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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
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Posted - 2013.05.27 12:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:While balancing needs to be an on-going effort, some issues can't be fixed by balancing. A standard tank won't be able to go against proto forge EVER. It shouldn't.
I'd argue that most would agree with you, and so do I. That would be a properly balanced tank and FG. I'm not sure what you are trying to convey with that example.
Quote:HMG lacking range isn't the problem. It's that a heavy have no heavy mid(or long) range anti-infantry weapon. These things need to be fixed by adding new stuffs, not messing with existed one.
Balancing and adding new stuff are not mutually exclusive; you can do both.
Dust's stated objective is a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. When Dust is properly balanced, TAR would not be the be-all end-all weapon it is right now, but just another weapon among many. In a properly balanced game there can be weapons which are superior at one application but vastly inferior at others - sniper rifle and nova knives being prime examples.
Quote:I do believe that my suggestion is another bare minimum requirement for this game. It's called frigging basic suit for a reason. It's also way more easy to solve than eliminate lag and FPS issue. This mean it can be finished in a definite timeline, thus a more realistic roadmap. I don't think CCP released EVE with only Galante/Minmatar frigate and Amarr battleship, did they ? (If this is the case just tell me I will shut up at once ^^")
I agree that it would have been ideal to have a full suite of suits and weapons and vehicles available at launch. I also feel we should have launched with robust FPS mechanics in place.
But we are stuck with what we have, not what should be. What we have is that we lack both full set of racial gear and solid FPS mechanics. And choosing between those two, FPS mechanics must take precedence. |
Talruum Tezztarozza
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
132
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Posted - 2013.05.27 13:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:I'd argue that most would agree with you, and so do I. That would be a properly balanced tank and FG. I'm not sure what you are trying to convey with that example.
Balancing and adding new stuff are not mutually exclusive; you can do both.
Dust's stated objective is a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. When Dust is properly balanced, TAR would not be the be-all end-all weapon it is right now, but just another weapon among many. In a properly balanced game there can be weapons which are superior at one application but vastly inferior at others - sniper rifle and nova knives being prime examples.
I agree that it would have been ideal to have a full suite of suits and weapons and vehicles available at launch. I also feel we should have launched with robust FPS mechanics in place.
But we are stuck with what we have, not what should be. What we have is that we lack both full set of racial gear and solid FPS mechanics. And choosing between those two, FPS mechanics must take precedence. Ah, I do try to convey that adding all basic stuffs should be as crucial as balancing the existing one and you should add it to your list along with balancing. they are not mutually exclusive, we agree with each other on this one. However, I do think we need a complete set of rock-paper-scissors first before we can start balancing stuffs.
Yes, I know we aren't living in ideal world and resource is limited. That's why if I need to choose one over another I will choose finishing all stuffs over balancing stuffs that will need to be rebalanced sooner or later anyway. It's a waste of manpower. All things we discuss here should actually be done in closed beta, not after released. But what's done is done. I am not complain about that. I, however, still believe that Dust will benefit from finishing all this rock-paper-scissors ASAP. Unlike lag and frame rate issue, adding basic stuffs have definite solution and (relatively) definite timeline. It can be done in foreseen future. If you think waiting for them to finish it is too long, waiting for lag to be fixed and the end of dust will be upon us before it's fixed. I'm not saying lag shouldn't be fixed or should be leaved for later. I'm saying completing basic stuffs is way more easier and have a lot of gain.
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
206
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Posted - 2013.05.27 13:53:00 -
[63] - Quote
-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
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Madagascan Eagle
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.05.27 13:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
+1 op |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
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Posted - 2013.05.27 13:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:Unlike lag and frame rate issue, adding basic stuffs have definite solution and (relatively) definite timeline. It can be done in foreseen future. If you think waiting for them to finish it is too long, waiting for lag to be fixed and the end of dust will be upon us before it's fixed. I'm not saying lag shouldn't be fixed or should be leaved for later. I'm saying completing basic stuffs is way more easier and have a lot of gain.
Not sure how you can make such assumptions unless you have insider information and are a game designer. For all we know Devs might have just the first draft graphics for suits and weapons, no place in the game, no stats, no playtesting, nothing. I have no idea how many man-hours all that would take. Just like I have no idea how many man-hours it would take to fix lag and framerate issues. Therefore discussing which one could come first is pointless. And that's largely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.
