DUST Search - Dust 514 is P2A, not P2W

Jaron Pollard wrote:

Elrick Mercer wrote:

Pay to earn skill points at a faster rate.

Pay to get AUR so that you can get better suits and weapons with less pre req's than someone who doesn't.

Sounds like pay to win to me IMO...

If you skill up faster but then can also turn around and get proto gear while only skilling as high as advanced stuff that says pay to win.

The announcer says it better! "Aurum do more faster"

Take two players who are equally skilled let one use aurum and the other isk the aurum player will win 9 out of 10 because he was able to get to the better stuff faster

This. I'd say about 7 outta 10 times I get killed, it's by something 'named' that someone spent money on. It's almost parity, but it's still a higher rate of 'death-by-wallet' as opposed to 'death-by-game'. But that's okay, I'm not complaining, I don't particularly care because I kill them more often than they kill me. I'm just saying, buying this stuff definitely gives a player an advantage. I know CCP was trying not to let it happen that way, but it did.

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Makyre Vahliha The White Hawk Knights 87	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:32:00 - [1] - Quote I recently posted in a thread on this and decided to bring it up again in the hope to clarify the confusion on certain items in the marketplace giving an advantage over others, such as the boosters. The boosters give an advantage to get ahead, not to become powerful or pwn others. Therefore, it SHOULD be called P2A (Pay to Advance.) It really all comes down to how you play, not become invincible. CCP never meant for it to be a P2W game.
GLiMPSE X Gigolos of the Interwebz 48	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:37:00 - [2] - Quote Makyre Vahliha wrote: I recently posted in a thread on this and decided to bring it up again in the hope to clarify the confusion on certain items in the marketplace giving an advantage over others, such as the boosters. The boosters give an advantage to get ahead, not to become powerful or pwn others. Therefore, it SHOULD be called P2A (Pay to Advance.) It really all comes down to how you play, not become invincible. CCP never meant for it to be a P2W game. You don't even need to call it pay to advance. How bout we call it what it is. A system that offers you the ability to spend money to save time.
Elrick Mercer Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 35	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:48:00 - [3] - Quote Pay to earn skill points at a faster rate. Pay to get AUR so that you can get better suits and weapons with less pre req's than someone who doesn't. Sounds like pay to win to me IMO... If you skill up faster but then can also turn around and get proto gear while only skilling as high as advanced stuff that says pay to win. The announcer says it better! "Aurum do more faster" Take two players who are equally skilled let one use aurum and the other isk the aurum player will win 9 out of 10 because he was able to get to the better stuff faster
XiBravo TeamPlayers EoN. 42	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:55:00 - [4] - Quote With the weekly sp cap being higher with boosters, it is pay to win not pay to save time. you cannot gain as much sp with more time...
GLiMPSE X Gigolos of the Interwebz 49	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:59:00 - [5] - Quote XiBravo wrote: With the weekly sp cap being higher with boosters, it is pay to win not pay to save time. you cannot gain as much sp with more time... Having more SP doesnt guarantee a win. This argument is only valid in the short term as the curves for amount of sp for the amount of impact it has is so slanted. It tapers off the higher you specialize. As I said. It allows one to pay money to save time. One can spend their time grinding after cap matches to catch up if they really wanted to keep it even.
GLiMPSE X Gigolos of the Interwebz 49	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:05:00 - [6] - Quote P2W is such a trickey subject for most people. It's a balancing act. Most people consider the worst p2w to be selling things that provide an in match advantage that arent otherwise achievable without paying money. Dust doesnt have this. You can do anything someone who pays can. It may take you more time...but that's the choice one makes to play for free. Dust, so far, has done a good job of incentivizing payment while not making things unattainable by the f2p player. Look, games need to make money, if no one ever had a reason to pay money there would be no game. If you don't feel like spending extra time on your part to 'keep up' with SP/ISK from the paying players....go mow a lawn or two and pay some money....in most cases this is a more efficient use of your time.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1098	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:24:00 - [7] - Quote Until we see someone die to SP on the kill feed, Dust 514 will never be pay to win.
Liam Helm OSG Planetary Operations 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:38:00 - [8] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Until we see someone die to SP on the kill feed, Dust 514 will never be pay to win. HAHA seriously just because someone sits on a inactive SP for days and days and comes back months later with 10 mil sp dosent make them a good player.
Buwaro Draemon The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 34	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:51:00 - [9] - Quote XiBravo wrote: With the weekly sp cap being higher with boosters, it is pay to win not pay to save time. you cannot gain as much sp with more time... No. Active boosters don't lift your weekly cap. The skill points you earn with the bokster are not counted tkwards your weekly cap.
N1ck Comeau Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 375	Posted - 2013.05.22 08:57:00 - [10] - Quote More Skill points does not equal a better player.

