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jenza aranda BetaMax. CRONOS. 1303	Posted - 2013.05.05 12:53:00 - [1] - Quote Heya peeps, Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context. Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view. "SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype. When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind. If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :)
fell and died Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.05.05 12:55:00 - [2] - Quote Getting into a proper Basic proto won't take much longer - if at all - than it does right now.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Orion Empire 41	Posted - 2013.05.05 12:58:00 - [3] - Quote It is one thing to make Prototype gear harder to get to but it is another thing entirely to make basic skills like the increase of CPU/PG increased to 5X from 1X. Will definitely make things painful for the first month or two. Be well.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 47	Posted - 2013.05.05 12:58:00 - [4] - Quote The thing is, people are assuming the specialisations are what we have now, so they think we're getting jacked by needing to spend more sp to get the same stuff, but the basic suits are more akin to what we have now, which will actually be easier to get than what we have. I say we should wait, try things out, then criticise.
fell and died Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:03:00 - [5] - Quote Spademan wrote: The thing is, people are assuming the specialisations are what we have now, so they think we're getting jacked by needing to spend more sp to get the same stuff, but the basic suits are more akin to what we have now, which will actually be easier to get than what we have. I say we should wait, try things out, then criticise. Do you even have an idea how long it will take to get into a proper Logi suit?! Sure Basic and Assault suits seem to be mostly identical. But Basics are vastly different from Logi suits and making people sink so damn many SP into suit skills just so they can be a Logi feels a bit... unreasonable.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 528	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:04:00 - [6] - Quote A constructive discussion is always good. Skytt (I think it was) did some math and it will take more than 13 years to max the current skill tree (well the one in Uprising that is) with the current SP system/cap without any booster. The skill tree will be expanded heavily in the future with a lot more skills, like the remaining racial suits/vehicles and new suits/vehicles among other things. It will also take 14 weeks just to get a specialised Prototype suit without any booster. 14 weeks for just the suit and no other skills. Tbh I think that's too much. Fully specialising in just one role will probably take about 6 months without any boosters. In that case I think it will be way too long for a new player to be even somewhat competitive. Even after the first 6 months where the new player would be fully specialised, would he then be competitive with a veteran player? I don't think so. The veteran player will be fully specialised in several roles, like Assault, AV and Scout for example. Who would pick the new player for a battle over the veteran when you in size limited matches need to have all or almost all of the players in a match to be able to switch roles in the middle of the battle?
DeeJay One BetaMax. CRONOS. 25	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:05:00 - [7] - Quote fell and died wrote: Spademan wrote: The thing is, people are assuming the specialisations are what we have now, so they think we're getting jacked by needing to spend more sp to get the same stuff, but the basic suits are more akin to what we have now, which will actually be easier to get than what we have. I say we should wait, try things out, then criticise. Do you even have an idea how long it will take to get into a proper Logi suit?! Sure Basic and Assault suits seem to be mostly identical. But Basics are vastly different from Logi suits and making people sink so damn many SP into suit skills just so they can be a Logi feels a bit... unreasonable. Let me say that dreaded word: BETA. I had fun testing upper tier suits (as of tomorrow), now we have to adapt ;)
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 47	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:07:00 - [8] - Quote fell and died wrote: Spademan wrote: The thing is, people are assuming the specialisations are what we have now, so they think we're getting jacked by needing to spend more sp to get the same stuff, but the basic suits are more akin to what we have now, which will actually be easier to get than what we have. I say we should wait, try things out, then criticise. Do you even have an idea how long it will take to get into a proper Logi suit?! Sure Basic and Assault suits seem to be mostly identical. But Basics are vastly different from Logi suits and making people sink so damn many SP into suit skills just so they can be a Logi feels a bit... unreasonable. I know, it'll take longer, we dont know the exact differences between basic and specialisations. Lets wait and see what happens, then criticise.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 55	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:10:00 - [9] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: Heya peeps, Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context. Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view. "SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype. When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind. If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :) Jenza, So you believe people, by that I mean FPS players will stick with this game for 5 yrs? You know we aren't the more patient type. Or do you think It'll be like EVE where they come and go and later come back? For the latter, there has to be some real big incentive for that. Considering all the new FPS that will be out at that time. I DON'T KNOW MYSELF, FOR MYSELF IF I'LL BE HERE THAT LONG. Guess tho it'll be fun finding out.
