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Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
69
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone! Let me just start of by saying that I've been a Gallente scout now for a long time and if you guys don't know it yet, the Gallente scout gets a big bonus to scan radius and scan profile reduction. We also have 4 slots to increase those advantages further if we choose to. Now I have a scan radius of 20 meters without any modules, combined with an advanced precision enhancer in my high slot and here's the point I'd like to make, guys:
-I don't think passive scanning mechanics work at the moment
I doubt most people have profile dampeners fitted, and my radar doesn't pick anyone's signal unless I can actually see them on my screen. Is this intended? Now I can see all the enemy equipment very easily, I don't know if everyone can see them or if it's just cause of my scan radius and precision. Now I do understand that this issue might sound like a minor issue for most people as passive scanning doesn't really concern them but for all of us Gallente scouts it's a critical thing, guys. It's our competitive advantage. And I don't think that competitive advantage works at all.
On top of that I still don't know all the factors that affect whether my radar picks up signals of enemies or not. I also can't see my scanning and profile related stats of my specific fittings with the modules attached to them. What I'm trying to say here, guys, is that we scouts don't make a lot of noise here in the forums and we aren't that many but I really hope you guys at CCP know this and take scanning as seriously as you take all the other aspects of the game. Here's what I'd like to see:
-I would like to know exactly how the passive scanning mechanics work: Does sprinting/moving/jumping affect scan profile? How about shooting? Do walls dampen the profile? I want to be 100% sure of all the different factors without a shadow of a doubt. At the moment there's nowhere in game where I could read about this. I don't think there are anything about it even on the forums from a reliable source (please let me know if you've got info on these things).
-I would like to be able to see my fittings scan profile, scan precision and scan radius on the fitting stats.
-Please fix it. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
166
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Remember that to be able to "see" someone on your radar, your scan precision must be lower than their signature profile while they are within range of your scan radius.
If anyone of these should be no with tolerance, then the littel scout sneaks up on you and knifes you in the back. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
274
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Wolfman talked about scanning mechanics a bit someplace, unfortunately I can't find the link ATM. The gist of it was that movement & shooting did nothing to raise your profile. But that was for last build, and I don't know if that's changed since then.
+1 for seeing scan stats affected in fitting, always seemed weird that you can see the effect of other mods or passive skills there but not the scan-related ones. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
70
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Remember that to be able to "see" someone on your radar, your scan precision must be lower than their signature profile while they are within range of your scan radius.
If anyone of these should be no with tolerance, then the littel scout sneaks up on you and knifes you in the back. Exactly, right man! Now I've got my scout suits already boosted scan precision combined with my advanced precision enhancer and I still cannot pick up anyone in my radar unless I have a direct visual on them. I think there's a problem. |
Kazio De Vihura
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
16
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ric Barlom wrote:Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Remember that to be able to "see" someone on your radar, your scan precision must be lower than their signature profile while they are within range of your scan radius.
If anyone of these should be no with tolerance, then the littel scout sneaks up on you and knifes you in the back. Exactly, right man! Now I've got my scout suits already boosted scan precision combined with my advanced precision enhancer and I still cannot pick up anyone in my radar unless I have a direct visual on them. I think there's a problem. They nerf scan range to 5m .... |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
BetaMax. CRONOS.
57
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Posted - 2013.05.08 15:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ric Barlom wrote: -I would like to know exactly how the passive scanning mechanics work: Does sprinting/moving/jumping affect scan profile? How about shooting?
No, crouching also not affect your signature. Weapons doesn't have signatur at all.
Ric Barlom wrote: Do walls dampen the profile? Yes, and structures from this build lower your signature as well, but If you are standing at corner of the building someone may "pick you up" on his radar if he doesn't see you.
I don't know do deployed equipment have some signature in this build. But it can be picked be active scanner, so probably yes.
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Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
70
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Posted - 2013.05.08 15:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kazio De Vihura wrote:Ric Barlom wrote:Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Remember that to be able to "see" someone on your radar, your scan precision must be lower than their signature profile while they are within range of your scan radius.