J'Hiera Algintal Core Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:04:00 - [11] - Quote It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve.
ZDub 303 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 186	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:06:00 - [12] - Quote GLiMPSE X wrote: P2W is such a tricky subject for most people. It's a balancing act. Most people consider the worst p2w to be selling things that provide an in match advantage that aren't otherwise achievable without paying money. M2 Contact Grenades say you're wrong.
R F Gyro The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 353	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:07:00 - [13] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: GLiMPSE X wrote: P2W is such a tricky subject for most people. It's a balancing act. Most people consider the worst p2w to be selling things that provide an in match advantage that aren't otherwise achievable without paying money. M2 Contact Grenades say you're wrong. Report it as a defect.
GLiMPSE X Gigolos of the Interwebz 53	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:34:00 - [14] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: GLiMPSE X wrote: P2W is such a tricky subject for most people. It's a balancing act. Most people consider the worst p2w to be selling things that provide an in match advantage that aren't otherwise achievable without paying money. M2 Contact Grenades say you're wrong. M2 Contact Grenades were removed...no?
Makyre Vahliha The White Hawk Knights 88	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:38:00 - [15] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve. +1 Finally, someone understands.
Jaron Pollard Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated 122	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:39:00 - [16] - Quote Elrick Mercer wrote: Pay to earn skill points at a faster rate. Pay to get AUR so that you can get better suits and weapons with less pre req's than someone who doesn't. Sounds like pay to win to me IMO... If you skill up faster but then can also turn around and get proto gear while only skilling as high as advanced stuff that says pay to win. The announcer says it better! "Aurum do more faster" Take two players who are equally skilled let one use aurum and the other isk the aurum player will win 9 out of 10 because he was able to get to the better stuff faster This. I'd say about 7 outta 10 times I get killed, it's by something 'named' that someone spent money on. It's almost parity, but it's still a higher rate of 'death-by-wallet' as opposed to 'death-by-game'. But that's okay, I'm not complaining, I don't particularly care because I kill them more often than they kill me. I'm just saying, buying this stuff definitely gives a player an advantage. I know CCP was trying not to let it happen that way, but it did.
Kaze Eyrou ROGUE SPADES EoN. 238	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:42:00 - [17] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Until we see someone die to SP on the kill feed, Dust 514 will never be pay to win. Cosgar, you and I have disagreed on so much... (ok maybe not that much... anyways...) But I'm finally glad to see a statement you made that hit the nail on the head and it happens to be a statement I can get behind. Well done man. :)
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1103	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:43:00 - [18] - Quote Jaron Pollard wrote: Elrick Mercer wrote: Pay to earn skill points at a faster rate. Pay to get AUR so that you can get better suits and weapons with less pre req's than someone who doesn't. Sounds like pay to win to me IMO... If you skill up faster but then can also turn around and get proto gear while only skilling as high as advanced stuff that says pay to win. The announcer says it better! "Aurum do more faster" Take two players who are equally skilled let one use aurum and the other isk the aurum player will win 9 out of 10 because he was able to get to the better stuff faster This. I'd say about 7 outta 10 times I get killed, it's by something 'named' that someone spent money on. It's almost parity, but it's still a higher rate of 'death-by-wallet' as opposed to 'death-by-game'. But that's okay, I'm not complaining, I don't particularly care because I kill them more often than they kill me. I'm just saying, buying this stuff definitely gives a player an advantage. I know CCP was trying not to let it happen that way, but it did. Not all named things are AUR items, and even if they're AUR they're just a higher tier item that costs real money to use without fully investing SP. For example, the "Killswitch" GEK-38 is just a Duvolle for less SP at the cost of shoving a few quarters in your PS3.
THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 98	Posted - 2013.05.22 09:47:00 - [19] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve. Well said.
Weapon Kaiser The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 11	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:00:00 - [20] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: XiBravo wrote: With the weekly sp cap being higher with boosters, it is pay to win not pay to save time. you cannot gain as much sp with more time... No. Active boosters don't lift your weekly cap. The skill points you earn with the bokster are not counted tkwards your weekly cap. Wrong. If the boosted SP doesn't count towards the cap, then they are added on top, effectively increasing your cap. Prove to me otherwise.

