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Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 16:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:A constructive discussion is always good.
Skytt (I think it was) did some math and it will take more than 13 years to max the current skill tree (well the one in Uprising that is) with the current SP system/cap without any booster. The skill tree will be expanded heavily in the future with a lot more skills, like the remaining racial suits/vehicles and new suits/vehicles among other things. It will also take 14 weeks just to get a specialised Prototype suit without any booster. 14 weeks for just the suit and no other skills.
Tbh I think that's too much. Fully specialising in just one role will probably take about 6 months without any boosters. In that case I think it will be way too long for a new player to be even somewhat competitive.
Even after the first 6 months where the new player would be fully specialised, would he then be competitive with a veteran player? I don't think so. The veteran player will be fully specialised in several roles, like Assault, AV and Scout for example. Who would pick the new player for a battle over the veteran when you in size limited matches need to have all or almost all of the players in a match to be able to switch roles in the middle of the battle?
Edit: I also recall a while back someone from CCP in IRC saying about 3 weeks to get a Prototype suit would be great.
The time frame to get proto in this game are also being balanced next to the idea that there will be more specialization, much like that in EVE. Th point that you brought up as to the comment from a DEV about proto in 3 weeks being reasonable seems unreasonable, especially if you want to maintain a balanced and growing player base that will (if it is not already) casual. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
IRuby Heart wrote:Right now I think the problem is that we do need longevity in the game and a sense of exclusiveness with the Protosuits. CCP just went about the worst way of doing it.
I would have rather them up the SP cost of Specialized suits and left our core skills exactly the same. 5x SP for Electronics and Engineering is killer, the fact that right now with these skills maxed out I can't fit everything I want on a Protosuit makes this absurd, this is with the addition of other CPU/PG lowering skills mind you. Now Imagine how bad this will be for newer players. Unless CCP is trying to limit us to only Standard and Advanced gear as much as possible, I don't see any reason why this change had to be made.
On top of that the SP sink in specialized suits yield hardly any worthwhile benefits besides the Racial bonuses. That is the worst type of SP sink. (Still waiting on Details of Extra Slots)
The reason, so not everybody will be able to completely stretch the limits of the suits if what you want is the immediate satisfaction of proto. Then they will have to deal with the fact that NO ONE can have their cake and eat it too.
Get over it, my dad would always tell me, "Shite in one hand, and wish in the other. See which one gets filled up first."
OH the wise words one should live by. |
Lycuo
On The Brink CRONOS.
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
So here's my 2 cents take it or leave it:
This game is not targeting the casual FPSer like the whining little kids that play CoD or god bless them the ex armed forces that want to relive their strategy based lives in Battlefield.
This game is targeting those FPSers that are always dedicated to their game. The ones that if possible eventually attempt to become MLG of some sort and want to learn the ins and outs of every map gun game type there is.
To do this, CCP has implemented said "Sp sink" that gives the dedicated player a reason to continue playing through each and every patch that they come up with. This game is meant to not be perfected in the first month of playing like you can do with CoD. This game is also meant to challenge your brain a little.
In my opinion this game has one extra bonus that no other FPS has ever had. It takes a bit of smarts to play this game. Not only the obvious in a challenging skill tree and knowing where to spec into for your gameplay type, but the strategies when in fights, the know how on how to survive even though you might be up against better players, or even know how to set ur squad up for success. All other FPS games have minimal, at best, amounts of ways to scheme and fight a battle. CoD has tac inserts and rushing versus defending versus somewhere in the middle of that. Battlefield has basic military strategies (which are even less now without a commander like in Bf2) and even then its more about K/D than winning the war.
This being said i don't know how the game will be perceived by others and it might lose some of the lesser dedicated members due to the expansiveness being derived from The Uprising expansion. Personally i am happy about this and can't wait to see the battles between long lasting and hard working corps and alliances of another 6th of a planet in the expansive universe known as Eve.
btw hi Jenza congrats and can't wait to catch up with u in Cronos. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:34:00 -
[34] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:Heya peeps,
Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context.
Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view.
"SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype.
When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind.
If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :)
It takes approximately 2.5 million SP to get into a Proto suit. If you include a proto weapon its 3.1 million, "core shield skills" add another 1.2 million adding up to 4.3 million SP. So lets round that up to 5 million SP (leaving 700,000 SP for deviations in Specialization, or for other odds and ends like sidearms ect.....). 5 million SP to run ONE specific suit/fitting. Sure some of the skills can be applied to other suits but for arguments sake it takes about 5 million SP until I would consider a person running full proto......
One week with Active AND passive boosters = 500k SP (roughly). That's a 7 day period. Now...... if its 5 million SP to get into your first "All proto suit" that would take approximately..... 10 weeks...... two and a half months. From then on will say it takes 3.1 million SP to fully proto into other suits (assuming you get another proto weapon to go with the new suit).
It takes 10 Weeks to start from Zero and get to a "full proto" suit and from then on it goes into 6 week intervals for you to unlock new "full proto suits" The build they had now means that it would have taken approximately....... 25 weeks or..... about half a year to fully unlock every proto suit and have a "full proto fit" with it. This upcoming build is (in the words of IWS) adding another 40 something Drop Suits. Atleast 5 of which should be proto level. Using the same system we have now would add another 6 months to the progression....... adding up to a year. And that's saying that the person in question whos skilling for them NEVER skilled into 1.) vehicles, or 2.) anything that isn't a weapon or shield module.......
Im almost positive CCP will be adding twice as many suits in the coming 6 months along with many many more items/weapons/vehicles. In short, I don't think a 800k SP requirement increase on All Proto level suits was really necessary as if CCP focused on putting more content out they wouldn't have to worry about people running out of things to skill into. This new "SP sink" they put in really just annoys me. I had been planning on putting my points into two proto suits and having a weapon to go into each, but now im going to have to put ALL of the 10 million SP I have into one suit because otherwise it wont work as well as the suit I have now which has maybe 6 million in it. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:jenza aranda wrote:Heya peeps,
Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context.
Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view.
"SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype.
When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind.
If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :) It takes approximately 2.5 million SP to get into a Proto suit. If you include a proto weapon its 3.1 million, "core shield skills" add another 1.2 million adding up to 4.3 million SP. So lets round that up to 5 million SP (leaving 700,000 SP for deviations in Specialization, or for other odds and ends like sidearms ect.....). 5 million SP to run ONE specific suit/fitting. Sure some of the skills can be applied to other suits but for arguments sake it takes about 5 million SP until I would consider a person running full proto...... One week with Active AND passive boosters = 500k SP (roughly). That's a 7 day period. Now...... if its 5 million SP to get into your first "All proto suit" that would take approximately..... 10 weeks...... two and a half months. From then on will say it takes 3.1 million SP to fully proto into other suits (assuming you get another proto weapon to go with the new suit). It takes 10 Weeks to start from Zero and get to a "full proto" suit and from then on it goes into 6 week intervals for you to unlock new "full proto suits" The build they had now means that it would have taken approximately....... 25 weeks or..... about half a year to fully unlock every proto suit and have a "full proto fit" with it. This upcoming build is (in the words of IWS) adding another 40 something Drop Suits. Atleast 5 of which should be proto level. Using the same system we have now would add another 6 months to the progression....... adding up to a year. And that's saying that the person in question whos skilling for them NEVER skilled into 1.) vehicles, or 2.) anything that isn't a weapon or shield module....... Im almost positive CCP will be adding twice as many suits in the coming 6 months along with many many more items/weapons/vehicles. In short, I don't think a 800k SP requirement increase on All Proto level suits was really necessary as if CCP focused on putting more content out they wouldn't have to worry about people running out of things to skill into. This new "SP sink" they put in really just annoys me. I had been planning on putting my points into two proto suits and having a weapon to go into each, but now im going to have to put ALL of the 10 million SP I have into one suit because otherwise it wont work as well as the suit I have now which has maybe 6 million in it.