If anyone of these should be no with tolerance, then the littel scout sneaks up on you and knifes you in the back. Exactly, right man! Now I've got my scout suits already boosted scan precision combined with my advanced precision enhancer and I still cannot pick up anyone in my radar unless I have a direct visual on them. I think there's a problem. They nerf scan range to 5m .... In fact, bro, it's 10 meters. With a gallente scout and proper skills maxed you can get it up to 20 meters without any modules used, like I have. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 17:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Ric Barlom wrote: -I would like to know exactly how the passive scanning mechanics work: Does sprinting/moving/jumping affect scan profile? How about shooting?
No, crouching also not affect your signature. Weapons doesn't have signatur at all. Ric Barlom wrote: Do walls dampen the profile? Yes, and structures from this build lower your signature as well, but If you are standing at corner of the building someone may "pick you up" on his radar if he doesn't see you. I don't know do deployed equipment have some signature in this build. But it can be picked be active scanner, so probably yes. PS what Spacetits CDXX said Can I ask you where you got this information? I mean, yeah, if I have a visual on the enemy they light up like a christmas tree on my radar (you don't need to have high scanning precision for that) but if I can't actually see them on my screen, then my radar doesn't even pick up a militia assault and as I said I'm a scout with precision skills and advanced precision enhancer. |
Marc Rime
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Maxed skills, complex range module on a light suit.
Nothing on the scanner and then someone kills me at point blank range. Seems broken. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Maxed skills, complex range module on a light suit.
Nothing on the scanner and then someone kills me at point blank range. Seems broken. Thanks for the feedback, bro. And, guys, if you're out there playing a scout with some scanning skills/modules please share your experiences. We're not that many out there but I hope someone's looking at this issue because, either things are not working as intended or it's just a very weak style of playing the game at the moment. |
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Emerald Bellerophon
Nenikekamen
2
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Posted - 2013.05.08 20:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
I tried out the 'Hunter Scout' featured fit, and really enjoyed it, so I made scanning scouts a cornerstone of what I did in Chromosome, then specced into scout suits first for Uprising.
This definitely doesn't work as well as it used to. The first thing is that the scan radius has been leveled across all dropsuits; it used to be higher for scouts than any other, but now all the suits I look at have their radius set to 10m. If I remember, for the old scouts, it was 25m, before adding modules, and even militia modules/fits showed a noticeable improvement in sensor strength. The role bonus now does not make up for the difference, and unlike before, I pretty much only sight my targets visually rather than following them on radar.
Once upon a time, I used to be able to stalk people with this setup... using radar to see which way enemies were facing and going and staying out of sight until I attack, at the risk of having my wimpy scout suit knocked over once I did. Now I pretty much can't do that at all and the fun has been sucked out of this style of gameplay, indo which I'd sunk lots of SP. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
yep, i spent some SP in scanning and profile dampening and it seem it's broken. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Emerald Bellerophon wrote:I tried out the 'Hunter Scout' featured fit, and really enjoyed it, so I made scanning scouts a cornerstone of what I did in Chromosome, then specced into scout suits first for Uprising.
This definitely doesn't work as well as it used to. The first thing is that the scan radius has been leveled across all dropsuits; it used to be higher for scouts than any other, but now all the suits I look at have their radius set to 10m. If I remember, for the old scouts, it was 25m before adding modules, and even militia modules/fits caused a noticeable improvement in sensor strength. The role bonus now does not make up for the difference, and unlike before, I pretty much only sight my targets visually rather than following them on radar.
Once upon a time, I used to be able to stalk people with this setup... using radar to see which way enemies were facing and going and staying out of sight until I attack, at the risk of having my wimpy scout suit knocked over once I tried. I'd also be able to hang back from a group of teammates and highlight groups of enemies for them to attack. Now I pretty much can't do that at all and the fun has been sucked out of this style of gameplay, into which I'd sunk lots of SP. And this is exactly why it's such a big deal for us scouts, man. I mean our biggest advantages are the scanning stuff and the speed. Being a gallente scout without working passive scanning is like a Caldari assault who's shields don't work properly. I mean we can't go toe to toe with assaults but now we are forced to roll the dice cause we can't rely on the radar like we used to.