tander09 RISE OF THE EMPIRE The Superpowers 13	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:02:00 - [21] - Quote paying aurum givez da luxorious blueprints...I luv blueprintz
Allah's Snackbar Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:04:00 - [22] - Quote It's P2W as you can chase the FOTM without the same non $ investment as other punters. That's about all there is to say really.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 548	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:24:00 - [23] - Quote It's not a black-and-white issue in Dust's case. CCP has stated they have no intention to introduce AUR gear that's better than what can be achieved by grinding. So we are left with grinding for SP and ISK to get skills and gear. You are trading money for less time spent playing the game - essentially you are paying to not to have to play the game, but that's another discussion. It's easier to take examples to absurd extremes to understand it better - bear with me. Scenario 1: you get 1 SP and 1 AUR by spending a 100 euro. Alternatively, you get 1% SP booster lasting 1 day for your money. I doubt anyone would consider this P2W. Scenario 2: you get 10m SP and 1m AUR by spending 1 EUR. Alternatively, you get a 10,000x SP booster for a year. Almost everyone would consider this P2W. So I believe we agree that one game can be P2W due to the advantage given by spending rl money just on stuff which gives you faster access to gear, while another might not be, although it uses the exact same microtransaction model, just at a lower rate. The question is: at which point between scenario 1 and 2 does a game become P2W? Dust is somewhere between those extremes. I believe they have been successful thus far in avoiding a P2W badge slapped on them - and reading these forums very few people feel Dust is P2W in its current form. I don't. But given the Omega booster, CCP has shown they have more aggressive methods for boosting - and this is only second week after launch. I guarantee CCP will push further and farther with boosters, making them more potent, longer-lasting, or cheaper, and introducing other ways to spend your rl money to gain an advantage in-game. It remains to be seen if and when the community starts feeling Dust is becoming P2W, and CCP has to back down. I will be long gone before that, as my tolerance to P2W games is very low.
Amorale Lyadstafer Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 8	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:41:00 - [24] - Quote Gear for aur is also a problem, you don't have to worry about income anymoe since you can run in proto as long as you have visa. P2w
Jon Dayne DUST University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:53:00 - [25] - Quote Should thank them instead. They're supporting the game the rest of us play for free..
xxMERIDAxx On-Sight-Response 1	Posted - 2013.05.22 11:03:00 - [26] - Quote Elrick Mercer wrote: Pay to earn skill points at a faster rate. Pay to get AUR so that you can get better suits and weapons with less pre req's than someone who doesn't. Sounds like pay to win to me IMO... If you skill up faster but then can also turn around and get proto gear while only skilling as high as advanced stuff that says pay to win. The announcer says it better! "Aurum do more faster" Take two players who are equally skilled let one use aurum and the other isk the aurum player will win 9 out of 10 because he was able to get to the better stuff faster Just no.Getting gear that has a ingame match 1 month before you is Pay to Advance for sure.If the game was fair to low lvs youd just have better gear to start and nothing to work for.Aur gear is a time save at best not Aur gear is the best.
CrotchGrab 360 Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 67	Posted - 2013.05.22 11:16:00 - [27] - Quote I made a thread saying it's not pay to win unless you win, then it's just a waste of money. That thread got locked but my point still stands. Anyway I would never get P2/A/w/e Aurum gear cos id be infuriated when I lose it.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 98	Posted - 2013.05.22 11:33:00 - [28] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve. Good thing we don't have infinite free use gear then! Oh wait... BPOs... Oops :ccp:
