guy with AV grenades to kill. Well stop being an idiot and getting close enough for AV Grenades to hit you, if you're close enough for an 8 meter track to hit you maybe you deserve to lose the tank. Are you mentally challenged? You said it takes 6 or 4 guys to kill tanks and now you are telling me don't get close. Must be hard to live with that brain. Just using your logic against you. Your argument is that the AV is overpowered because of the Grenades, so I'm telling you not to get close and you won't have a problem. Must be hard winning arguments with that brain. Yeah you are mentally challenged.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1374	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:33:00 - [53] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: Yeah you are mentally challenged. If you have another argument as to why AV is imbalanced, I'll gladly hear it. Otherwise, try using Railguns as they seem to work just fine for everyone else.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet 887	Posted - 2013.05.25 09:43:00 - [54] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Assuming that was true (which it really isn't) than we wouldn't be having this resounding issue with LAVs running rampant all over the place. Also, assuming that it was true (which it isn't!), I'd say it's fairly balanced. Both have equally destructive powers and you CANNOT tell me that an HAV doesn't have potential to kill whatever is firing at it. If it takes ONE AV PLAYER to disrupt ONE HAV DRIVER than it's perfectly balanced - otherwise that one HAV driver is setting his entire team up for victory against an outmatched team who all had to switch roles to deal with one guy. Did I say anything about LAVs? No I didn't. i think the beefed-up freefit LAVs are ********. You have to have a protoforge with complex mods to gank them. or a good breach. and I disrupt HAV players all the time all by myself. HOW? I play heavy and use an assault forge gun. I can bombard a tank four times in under ten seconds if the driver isn't paying attention. My favorite thing is to make them panic and overheat their blasters or rails. then they're dead meat unless they run. DAU/somedumbdesignator assault forge gun kills militia tanks in a few shots. Gunnlogi/Madrugar i can drive away in three, maybe four shots so they have to go repair. Idiots who drive a gunnlogi or madrugar and don't tank up properly die in 3 shots, or on the fifth one when i reload. All with a militia damage mod in my high slot. So yeah, whine some more. you want the vehicles off the board? Either spec into good AV weapons or encourage a buddy or three to do it. AV is priceless in corp battles. keeps the goddamned tanks busy and panicking. And ignore BOZ MR, he gets butthurt when someone suggests that tanks should be destructible by anything carried by infantry.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.05.25 10:59:00 - [55] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: More and more I read about people who specced into vehicles whining about various things. Recently its this bogus claim that they are using LAVs to hit players because their vehicle skills are useless. All of this is BS, but it made me think about DUST as a game, and how AV just isnt very fun. The main problem with vehicle/AV balance is the fact that it is not fun to be in a position where you can not reasonably expect to even damage the enemy unit. This is also why snipers are annoying. Nobody enjoys losing a fight they had zero chance of winning. Even a slimmer of hope is enough. A scout turning a corner and seeing a HMG in his face, he can TRY to dance and fire his SMG and maybe bring the heavy down. Will he? probably not, but its not a bad player experience to lose that lopsided fight. But to see an LAV or an HAV and know "hey, my current load out makes it really impossible to do anything against this unit" is boring. So why not spec into AV? Well, because that simply makes the problem even worse. Now, instead of having a feeling of "my loadout is useless against this one unit" you feel "well my loadout is useless against everyone except this one unit, which I still need help to destroy." Forge guns are less of an issue with this, because they at least can fight infantry. But with Heavy suits being so situational and vulnerable, it isnt realistic to expect players to use it. CCP needs to look at Battlefield and their balance or Halo and their balance. In battlefield the AV unit is provided with a good means of dealing with anti infantry. He does not feel overly gimped in an infantry combat. In DUST, side arm weapons are decent in situations, but you really are very limited. Halo goes the other way, for most vehicals, the primary gun on most players can do damage. Banshees and ghosts can be brought down quickly by concentraited small arms fire. This means players dont feel useless against a vehicle they jsut need to coordinate. It comes down to this, right now vehicles are treated mainly as an intrusion on a seperate game. There isnt really a balanced interaction between infantry and vehicles. It doesnt feel like an integrated game balanced for the two play styles to interact. It feels like vehicles sit on top of infantry gameplay, and if you want to interact with them you have to step out of infantry gameplay and go play with the tanks. TLDR: If you want stronger tanks, AV builds either needs to be better against infantry or infantry builds need to be somewhat effective against tanks. The all or nothing of DUSTs AV makes it boring. Proto assault. Proto Tac AR. Highest tier Shield/armor modules. This unit is now an infantry killing MACHINE. He is 100% effective against every single infantry on the field. Throw on an advanced packed AV grenade. This same unit that is 100% viable against infantry is now 100% viable against land based vehicles. Three in an LAV pull up next to a tank and pop it with ease. One standing on a nanohive with the tank in a poor spot can pop a tank with ease. Two in an LAV next to a tank and have a really good chance of popping the tank. People that ***** about this kinda thing are so stupid. You have the means to do it, you just don't want to waste 300k SP that isn't helping you kill infantry.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 542	Posted - 2013.05.25 11:49:00 - [56] - Quote Basically he wants infantry to do everything on one fit He complaining that HAVs can run around and kill ppl and other tanks so why cant infantry do the same? well currently AV nades on infantry guy and he can Lets look at the AV Forge gun - not lock on and requires aim, same as a railgun and can take out infantry and vehicles but only used on heavy suit Swarms - lock on and can only take out vehicles, but you have a sidearm slot so you can at least defend yourself from infantry, light weapon Plasma launcher - dumb fire and can kil infantry and vehicles, once again light weapon so sidearm slot to defend yourself AV nades - nade slot can put onto any dropsuit you can at least damage a vehicle to completely destroy one with AV nades As i see it AV have it easy, you have proto AV vs basic vehicles, you have the swarm launcher which is fire and forget, you dont even have to keep it locked on, you have FG do more damage than a railgun, AV nades auto home in on a vehicle so you can never miss DUST is about specializations and infantry generally cannot do everything due to limitations with the suit because if they could everyone would just go AV and vehicles would be killed off even more than now Also its lazyness, infantry players dont want to spec into AV, they want the ability to do everything but wont skill into it As for vehicles we sorta can do a bit of both but it all depends on your turret, railgun great against tanks but crap against infantry unless you get a direct hit since no splash, blasters good against infantry and vehicles but only if in range But AV vs vehicles the FG/SL have great range espc if against a blaster, railgun can fight back but you have to get a direct hit and if you get into CQC range AV nades just home in As it is AV holds all the cards already and we need advanced and proto vehicles
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 339	Posted - 2013.05.25 12:26:00 - [57] - Quote I actually kind of agree with Bones, in the vehicle vs infantry needs to work drastically differently than the way it does now. I don't really like his suggestion, which basically amounts to "I don't want to need AV to kill HAVs". I think this old post of mine presents a better option.


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