Oh the price of choices and the pains that come with a life centered around historically based comparative understandings.
maybe one day human beings will be able to get past this to some degree, OR maybe not.
|
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1422
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:Heya peeps,
Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context.
Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view.
"SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype.
When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind.
If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :)
So you stand by your words, but you don't want to be criticized for them. Sorry it doesn't work that way. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2808
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 17:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
I just want to say that I agree that it should take longer to get into full prototype fits of any kind. It's not a grind if you actually enjoy the game. If you don't enjoy it, let your passive SP build up and just take a break. This game NEEDS to be about the future, and as such, we simply cannot have small skill trees.
As time goes on and more and more equipment and variants are added, things will really start coming into focus. |
Protoman Is God
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:jenza aranda wrote:Heya peeps,
Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context.
Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view.
"SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype.
When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind.
If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :) So you stand by your words, but you don't want to be criticized for them. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
lol |
Zahle Undt
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
If I may play amature analyst here, the negative reaction for this "SP sink" comes from two places, both the emotional and the logical (at least for me).
The emotional reaction is that no one ever likes to have something valued, and the SP sink while perfectly logical from various standpoints is a devaluing of one of the most valuable commodities one works for in this game...SP. Devaluing of a cuurency is the sort of thing that sends economies into spiral so the immediate gut reaction of being upset over somthing one has "worked" for like SP is simply to be expected.
Now from the logical stand point here is where I have a bit of a problem with these apparent sinks. From what information we have (which is certainly not full information), those of us who have been playing since last wipe and likely even open beta will be able to get into standard fits of our chosen battlefield role assault, heavy, scout, or logi. However, IF a starting character cannot immediately be at the beginning teir of their battlefield role, I think CCP has violated rule #1 of an MMO or in this case an MMO/FPS hybrid the ability to play your class right away. Instead they favor the scheme of the multiplayer FPS where you are a bland soldier like everyone else on your team and the other team except for what weapon you're rolling with.
If I just picked this game up on release and all I couldn't get into my logistifcs role right away or if I couldn't try a couple different types of weapons, I wouldn't be motivated to put the month grind in to get the Sp necessary to do those things. Especially when the only way to grind that SP would be getting my butt kicked in pub matches against the likes of us with several million Sp already up on you. Being mindful of keeping your player base wanting to play your game is wise, but you have to build your player base up first. To me this SP sink is almost CCPs way of saying that they aren't going to have maps, PvE, or other interesting new content that they forshadowed at fanfest for quite sometime so they have to resort to making keep grinding Sp for SP sake.
But honestly I can't believe CCP is releasing in 9 days missing the meaningful link to EVE either so in comparrison to that what's a little SP sink. |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
271
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
i feel like i need to chime in now....
1). Getting a basic proto suit in uprising is actually easier ...its a 6x multi instead of an 8x. So it went from a 2.4M SP skill to about a 1.8M SP skill.
2). CPU & PG skills being 5x is RIDICULOUS. You are talking ~3M combined SP for a NEEDED skill for anything past T1 suits. So it went from a 620kSP combined skill to 3M, real smart there CCP.
3). New players and people w/ say 8M SP and below may be royally screwed. Their SP reallocation will be much tighter and detrimental to how they currently run their skills tree. If dont consider racial speccing, you are looking at ~5M SP for a basic proto suit w/ max CPU&PG skills.
4). Basic core skills across the board have been increase, meaning more SP to use complex equipment (pending if needed). Ex is shield extenders went from a 2x to 3x; and changed its passive skill which now will require all shield tanked suits to run a CPU upgrade b/c of lack of CPU (as for assault suits the will be current Vk.0 stats compared to Vk.1 using now); as the passive skill brought CPU costs from 54 down to 47. So unless CPU costs were changed CCP crutch-ed all assault suits on CPU even more. As even lowering your weapons fitting req (as we dont know if its cpu or pg) wont be as helpful b/c it is now a 6x skill (moved from a 2x).