xxMERIDAxx On-Sight-Response 4	Posted - 2013.05.22 11:53:00 - [29] - Quote J-Lewis wrote: J'Hiera wrote: It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve. Good thing we don't have infinite free use gear then! Oh wait... BPOs... Oops :ccp: BPOs are crap,Free sure but useless all the same. All BPOs have a in gamematch for the most part anyhow.Uesing Aur gear gives you no real advantage because the matchmakeing in game will toss players with 1mill sp and 10 mill sp into the same pub matchs.Dust is just a brutal game for new players no amount of real money helps that and Vets dont use BPOs or Aur stuff to stomp when all the top gear costs ISK.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 99	Posted - 2013.05.22 21:02:00 - [30] - Quote xxMERIDAxx wrote: J-Lewis wrote: J'Hiera wrote: It's not P2W by gaining skill points faster. P2W is defined by spending real money to get an advantage people who don't spend real money, can't achieve. Good thing we don't have infinite free use gear then! Oh wait... BPOs... Oops :ccp: BPOs are crap,Free sure but useless all the same. All BPOs have a in gamematch for the most part anyhow.Uesing Aur gear gives you no real advantage because the matchmakeing in game will toss players with 1mill sp and 10 mill sp into the same pub matchs.Dust is just a brutal game for new players no amount of real money helps that and Vets dont use BPOs or Aur stuff to stomp when all the top gear costs ISK. The advantage isn't in the quality of the gear; it's in what it exempts you from: the economy. In other words, when you use BPO gear, you are not risking anything. Additionally, the standard gear that some BPOs are based on will become undesirable for production should we eventually get manufacturing of some sort. Death is meaningless in a BPO suit, and that is against the design principles of New Eden. Here's an interesting quote from CCP Soundwave at Fanfest 2013 -- I've underlined the principles that BPOs violate to some extent: Game Design - Balancing Tears and Laughter: CCP Soundwave gave a talk about 9 game design principles that ideally guide CCP's development process. In order of presentation... CCP Soundwave wrote: 1. "No game should be more complex than it absolutely needs to be to meet its goals." 2. "A good feature can be based on positive or negative interaction, neither is inherently more valuable." 3. "Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences. Give players tools to maximize the variety and impact of their decisions." 4. "Every system should affect, and be affected by, the wider world." 5. "Here are the tools, do something cool with them." 6. "The social experience is more important than the practical system balance; the interaction between winners and losers is more interesting than mechanical equality." 7. "Interactions should be reaching out and touching, more than reading numbers." 8. "Things in the world need to make sense." 9. "Players are not entitled to success. The most aspirational goals are coveted by many but reached by few." Here's my reasoning behind each of those 5 violations: 3. Players cannot impact BPO users in any meaningful way through direct game play; beyond ruining their KDR and rage mailing. 4. BPOs are immune to being affected by the wider world, however they also affect the wider world. 6. BPOs water down the interactions between winners and losers by reducing or removing the impact of loss for the BPO user. 8. BPOs do not make sense; there is no cost associated with their continued use. In a universe that runs on consumption and a cycle of destruction, BPOs break the cycle at both the loss, and creation stage. 9. Players are not entitled to success. BPOs guarantee that regardless of the outcome of the match, you will have made a profit; kill board is green, OP success. Doesn't matter if you don't run with a squad; doesn't matter if you die 50 times. Success is measured in ISK, and what that ISK enables, because ISK makes the world go round. I'll also add that BPO gear is far from useless; I've personally gone 27/9 with that stuff (against prototype squads I might add), add to that that those 9 deaths hardly cost me anything, if at all (say, because I used BPOs). It's an anecdotal fallacy so I won't continue down that path, but suffice to say that succeeding in BPO gear is more than possible, and regardless of match outcome, 100% of the reward is profit -- in other words, there is no risk factor.



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