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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
558
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP's stated objective for Dust is to be a AAA shooter. I believe most of us agree that we are not there, yet - but many of us feel we can get there, me included. This thread is a community-driven effort to prioritize Dust development from the players' perspective to elevate Dust to AAA-titlehood.
There has been lots of progress since August when I joined the closed beta, but some of that progress has not been in the areas which I feel is critical or crucial to the success of Dust as an FPS and an MMO. Therefore I feel it is necessary for us to put everything in one place for easy reference for the Devs, and for the community to edit.
Dust must stand on its own as an FPS to be successful. That's what this thread is about. To outline the game design objectives and game mechanics needed for an AAA title.
In following posts my list - it is not meant to be exhaustive. I will review the comments, and add any that I have missed, and even ones I disagree with but which get enough Likes.
This is not a laundry list of all issues and suggestions: please only post high-level CRITICAL or CRUCIAL items, EVERYTHING ELSE belongs in other threads. Don't post your pet projects which don't impact the entire game or have to do with just a subset of players; I'd love to talk at length about how Scouts need TLC, but that belongs in EVERYTHING ELSE or as part of item balancing, balancing, balancing below.
Please don't post balancing issues unless they are gamebreaking or close to it. Balacing is too specific for this thread, and is an on-going effort.
Please post links to constructive threads discussing your suggestions, or on items listed below, so that I can add them. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
558
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
CRITICAL - these need to be fixed now
- Framerate - rock steady and high fps is critical for an FPS. Many experience huge framerate drops especially in close quarter combat.
- Lag - there are videos of rubberbanding and numerous reports of other really bad lag issues.
- New player experience - you can't throw window after window of graphs, UI elements and pages of text at a new player. There needs to be a proper tutorial for the UI and especially gameplay, which doesn't tell or show you what to do, but lets you do it yourself at your own pace.
- Matchmaking - a newbie MM queue was introduced which was needed, but people are thrown in with the protostompers too early. And non-newbie MM needs more tiers or to allow more time to match similarly skilled and geared players together.
- Getting stuck in terrain, corners and other map elements
- Communication - CCP needs to improve communication with players. Forum posts are not enough. More on this topic in a post below.
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
558
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
CRUCIAL - need to be prioritized over everything else
- More game modes - we currently have two game modes (the other two are minor variants), and neither of them are unique. Team Deathmatch (Ambush) is a necessary FPS trope which is good to have, and Skirmish with its waypoint-holding mechanic fits the world perfectly. We need more for longevity of the game.
- More maps - we haven't seen new maps in months, there need to be more for variability and to keep people interested. Introduce a new map every month or two, for example, and commit to that.
- Balancing, balancing, balancing - this will never end, and it needs to be done constantly. You must re-balance clearly imbalanced items swiftly (TAR), while tweaking more complex interactions iteratively (HAV vs AV, Logis being better scouts thand Scouts).
- Keyboard and Mouse - I don't use KBM myself in Dust, but it sounds like it needs attention from numerous forum posts. I think it's a mistake to include KBM due to the difficult if not impossible task of balancing it with a Controller, but since you have it, you need to balance it.
- AFK camping needs to be stopped - it makes matches unbalanced, and makes a mockery of the SP system and Devs.
- Skill Points - you can't do enough with starter SP, and there's not enough meaningful variety with characters. Higher starter SP, or a pool of free starter skills based on race and role would fix this.
- Ensuring Pay-to-Win doesn't creep in, and that CCP sticks to their end of the deal - given precedent set by Omega boosters and the Merc pack debacle, I'm afraid we will get more and more aggressive marketing of unbalancing boosters and AUR gear, and that CCP will feel free to adjust terms as they see fit. This needs to be kept in check, and the community needs to be vigilant about P2W creep.
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
558
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
EVERYTHING ELSE
Finally, CCP needs to improve communication with players. Too many important news are hidden deep in obscure threads somewhere in a sub-forum. Forums should not be the only place we find out about SP cap changes, weapon balancing or skill tree respecs. Too often we get conflcting, inaccurate and incomplete information - it causes frustration for Devs and players, and makes it look like you didn't think things through.
I suggest the Devs to produce a State Of Game post every week, outlining the main changes implemented recently and in the near future, and what you are working on at any given moment with a Soon tag on it, and what is being post-poned to future. Post it on the forums and the in-game welcome screen. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
558
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Reserved |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
559
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Posted - 2013.05.24 12:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lasarte Ioni wrote:+1 Vote for TOTY (Thread of the year)
CRITICAL: the aim, we don't want another KZ2 pls
Thanks for the support!