5). AR's & SMG's are the most SP intensive weapons b/c of the "need" to get SS skill
6). All weapon accessory skills are more time consuming and possibly not worth the SP investment anymore based lv2 for a few months
7). Entire game has become a sink hole, be it SP or ISK . Haven't played yet, but by looks it seems like the enjoyment might of fully been taken out of the game now for a 24/7 constant grind for ISK & SP. |
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Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
1381
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Take away proto gear from some people and it's like taking a bottle away from babies.
All you get is tears |
ZiwZih
The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
Thanks to all the people posting here -- good read so far!
If anything, a lot of passion around DUST 514... Good enough for me. |
Protoman Is God
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
The SP sink on core skills is just stupid and needs to go.
|
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1423
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
The end goal should be logarithmic growth. Instead we seem to be getting a fractional exponential growth. Sure the "middle" looks about the same, but the beginning is steeper, and the tail doesn't flatten out as smoothly. |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote: Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype.
Could not disagree more.
This is an FPS. FPS skill should rule not how much time you have been here or how well you manage your dropsuit configuration.
How long it takes you to get the best gear should be based on how well you do in the game. People who win get the money to buy the gear people who do not do not....to be honest they should nerf the hell out of high end gear (or buff the hell out of low end gear) anyway to avoid crappy players beating better players simply because the crappy player has been here longer.
Skill points and leveling should also be eliminated....perhaps only being used for customization (suit paint, gun sites, etc) rather then giving buffs.
Just because Dust is an MMO does not mean they have to make it into a leveling RPG.
Yes i know all this stuff came from Eve...but in EvE that IS the game....with dust we have real time first person combat as the game...why pile on this crappy RPG layer on top of what is supposed to be a AAA fps experience? |
Sigberct Amni
Defensores Doctrina
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
There's a lot of arguments about what audience they are targeting, but I haven't heard the most obvious one. It's the one that has actually been mentioned by the Sr. Producer, David I think his name was. Some interview like 4 months ago.
The target audience is those who love everything EVE is: the drama, the lore, the sandbox, the human element, (read: cesspool) etc. but hate actually playing EVE. The casual slant is to try to draw in your typical console FPS'er and hopefully trap them in the whirlwind of drama that makes up New Eden.
Whether or not this is a good strategy... well. EVE just celebrated it's 10 year anni. They might be doing something right.
All the time sinks are a simple business move. Give the player a choice, spend his time on grinding out SP for that new shiny or spend his five bucks on getting it sooner. My opinion of the SP layout is that it's A-OK. We were jumping into sets of the top tier stuff in 3-4 months, now it might be an extra month on top. That's as a free player. I don't see an issue with this at all. |
Tok'Ra Operative
Tok'Ra.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
Just wanted to bump anything that is labled "mature" :) I endorse mature gaming! |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lycuo wrote:So here's my 2 cents take it or leave it:
This game is not targeting the casual FPSer like the whining little kids that play CoD or god bless them the ex armed forces that want to relive their strategy based lives in Battlefield.
This game is targeting those FPSers that are always dedicated to their game. The ones that if possible eventually attempt to become MLG of some sort and want to learn the ins and outs of every map gun game type there is.
To do this, CCP has implemented said "Sp sink" that gives the dedicated player a reason to continue playing through each and every patch that they come up with. This game is meant to not be perfected in the first month of playing like you can do with CoD. This game is also meant to challenge your brain a little.
In my opinion this game has one extra bonus that no other FPS has ever had. It takes a bit of smarts to play this game. Not only the obvious in a challenging skill tree and knowing where to spec into for your gameplay type, but the strategies when in fights, the know how on how to survive even though you might be up against better players, or even know how to set ur squad up for success. All other FPS games have minimal, at best, amounts of ways to scheme and fight a battle. CoD has tac inserts and rushing versus defending versus somewhere in the middle of that. Battlefield has basic military strategies (which are even less now without a commander like in Bf2) and even then its more about K/D than winning the war.