And let me add that if you spend a lot of skills, and use some modules you can get the scan radius of well over 20 meters which isn't too bad. The problem is that it doesn't seem to work properly. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 23:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
unfortunately the list of things that does not work in uprising is very huge. But now you can use nova knives properly |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
354
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ric Barlom wrote:Kazio De Vihura wrote:Ric Barlom wrote:Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Remember that to be able to "see" someone on your radar, your scan precision must be lower than their signature profile while they are within range of your scan radius.
If anyone of these should be no with tolerance, then the littel scout sneaks up on you and knifes you in the back. Exactly, right man! Now I've got my scout suits already boosted scan precision combined with my advanced precision enhancer and I still cannot pick up anyone in my radar unless I have a direct visual on them. I think there's a problem. They nerf scan range to 5m .... In fact, bro, it's 10 meters. With a gallente scout and proper skills maxed you can get it up to 20 meters without any modules used, like I have. the scouts base before skills was 25m, hell every other suits ranges was 15m... so its been nerf pretty hard. best to go pick up a active scanner if you want to have any kindof radar. |
Delirium Inferno
Edoras Corporation
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
I played scout in Chromosome and I believe it only scans what is in the "cone" directly in front of you, as portrayed on your radar. And the scanner appeared to work in pulses. So it sends out a pulse and if you pick someone up they lightly appear as a blimp for a split second, then fade away until the next pulse.
Now I may have been seeing things or whatever, but that is at least how it appeared to work for me last build. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
275
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sorry for forum spam but let me plug my other feedback thread here, I'd like to see more input from dedicated scouts, even if you think it's a bad idea/needs tweaked/whatever. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
77
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 11:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:I played scout in Chromosome and I believe it only scans what is in the "cone" directly in front of you, as portrayed on your radar. And the scanner appeared to work in pulses. So it sends out a pulse and if you pick someone up they lightly appear as a blimp for a split second, then fade away until the next pulse.
Now I may have been seeing things or whatever, but that is at least how it appeared to work for me last build. Yeah man I know exactly what you're saying that in the last build it seemed like the radar only picked up guys on the "cone" area. This build however, I don't think my radar picks up anyone, anywhere, unless I have a direct visual on them. |
Guinevere Bravo
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
182
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Well my logi proto suit seems to pick people up in buildings and such.
So either you need to upgrade your suit or skills.
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Marc Rime
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 14:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:I played scout in Chromosome and I believe it only scans what is in the "cone" directly in front of you, as portrayed on your radar. And the scanner appeared to work in pulses. True, it seemed to be more effective in that direction, but with maxed skills I used to pick up people beside and even behind me if they got close enough -- even scouts if they hadn't skilled for stealth. Now I get no warning even when there are 3+ mediums breathing down my neck and I doubt *everybody* are wearing profile dampeners (also dropsuit command no longer lowers scan profile so they should be easier to detect now). |
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Appia Vibbia
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
21
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Posted - 2013.05.09 15:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Appia's Skills: Profile Dampening 5, Precision Enhancement 5, Range Amplification 5, Gallente Scout 5. . . on a 10m base scan range becomes a scan radius of 20m. 2 complex range amplifiers increase that to 29m (50%+50%+45%+45%) or more if calculating points works differently. 45 dB Sig Radius. Scout and Dampening get it down to 30 (rounding up). 2 Complex Profile Dampeners get it to 7 (rounding up). (-10%-25%-25%-25%) Scan Precision of 45 dB. 10% from skill. so 41, 20% from 1 complex precision enhancer becomes 32.
So by this, The only people can can pick up my suits would be someone invested in precision with 4 precision enhancers... or Line of Sight.
The new Active Scanners are cool. they straight-out tell you the 3 most important things: Range, Precision, and Angle. We can calculate our range and precision, but they have never released the passive scanner's angle. it should be 360-¦ and less than 120-¦ means it isn't helping.
So the basic Active scanner can't find Light frames. much like heavies, logis and Assaults. the ADV scanners have a precision of 36... still can't see me. The prototypes have a 28, with the most expensive at 15... none of those can find me.