I feel that fixing lag and framerate takes precedence over new suits and gear, and I bet most would agree. I appreciate these could be worked in parallel and are likely done by separate people. But this thread is about prioritization, and extra features belong under EVERYTHING ELSE. The game works fine without more suits and weapons, but doesn't without lag, framerate and balancing fixes. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:00:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
I strongly agree with the ones about scanning and scouts - passive scanning is a non-feature in Uprising due to unnecessarily short scan ranges, and Logis are better scouts than Scouts in all aspects that matter.
Nevertheless, items above belong either under Balancing, or under EVERYTHING ELSE. Scanning does impact everyone, but it's not a (near-)gamebreaking problem. |
Talruum Tezztarozza
Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS.
132
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Posted - 2013.05.27 14:52:00 -
[67] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:Not sure how you can make such assumptions unless you have insider information and are a game designer. For all we know Devs might have just the first draft graphics for suits and weapons, no place in the game, no stats, no playtesting, nothing. I have no idea how many man-hours all that would take. Just like I have no idea how many man-hours it would take to fix lag and framerate issues. Therefore discussing which one could come first is pointless. And that's largely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread. No, I don't have any insider information. I just based it on my experience as a programmer. While implementing new suit and weapon model is a time consuming process. I believe it's quite straight forward one. Network issue on the other hand usually tricky and more often than not you can't do anything about it. I'm certain CCP can do better than this but I doubt it will ever be eliminated simply due to laws of physics.
Yes, It's just my assumption, my opinion. I can be wrong. I, however, believe that it's relevant to our discussion. When you prioritize things, you also need to considered time needed to finish it. I do agree, however, that we may not have enough information to make any intelligence guess so I will leave it at that.
Arramakaian Eka wrote:I feel that fixing lag and framerate takes precedence over new suits and gear, and I bet most would agree. I appreciate these could be worked in parallel and are likely done by separate people. But this thread is about prioritization, and extra features belong under EVERYTHING ELSE. The game works fine without more suits and weapons, but doesn't without lag, framerate and balancing fixes. In fact, I'm not dispute over the important of lag and framerate issue. I just argue that balancing and mandatory stuffs (I wouldn't call it new) is inseparable. My bad for dragging these two issues together. When you make a rock-paper-scissors game, you need to add all three of them into the game first. If you have no scissors, there is no way you can balance rock and paper without breaking the very core of your game. You either turn a paper into another rock,turn it to rock throwing game, or you let paper players own rock players over and over until you add scissors. If you don't do it soon enough most rock players will leave. That is why I push for it. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
206
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Posted - 2013.05.27 17:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
I strongly agree with the ones about scanning and scouts - passive scanning is a non-feature in Uprising due to unnecessarily short scan ranges, and Logis are better scouts than Scouts in all aspects that matter. Nevertheless, items above belong either under Balancing, or under EVERYTHING ELSE. Scanning does impact everyone, but it's not a (near-)gamebreaking problem.
I was debating about including it and I decided to because I feel that passive scanning is what makes or breaks scout and as of not scout is broken. Since 1 out of 4 dropsuits practically never gets used, I think it affects the game profoundly. But I definitely see your point that these things are difficult to prioritize. |
Stan Kattel
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC RUST415
27
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Posted - 2013.05.27 17:23:00 -
[69] - Quote
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
617
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Posted - 2013.05.27 22:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
I strongly agree with the ones about scanning and scouts - passive scanning is a non-feature in Uprising due to unnecessarily short scan ranges, and Logis are better scouts than Scouts in all aspects that matter. Nevertheless, items above belong either under Balancing, or under EVERYTHING ELSE. Scanning does impact everyone, but it's not a (near-)gamebreaking problem. I was debating about including it and I decided to because I feel that passive scanning is what makes or breaks scout and as of not scout is broken. Since 1 out of 4 dropsuits practically never gets used, I think it affects the game profoundly. But I definitely see your point that these things are difficult to prioritize.
Passive scanning is one of the least of Scout issues. Short scan ranges makes Scouts more powerful in one aspect: Shotgun Scouts can sneak up on people more easily. And Gallente suits can stack up on PD skill and mods, and get passive scanning to tens of meters, which is actually useful.