This being said i don't know how the game will be perceived by others and it might lose some of the lesser dedicated members due to the expansiveness being derived from The Uprising expansion. Personally i am happy about this and can't wait to see the battles between long lasting and hard working corps and alliances of another 6th of a planet in the expansive universe known as Eve.
btw hi Jenza congrats and can't wait to catch up with u in Cronos.
Enough said! I've got to agree with my corp mate Lycuo here.
|
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sigberct Amni wrote:
All the time sinks are a simple business move. Give the player a choice, spend his time on grinding out SP for that new shiny or spend his five bucks on getting it sooner. My opinion of the SP layout is that it's A-OK. We were jumping into sets of the top tier stuff in 3-4 months, now it might be an extra month on top. That's as a free player. I don't see an issue with this at all.
Dust already has plenty of time sinks...ISK, territory, aesthetic customization, trophies etc..
No reason those carrots have to give buffs to players...
Hell Dayz, minecraft, CoD, BF3, Planetside, Halo, and on and on and on do not give leveling buffs and they do just fine pulling players into the game.
Good players just starting out getting face stomped by terrible players with high SP and 'leet" gear does the exact opposite of pulling new players into the game....it pushes them away.
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Geth Massredux
Defensores Doctrina
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
Its funny how at the beginning CCP said it would take you 7years to learn all the skills. If you played since the last reset, you should realize it takes less then a year to obtain all the skills. And we have been playing for 3-4 months and I have about looks like 75% of all the skills, let it be infantry or vehicle. Give me 2-3 or maybe 4months with passive and active boosters I will be done...
What happen to the 7years of skills..... Tsk Tsk Tsk |
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hooc order
Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Geth Massredux wrote:
What happen to the 7years of skills.....
I am hoping it went the direction of the dodo bird. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
734
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry
You either don't know what "practically" means or you don't play this game. There's very few people running around in full proto gear. I see maybe 4-6 people with a black suit in the war barge, and even fewer than that in-game. Weapons that are killing people are usually standard/militia or advanced. Hell, remember when I think it was nothin who gave us those stats in IRC on most kills per weapon type (if you were around for that)? Pretty sure #1 was GEK (hint: That's not a proto level weapon).
The fact that this is your perception is very unsettling for you being in a position to influence CCP's direction.
Really? Everyone in full proto? Sigh... |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1425
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:jenza aranda wrote:Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry You either don't know what "practically" means or you don't play this game. There's very few people running around in full proto gear. I see maybe 4-6 people with a black suit in the war barge, and even fewer than that in-game. Weapons that are killing people are usually standard/militia or advanced. Hell, remember when I think it was nothin who gave us those stats in IRC on most kills per weapon type (if you were around for that)? Pretty sure #1 was GEK (hint: That's not a proto level weapon). The fact that this is your perception is very unsettling for you being in a position to influence CCP's direction. Really? Everyone in full proto? Sigh...
Furthermore, we are 4 months into a build, and people are just now starting to get their first specialization in a satisfactory place. If that means DUST skill queue doesn't last 10 years, they should focus on content, not on making us grind more for the same bread crumbs. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1425
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Also, if you want a very detailed discussion on the skill system, look no further than here -
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=71470&find=unread
You should add your thoughts to that thread. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink CRONOS.
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
So I've been reading through to the whole thread, guys, and you know what, man, I didn't really want to respond... But Jesus Christ! Enough is enough! I've had it with the sinks! I've had it with the business moves! And I've had it with the hypocrisy! I mean my God, suddenly the whole community is so God damn concerned about the new player experience after AFKing their asses off in the MCC! Yeah, I said it. Now that I've got that out of the way let me address a few issues in this response, guys.