Can you be a bit more specific on what's wrong with aiming and how to improve?
I was planning to include hitboxes and aiming in my seeded list, but couldn't really pinpoint what's wrong with them and how to improve. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
566
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Posted - 2013.05.24 17:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:FPS - This is a game engine/PS3 issue. They chose Unreal. The PS3 is doing it's best given the scale, with the intended engine. It's not fair to compare with BF3's Frostbite engine, for example, (totally different engine optimized for the PS3). Graphics are going to be ongoing, but don't expect things to get much better with the current engine. They would need to create a whole new engine to get the major graphics rework that you want that would produce improved FPS (another year of dev time).
Unreal 3 is perfectly capable of high frame rates. CCP needs to balance eye candy with maintaining high fps. But point taken, I'll clarify the OP with that point.
Quote:Lag/Latency - Another variable. More dependent on so-called "internet weather". They're doing pretty good in this area considering the scale. This game does a LOT more on the server-side as opposed to the client-side vs. other games. Improvement here is GOING to take time.
Wasn't such an issue in Chromosome.
But yes, there are a lot of variables, and I'm afraid the lag in PC some people are experiencing is due to people being literally all around the world - and that will never get fixed due to laws of physics.
Quote:Matchmaking - I disagree with the matchmaking. Newbies play with us, to learn how to play, and to get recruited. Dust is squad-based, and they will learn this very early, or they will leave. I DO however wish, the MM would compensate for putting them up against 2 fully-stacked teams. SP difference, not too much of a problem. Organized TEAM difference? That's the MM issue.
Fair point, I'll amend the OP.
Quote:Game Modes - My understanding during the closed beta was that the "Instant Battle" thing is actually what we are trying to get away from. We don't want a random set of game modes that have no purpose. Faction Warfare is being developed so that every battle fought literally effects EVE, and matters. The Instant Battles were simply supposed to be "proofs of concept" for the full game, with a Combat Arena coming later to satisfy the player desire for things like CTF and Domination, etc. But the INTENTION is supposed to be totally player owned and controlled districts, where we decide what buildings and installations to place... naturally this will take time. I imagine the Combat Arena will have a betting system so people can earn isk.
Regardless of the destiny of Instant Battle, the point remains: we need more game modes. Whether they are in FW or PC, there need to be more than two of the most basic game modes.
CTF has no place in Dust (and neither does TDM), but I'm sure some imaginative individual could shoehorn it into the EVE universe somehow :P |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
566
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Posted - 2013.05.24 17:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:More Maps - I agree with this. A new map every month would be wonderful. This would make maps where certain roles dominate, inevitable, and I agree with that. A map where snipers rule? Yes. A map where heavies rule? Yes. I want to see us spitting out more maps. Monthly is perfect.
This is exactly the type of feedback I'm seeking! CCP should not be afraid to take risks, and "unbalanced" maps like that would be great. I'll amend.
Quote:KB/M vs. Gamepad - This has already been addressed. Mice have a new sensitivity cap to keep them more in line with gamepads, this reduces the effectiveness of multi-DPI mice.
Has it been addressed in the last couple of days? If not, I'll keep it until I get confirmation from others it's not an issue.
Quote:AFK Camping - You really don't need to be concerned about what someone is doing if they go afk. Yes, them not helping you means the match is unbalanced. Public matches where this occurs is of no consequence to anything. Every game has AFKers in some way. As long as matches are open to the public this will exist. Mid firefight, someone can walk right off and abandon you, and go AFK. That's reality. Get over it. If SP farming is what you're complaining about, that's not going to break the game. Players voted that system in during the beta. That is likely here to stay. It's New Eden, in a public match, no one is nor should be obligated to help you fight.
There have been numerous threads about it, and this is not the place for that discussion.
I'll just say that game mechanics (passive SP per second in game) encourages AFK camping, which is clearly against the spirit of an FPS. It gives a negligible benefit to a small subset of the more callous player with nothing better to do than to cheat, at the expense of the enjoyability of the game for everyone unlucky enough to be in a game with AFK campers. It is griefing, and it is griefing even in New Eden. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
578
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 09:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:Minor gripe, but an excuse to keep the thread alive...
What's up with jumping out of the MCC only to land at the bottom of an installation full of toxic waste? Instant death. How about not putting a death trap right under the MCC (we don't all recognize every building on the map before jumping).
And in some cases it's not readily apparent which places are death traps, and which are safe to land on. I think this belongs to EVERYTHING ELSE, though. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
604
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Posted - 2013.05.26 11:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
I added aiming to the CRITICAL list due to several people reporting it. For me aiming issues are due to framerate drops, but it appears others have various problems with aiming.