Yet somehow, I was playing a skirmish and a heavy found me. I was watching him, making sure I was always to his backside or at the very least behind cover. He hunted me down like he knew exactly where I was, no dumb luck involved, he knew exactly where to go.
The new "enhanced graphics" took away my ability to snipe. It took away my ability to find targets, light them up with the SR and give tactical advice to my team. The messed up controls and input-lag have made it impossible for me to use my scrambler pistols effectively... So I'm out in the game reduced to 2 Toxin SMGs (because I spec'd into Scanning, Scout, SR, and Scrambler Pistol), with the goal of running around and hacking things in OMS/Skirmish, and taking out any campers as I cause hit-detection problems by jumping around or circling people faster than they can track (which, to be fair, I can't keep up with 100/100 sensitivity either) |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Appia's Skills: Profile Dampening 5, Precision Enhancement 5, Range Amplification 5, Gallente Scout 5. . . on a 10m base scan range becomes a scan radius of 20m. 2 complex range amplifiers increase that to 29m (50%+50%+45%+45%) or more if calculating points works differently. 45 dB Sig Radius. Scout and Dampening get it down to 30 (rounding up). 2 Complex Profile Dampeners get it to 7 (rounding up). (-10%-25%-25%-25%) Scan Precision of 45 dB. 10% from skill. so 41, 20% from 1 complex precision enhancer becomes 32.
So by this, The only people can can pick up my suits would be someone invested in precision with 4 precision enhancers... or Line of Sight.
The new Active Scanners are cool. they straight-out tell you the 3 most important things: Range, Precision, and Angle. We can calculate our range and precision, but they have never released the passive scanner's angle. it should be 360-¦ and less than 120-¦ means it isn't helping.
So the basic Active scanner can't find Light frames. much like heavies, logis and Assaults. the ADV scanners have a precision of 36... still can't see me. The prototypes have a 28, with the most expensive at 15... none of those can find me.
Yet somehow, I was playing a skirmish and a heavy found me. I was watching him, making sure I was always to his backside or at the very least behind cover. He hunted me down like he knew exactly where I was, no dumb luck involved, he knew exactly where to go.
The new "enhanced graphics" took away my ability to snipe. It took away my ability to find targets, light them up with the SR and give tactical advice to my team. The messed up controls and input-lag have made it impossible for me to use my scrambler pistols effectively... So I'm out in the game reduced to 2 Toxin SMGs (because I spec'd into Scanning, Scout, SR, and Scrambler Pistol), with the goal of running around and hacking things in OMS/Skirmish, and taking out any campers as I cause hit-detection problems by jumping around or circling people faster than they can track (which, to be fair, I can't keep up with 100/100 sensitivity either) Thanks for the feedback, bro, and let me be the first one to tell you that I feel your pain. I've also invested into pretty much all of those scanning related skills and that's a lot of skill points right there and it seems like there's a lot of problems with this mechanic. Now let me ask you a question: Can you detect people with your radar, inside your radius, behind walls or hills if you, or someone else, don't have a direct visual on them? Because I can't, and I know my precision is lower than their profile. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Guinevere Bravo wrote:Well my logi proto suit seems to pick people up in buildings and such.
So either you need to upgrade your suit or skills.
Thanks for the feedback, man, and let me ask you a few questions just to clarify things out. First of all you're talking about passive scanning, right? Not active. Also are you sure that when you have detected those people through walls that no one else is looking at them? I'd also like to know what kind of skills/modules you have that are related to scanning. Thanks man. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
78
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Delirium Inferno wrote:I played scout in Chromosome and I believe it only scans what is in the "cone" directly in front of you, as portrayed on your radar. And the scanner appeared to work in pulses. True, it seemed to be more effective in that direction, but with maxed skills I used to pick up people beside and even behind me if they got close enough -- even scouts if they hadn't skilled for stealth. Now I get no warning even when there are 3+ mediums breathing down my neck and I doubt *everybody* are wearing profile dampeners (also dropsuit command no longer lowers scan profile so they should be easier to detect now). Hey, Marc, I know how you feel. I have no clue if someone's behind me, but I also have no clue if someone's behind a wall just a few meters away from me and directly in front of me. You mentioned that you cannot detect anyone that's outside of the "cone", well let me ask you this: Can you detect people who are inside of the cone but hidden behind something? |
Marc Rime
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 21:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ric Barlom wrote:Hey, Marc, I know how you feel. I have no clue if someone's behind me, but I also have no clue if someone's behind a wall just a few meters away from me and directly in front of me. You mentioned that you cannot detect anyone that's outside of the "cone", well let me ask you this: Can you detect people who are inside of the cone but hidden behind something? Couldn't really say with the gimped range we have now. I know it has failed to pick up enemies until I turned a corner and found myself face to face with them (again, not other scouts). They *should* have been within my scanner range before I saw them, and unless the scanner angle is extremely narrow they should have been within the scanner field too.