Let's talk about sinks a little bit cause that seems to be the buzzword of the week. Some people say Dust 514 has too many time sinks... No **** Sherlock! It's a video game, it IS a time sink for crying out loud! The new specialist suits being SP sinks which make new player experience worse cause they can't compete? Well let me be the first one tell you that the differences between the generic suits vs the specialist suits are so small that a guy with a generic suit has very good chances at beating the specialist, no question about that. Well someone even said that it's not worth putting skills into the specialist suits. Well then don't put your skills there then! It's not rocket science, guys.
Now the this thing cracks me up a little bit but I've seen it float around here in the forums quite a bit so I'm gonna say something about it but I'll be very brief. What I'm talking about here is a lot of people telling me "Ric, this whole SP sink thing is a business move, can't you see it?!?!" It's a video game, genius! What do you think, that these guys live with our good will and encouragement? Think not! More likely giving them cancer as we speak. |
IRuby Heart
DIOS EX.
658
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:i feel like i need to chime in now....
1). Getting a basic proto suit in uprising is actually easier ...its a 6x multi instead of an 8x. So it went from a 2.4M SP skill to about a 1.8M SP skill.
2). CPU & PG skills being 5x is RIDICULOUS. You are talking ~3M combined SP for a NEEDED skill for anything past T1 suits. So it went from a 620kSP combined skill to 3M, real smart there CCP.
3). New players and people w/ say 8M SP and below may be royally screwed. Their SP reallocation will be much tighter and detrimental to how they currently run their skills tree. If dont consider racial speccing, you are looking at ~5M SP for a basic proto suit w/ max CPU&PG skills.
4). Basic core skills across the board have been increase, meaning more SP to use complex equipment (pending if needed). Ex is shield extenders went from a 2x to 3x; and changed its passive skill which now will require all shield tanked suits to run a CPU upgrade b/c of lack of CPU (as for assault suits the will be current Vk.0 stats compared to Vk.1 using now); as the passive skill brought CPU costs from 54 down to 47. So unless CPU costs were changed CCP crutch-ed all assault suits on CPU even more. As even lowering your weapons fitting req (as we dont know if its cpu or pg) wont be as helpful b/c it is now a 6x skill (moved from a 2x).
5). AR's & SMG's are the most SP intensive weapons b/c of the "need" to get SS skill
6). All weapon accessory skills are more time consuming and possibly not worth the SP investment anymore based lv2 for a few months
7). Entire game has become a sink hole, be it SP or ISK . Haven't played yet, but by looks it seems like the enjoyment might of fully been taken out of the game now for a 24/7 constant grind for ISK & SP.
+1 |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
* Dropsuit Command skills first unlock basic non-role frames before unlocking role-specific skills
Does that mean that you may not be required to skill the frame all the way to proto before unlocking the desired specialized suit or does that mean you will have to eg. unlock DC Lv5 plus Light Frame Lv5 to begin skilling Scout |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
724
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
I think DUST could learn a bit from Planetside 2 here, actually.
PS2 has a "cert" system similar to SP in DUST where in game performance for various contributions earn you cert points, which are then spent to unlock weapons, gear, suit upgrades, abilities, vehicle equipment, etc.
You earn individual certs very fast, say, one cert every 2-3 kills for example if you are just killing. But the average cost of an unlock runs from 250-1000 certs with minor things likr attachments for guns running 50-200 certs.
In PS2, you can unlock things fairly fast. If I grind for a a week or two I can acquire a new unlock very fast. This always keeps a nice shiny in sight to work for and gives a sense of progression. However, unlocking EVERYTHING would take a verrrryyy long time because of the sheer amount of upgrades and unlocks available.
See, thats how DUST should be. The BREADTH of it should make it complex and a time sink, not the DEPTH of it. Would you rather spend 20 hours unlocking 5 things or 20 hours unlocking 50 things? Why, the second option, of course.
If CCP would be better at releasing a huge amount of content and options to spend SP on, you wouldn't have to worry about someone maxing all skills because there are too many.
I firmly believe CCP should follow the PS2 model in this regards and stop making an artificial time sink, and intsead make a veritable flood of content instead.
If you have to train one x10 skill or ten x1 skills, the x1 skills are more fun because you feel progression and are always thrown a bone, keeping something constantly within reach. The current system takes the carrot on the stick and warps it to another district...