Please post more detail on what is wrong with aiming, or better yet, how to fix it!
Khan Hun wrote:-Aiming down sights is to slow compared to aiming/looking normally
I'm positive this is by design. Many FPSs which have aiming-down-sights (ie. zoomed-in view through a scope or similar contraption) slow down your turning speed while using it. This is to balance, and to make control easier. If zoomed-in view would have the same radial speed as shooting from the hip, it would be very hard to control. This issue multiplies the higher the zoom factor is. It makes sense, is a common FPS mechanic, and works well in the games using it I've played.
Nevertheless, given the number of people reporting aiming issues, this might be part of them. If you think this is an issue, please post in comments! |
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
607
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Posted - 2013.05.27 09:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Added "Exploits" to CRITICAL section. AWOXing and TARs are the current exploits requiring immediate attention. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
611
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thanks, Boss - added to OP! |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote: Balancing, balancing, balancing
I disagree on this one. CCP please don't waste time trying to balance an incomplete game. We need all the tool we got before we know if anything is OP or not. Don't try to balance standard tank against prototype forge gun. Either give us proto tank or simply remove proto AVs. Don't bother balance suits. give us all basic racial suits first (Light & Heavy) Which lead to my suggestion Finish all basic stuff in game please
- all racial basic suits - all racial basic vehicle LAV, HAV, Dropship - all racial standard rifle, pistol, knife? - more heavy weapon, one for each race, 4 in total sound like a good number.
I don't think you have really thought this through.
First of all, Dust - like EVE - will always be an incomplete game. It will never be "done," and CCP will continue working on tweaks and expansions and builds for 10+ years if the game survives. Therefore we can't wait until the game is done for balancing to start.
Even if we would wait for the milestones you mention to get introduced - racial basic suits, vehicles and weapons -, we'd be stuck with an imbalanced game for 2-3 builds; and the imbalances would only get worse as more stuff is added. That is 1-2 years of a wildly imbalanced game, something which I'm certain no one wants.
Balancing needs to be an on-going effort, and it needs to continue from now on until the end of Dust. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:While balancing needs to be an on-going effort, some issues can't be fixed by balancing. A standard tank won't be able to go against proto forge EVER. It shouldn't.
I'd argue that most would agree with you, and so do I. That would be a properly balanced tank and FG. I'm not sure what you are trying to convey with that example.
Quote:HMG lacking range isn't the problem. It's that a heavy have no heavy mid(or long) range anti-infantry weapon. These things need to be fixed by adding new stuffs, not messing with existed one.
Balancing and adding new stuff are not mutually exclusive; you can do both.
Dust's stated objective is a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. When Dust is properly balanced, TAR would not be the be-all end-all weapon it is right now, but just another weapon among many. In a properly balanced game there can be weapons which are superior at one application but vastly inferior at others - sniper rifle and nova knives being prime examples.
Quote:I do believe that my suggestion is another bare minimum requirement for this game. It's called frigging basic suit for a reason. It's also way more easy to solve than eliminate lag and FPS issue. This mean it can be finished in a definite timeline, thus a more realistic roadmap. I don't think CCP released EVE with only Galante/Minmatar frigate and Amarr battleship, did they ? (If this is the case just tell me I will shut up at once ^^")
I agree that it would have been ideal to have a full suite of suits and weapons and vehicles available at launch. I also feel we should have launched with robust FPS mechanics in place.
But we are stuck with what we have, not what should be. What we have is that we lack both full set of racial gear and solid FPS mechanics. And choosing between those two, FPS mechanics must take precedence. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 13:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:Unlike lag and frame rate issue, adding basic stuffs have definite solution and (relatively) definite timeline. It can be done in foreseen future. If you think waiting for them to finish it is too long, waiting for lag to be fixed and the end of dust will be upon us before it's fixed. I'm not saying lag shouldn't be fixed or should be leaved for later. I'm saying completing basic stuffs is way more easier and have a lot of gain.
Not sure how you can make such assumptions unless you have insider information and are a game designer. For all we know Devs might have just the first draft graphics for suits and weapons, no place in the game, no stats, no playtesting, nothing. I have no idea how many man-hours all that would take. Just like I have no idea how many man-hours it would take to fix lag and framerate issues. Therefore discussing which one could come first is pointless. And that's largely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.