Also, it's not like I know for certain that the scanner really was more efficient in the direction you were facing back in Chromosome, or how wide the angle was if that was the case... or what, other than the range, was changed in Uprising :P.
Sometimes enemies have (briefly) remained visible on the scanner even after they've moved behind cover. No idea if it was because someone else on my team had them in their LoS for a second or two longer, the scanner was just laggy or if it was actually tracking them until they got out of its very limited range... |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
80
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Ric Barlom wrote:Hey, Marc, I know how you feel. I have no clue if someone's behind me, but I also have no clue if someone's behind a wall just a few meters away from me and directly in front of me. You mentioned that you cannot detect anyone that's outside of the "cone", well let me ask you this: Can you detect people who are inside of the cone but hidden behind something? Couldn't really say with the gimped range we have now. I know it has failed to pick up enemies until I turned a corner and found myself face to face with them (again, not other scouts). They *should* have been within my scanner range before I saw them, and unless the scanner angle is extremely narrow they should have been within the scanner field too. Also, it's not like I know for certain that the scanner really was more efficient in the direction you were facing back in Chromosome, or how wide the angle was if that was the case... or what, other than the range, was changed in Uprising :P. Sometimes enemies have (briefly) remained visible on the scanner even after they've moved behind cover. No idea if it was because someone else on my team had them in their LoS for a second or two longer, the scanner was just laggy or if it was actually tracking them until they got out of its very limited range... So seems like it's not working for you either. I can tell you that I've got 20+ meter radius and I still can't pick anything in my radar. Often times I turn a corner and I see 3 guys right in front of me well inside that 20 meter radius, none of them wearing scout suits or even high level suits so I should be able to detect them.
Then again most of us don't really know exactly how the scanning mechanics should work so that's another problem. I'd appreciate someone from CCP comment on this whole scanning thing. Is this an issue you guys are aware of? Or are we just doing it wrong? |
XxGhazbaranxX
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 11:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Passive scans seems broken.
I've skilled it to no apparent effect. Same thing happened here, No matter if i have precision mods and distance mods just for the hell of testing the mechanic it just doesn't pick people up how it's supposed to.
CCP should look into it.
It's no about precision or scan radius it just ain't working till you get shot. |
Cyzad4
Blackfish Corp.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
I use advanced dampeners and enhancers, and yeah scanning is a mess. Been a few times when I've seen guys at maybe 200 yds and still no marker on them. I put up the "scan range" or whatever it's called and that seemed to help but... |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Experimented some more with the active scanners today. My conclusion was that active scanners are also broken. Even though they will light all reds up temporarily, the markers usually go away within a second if no blues are looking directly at them. Certainly you do not get the 5-8 seconds of target spotting time claimed in the item description. I assume this is probably the same issue or a closely related one. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
So I've been running some more testing, trying out crazy scan fittings and stuff and I still can't see to pick up ANYONE in my radar with my passive scanners. The problem is that it's kind of hard thing to test, guys, but at this point I definitely think there's some kind of bug involved here. Again, CCP, some reply would be appreciated.
As a side note, I've been talking with some people and some of them tell me that their passive scanners work just fine so I don't know what's going on. They were both minmataar scouts. Anyone else who has some positive or negative experiences with the passive scanners? |
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