This would require a lot of work from CCP but I think it would be worth it and more enjoyable for everyone. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1430
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:I think DUST could learn a bit from Planetside 2 here, actually.
PS2 has a "cert" system similar to SP in DUST where in game performance for various contributions earn you cert points, which are then spent to unlock weapons, gear, suit upgrades, abilities, vehicle equipment, etc.
You earn individual certs very fast, say, one cert every 2-3 kills for example if you are just killing. But the average cost of an unlock runs from 250-1000 certs with minor things likr attachments for guns running 50-200 certs.
In PS2, you can unlock things fairly fast. If I grind for a a week or two I can acquire a new unlock very fast. This always keeps a nice shiny in sight to work for and gives a sense of progression. However, unlocking EVERYTHING would take a verrrryyy long time because of the sheer amount of upgrades and unlocks available.
See, thats how DUST should be. The BREADTH of it should make it complex and a time sink, not the DEPTH of it. Would you rather spend 20 hours unlocking 5 things or 20 hours unlocking 50 things? Why, the second option, of course.
If CCP would be better at releasing a huge amount of content and options to spend SP on, you wouldn't have to worry about someone maxing all skills because there are too many.
I firmly believe CCP should follow the PS2 model in this regards and stop making an artificial time sink, and intsead make a veritable flood of content instead.
If you have to train one x10 skill or ten x1 skills, the x1 skills are more fun because you feel progression and are always thrown a bone, keeping something constantly within reach. The current system takes the carrot on the stick and warps it to another district...
This would require a lot of work from CCP but I think it would be worth it and more enjoyable for everyone.
Are you suggesting CCP should actually provide us with more content if they want more money from us? Blasphemy! |
Free Beers
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1430
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:18:00 -
[60] - Quote
IRuby Heart wrote:Berserker007 wrote:i feel like i need to chime in now....
1). Getting a basic proto suit in uprising is actually easier ...its a 6x multi instead of an 8x. So it went from a 2.4M SP skill to about a 1.8M SP skill.
2). CPU & PG skills being 5x is RIDICULOUS. You are talking ~3M combined SP for a NEEDED skill for anything past T1 suits. So it went from a 620kSP combined skill to 3M, real smart there CCP.
3). New players and people w/ say 8M SP and below may be royally screwed. Their SP reallocation will be much tighter and detrimental to how they currently run their skills tree. If dont consider racial speccing, you are looking at ~5M SP for a basic proto suit w/ max CPU&PG skills.
4). Basic core skills across the board have been increase, meaning more SP to use complex equipment (pending if needed). Ex is shield extenders went from a 2x to 3x; and changed its passive skill which now will require all shield tanked suits to run a CPU upgrade b/c of lack of CPU (as for assault suits the will be current Vk.0 stats compared to Vk.1 using now); as the passive skill brought CPU costs from 54 down to 47. So unless CPU costs were changed CCP crutch-ed all assault suits on CPU even more. As even lowering your weapons fitting req (as we dont know if its cpu or pg) wont be as helpful b/c it is now a 6x skill (moved from a 2x).
5). AR's & SMG's are the most SP intensive weapons b/c of the "need" to get SS skill
6). All weapon accessory skills are more time consuming and possibly not worth the SP investment anymore based lv2 for a few months
7). Entire game has become a sink hole, be it SP or ISK . Haven't played yet, but by looks it seems like the enjoyment might of fully been taken out of the game now for a 24/7 constant grind for ISK & SP. +1
-1 in regard to point 1 because zerk is incorrect. What he calls proto suits at 1.8 million dont have proto level stats that we are used today.
CCP simply stretched the suits to 2 skills instead of 1. The 1.8 mill protos are A series in disguise. While the 3.4 mill proto suits are more similar to chrom build protos with just the addition of role bonus. Compare the current minmatar logi prot to the 5 mill sp proto suit and you just get a new role bonus.
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