Scouts main problems are lacking CPU and PG, and having only one equipment slot, which makes their utility extremely limited. Their only advantage is speed, which is not enough to make Scouts a viable class in randoms, and pretty much useless in PC. |
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TEBOW BAGGINS
GHETTOSTAR GALACTICA
573
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Posted - 2013.05.27 23:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
add zombies
/thread |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
620
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Posted - 2013.05.28 09:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
Added a link to a post with dev input on aiming to OP. |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
318
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 10:41:00 -
[73] - Quote
Trouble with dust is that everything will be added or sorted later.
The game has been in development for a long time and most of the basic issues should have been put right during beta but alas things remain the same for the most part.
I dont want to play a good game 4 or 5 years down the line I want to play one now, which leaves dust out on a limb.
Yes it has potential but who wants mediocre when you can purchase any number of decent fps now, and the free to play just is not enough to hold you to it when it clearly has many issues still. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
623
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 20:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:Trouble with dust is that everything will be added or sorted later.
The game has been in development for a long time and most of the basic issues should have been put right during beta but alas things remain the same for the most part.
I dont want to play a good game 4 or 5 years down the line I want to play one now, which leaves dust out on a limb.
Yes it has potential but who wants mediocre when you can purchase any number of decent fps now, and the free to play just is not enough to hold you to it when it clearly has many issues still.
Dust is the only F2P FPS on PS3, and will likely remain so for a while. There are several F2P FPSs on PCs, of course. I've played Tribes:Ascend quite a bit, and while it's not Tribes 2 - cappers are way too slow now, "only" 200 km/h or so, projectile speed inheritance is borked, etc. -, it is a solid FPS.
But yeah, I agree that there are better options out there. Many of us are here for the potential, and I hope the devs will be able to turn this game around within the next year. Yes, that's how long I think it will take to fix the issues mentioned in the OP posts. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
632
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 09:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Minor update in OP on communication to recognize that CCP has added a News section to the launcher (yay) but is not using it for critical updates (boo). |
Ridoc FC
Blauhelme Orion Empire
3
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:39:00 -
[76] - Quote
Very critical is Dusts possibility to get new players! Maybe the most critical Part!!
i showed Dust to everyone of my Friends to get them involved, but most of them not even survived a day online. Dust must evolve in this point to simply survive the Goal of another "Decade" Game.
The Academy is quite a good idea, but they need far more then this, new players neet to be taken by the hand:
- Trainings, like aiming on "Drones" and Stuff - Like in EVE the Aura Missions with simple tutorials
- More SP/WP based Rankings for open Games (minimum 5) - With: 1 bloody noobs, 2 Advanced Noobs, 3 Medium skilled/trained Mercs, 4 Professional Mercs and 5 Proto Pro Gamer
- Friendly Games/Duell's aside of PC and Corp Matches (without gaining WP or whatever)
The Tutorials are the most important thing for a newbie, just to get a look and feel to the game. Getting stomped by well skilled, well organized, well stuffed Mercs at the first days will lead to 80-90% falling apart |
Syther Shadows
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
87
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
Buff Lav's
what happens when AV weapons get specked into ? |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
638
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ridoc FC wrote:Very critical is Dusts possibility to get new players! Maybe the most critical Part!! i showed Dust to everyone of my Friends to get them involved, but most of them not even survived a day online. Dust must evolve in this point to simply survive the Goal of another "Decade" Game. The Academy is quite a good idea, but they need far more then this, new players neet to be taken by the hand:
- Trainings, like aiming on "Drones" and Stuff - Like in EVE the Aura Missions with simple tutorials
- More SP/WP based Rankings for open Games (minimum 5) - With: 1 bloody noobs, 2 Advanced Noobs, 3 Medium skilled/trained Mercs, 4 Professional Mercs and 5 Proto Pro Gamer
- Friendly Games/Duell's aside of PC and Corp Matches (without gaining WP or whatever)
The Tutorials are the most important thing for a newbie, just to get a look and feel to the game. Getting stomped by well skilled, well organized, well stuffed Mercs at the first days will lead to 80-90% falling apart
While I agree, you can't create more arbitrarily large # of tiers to the playerbase due to its small size, as queues will get longer the more segmented the players are. As the steady playerbase goes above 10k concurrent players, 2-3 more tiers will become feasible, but likely not earlier.
Note that more maps and/or game modes will further complicate MM and possibly lengthen queues. |
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