I feel that fixing lag and framerate takes precedence over new suits and gear, and I bet most would agree. I appreciate these could be worked in parallel and are likely done by separate people. But this thread is about prioritization, and extra features belong under EVERYTHING ELSE. The game works fine without more suits and weapons, but doesn't without lag, framerate and balancing fixes. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
613
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
I strongly agree with the ones about scanning and scouts - passive scanning is a non-feature in Uprising due to unnecessarily short scan ranges, and Logis are better scouts than Scouts in all aspects that matter.
Nevertheless, items above belong either under Balancing, or under EVERYTHING ELSE. Scanning does impact everyone, but it's not a (near-)gamebreaking problem. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
617
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Posted - 2013.05.27 22:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:-- Fix passive scanning (more range to suits that should have scanning bonuses like scout and logi; red dots that are behind you but are very close should light up on the map if your suit has the right precision for it and range). -- Fix scout suit that currently does not have a role as it's worse at everything that it was supposed to be good at than other suits. -- Along the lines of balancing: fix breach versions of weapons. Breach SG and Breach MD are useless. Breach FG is borderline useless. -- Balancing: make other weapons more competitive relative to assault rifles -- Fix knifing mechanic: fast animation and damage output, and knifer must be able to catch up to a backpedalling target if you are just a couple of paces behind them.
I strongly agree with the ones about scanning and scouts - passive scanning is a non-feature in Uprising due to unnecessarily short scan ranges, and Logis are better scouts than Scouts in all aspects that matter. Nevertheless, items above belong either under Balancing, or under EVERYTHING ELSE. Scanning does impact everyone, but it's not a (near-)gamebreaking problem. I was debating about including it and I decided to because I feel that passive scanning is what makes or breaks scout and as of not scout is broken. Since 1 out of 4 dropsuits practically never gets used, I think it affects the game profoundly. But I definitely see your point that these things are difficult to prioritize.
Passive scanning is one of the least of Scout issues. Short scan ranges makes Scouts more powerful in one aspect: Shotgun Scouts can sneak up on people more easily. And Gallente suits can stack up on PD skill and mods, and get passive scanning to tens of meters, which is actually useful.
Scouts main problems are lacking CPU and PG, and having only one equipment slot, which makes their utility extremely limited. Their only advantage is speed, which is not enough to make Scouts a viable class in randoms, and pretty much useless in PC. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
620
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Posted - 2013.05.28 09:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Added a link to a post with dev input on aiming to OP. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
623
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Posted - 2013.05.28 20:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:Trouble with dust is that everything will be added or sorted later.
The game has been in development for a long time and most of the basic issues should have been put right during beta but alas things remain the same for the most part.
I dont want to play a good game 4 or 5 years down the line I want to play one now, which leaves dust out on a limb.
Yes it has potential but who wants mediocre when you can purchase any number of decent fps now, and the free to play just is not enough to hold you to it when it clearly has many issues still.
Dust is the only F2P FPS on PS3, and will likely remain so for a while. There are several F2P FPSs on PCs, of course. I've played Tribes:Ascend quite a bit, and while it's not Tribes 2 - cappers are way too slow now, "only" 200 km/h or so, projectile speed inheritance is borked, etc. -, it is a solid FPS.
But yeah, I agree that there are better options out there. Many of us are here for the potential, and I hope the devs will be able to turn this game around within the next year. Yes, that's how long I think it will take to fix the issues mentioned in the OP posts. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
632
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Minor update in OP on communication to recognize that CCP has added a News section to the launcher (yay) but is not using it for critical updates (boo). |
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
638
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ridoc FC wrote:Very critical is Dusts possibility to get new players! Maybe the most critical Part!! i showed Dust to everyone of my Friends to get them involved, but most of them not even survived a day online. Dust must evolve in this point to simply survive the Goal of another "Decade" Game. The Academy is quite a good idea, but they need far more then this, new players neet to be taken by the hand:
- Trainings, like aiming on "Drones" and Stuff - Like in EVE the Aura Missions with simple tutorials
- More SP/WP based Rankings for open Games (minimum 5) - With: 1 bloody noobs, 2 Advanced Noobs, 3 Medium skilled/trained Mercs, 4 Professional Mercs and 5 Proto Pro Gamer
- Friendly Games/Duell's aside of PC and Corp Matches (without gaining WP or whatever)
The Tutorials are the most important thing for a newbie, just to get a look and feel to the game. Getting stomped by well skilled, well organized, well stuffed Mercs at the first days will lead to 80-90% falling apart
While I agree, you can't create more arbitrarily large # of tiers to the playerbase due to its small size, as queues will get longer the more segmented the players are. As the steady playerbase goes above 10k concurrent players, 2-3 more tiers will become feasible, but likely not earlier.
Note that more maps and/or game modes will further complicate MM and possibly lengthen queues. |
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