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:12:00 - [10] - Quote fell and died wrote: Spademan wrote: The thing is, people are assuming the specialisations are what we have now, so they think we're getting jacked by needing to spend more sp to get the same stuff, but the basic suits are more akin to what we have now, which will actually be easier to get than what we have. I say we should wait, try things out, then criticise. Do you even have an idea how long it will take to get into a proper Logi suit?! Sure Basic and Assault suits seem to be mostly identical. But Basics are vastly different from Logi suits and making people sink so damn many SP into suit skills just so they can be a Logi feels a bit... unreasonable. I can see your point from the amount of tech you need to upgrade. But as a scout I feel like I have the same problem. Both my biotics and all three of my EWAR skill have been increased to 3x. So that's five skills at about 900,000 SP each to get to level 5, not counting the parent skills to get there. So just shy of 5mil to be the best I can be at running and hiding. Without a weapon or suit or hacking or anything else. It's going to be a fine line to walk, choosing which skills to specialize in fully, which to leave at 2 or 3, and which to abandon. I also feel like this is a highly unforgiving model. 10-15 mil for a worthwhile build means that you can't make mistakes or try something new. I really have to be sure now that I want to go full Scout. Welcome to New Eden I guess.

fell and died Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:13:00 - [11] - Quote DeeJay One wrote: Let me say that dreaded word: BETA. I had fun testing upper tier suits (as of tomorrow), now we have to adapt ;) How is a Logi in any way an "upper tier suit"?! Logis is a completely different role! You really want to make a new player use a gimped assault suit for several months first before he can even get into a STD Logi?!
fell and died Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:14:00 - [12] - Quote Spademan wrote: Do you even have an idea how long it will take to get into a proper Logi suit?! Sure Basic and Assault suits seem to be mostly identical. But Basics are vastly different from Logi suits and making people sink so damn many SP into suit skills just so they can be a Logi feels a bit... unreasonable. Take a look at the items devblog sheet, all the info is there! Basic suits have the same stats as Assault suit!
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 160	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:15:00 - [13] - Quote It makes sense that the beta would be on fast-forward to test out the differences between high and low end items in a relatively short period of time. As for sticking with the game... I'm likely to come and go. I'm not very into finding people to group up with online, or corp with, which makes it harder to get into the deeper aspects of this and/or EVE. However, as changes come along I'll probably want to try them out.
fell and died Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:15:00 - [14] - Quote Spademan wrote: I know, it'll take longer, we dont know the exact differences between basic and specialisations. Lets wait and see what happens, then criticise. Take a look at the items devblog sheet, all the info is there! Basic suits have the same stats as Assault suit![/quote]
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 589	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:17:00 - [15] - Quote What I'm wondering is how the game is going to look a few years from now, when everyone's had the time to accumulate so much SP and can basically play any role in any battle in prototype gear, to the point where one person can turn the tide of an instant battle because he's managed to plug the SP sink, then what happens? It's all well and good to have skills which constantly build up your character in EVE; that skill system just works with the subscription model and the sandbox progressive nature of the game. Furthermore, PvP interaction isn't the only way to play. That can't be said for DUST. PvP is the be all and end all. An FPS is built around PvP. Even with the introduction of drones, you simply don't get the same rush shooting down NPCs than you do shooting other players. This SP sink seems like a all-devouring whirlpool now, but we underestimate time. Soon we will be looking back on all our complaints about the SP sink and laughing at our childishness, and then cry once more when CCP reintroduces another, even more devastating sink. A vicious cycle, I fear. I really worry that this SP system just won't work in the long-term for this game.
Delta 749 Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:25:00 - [16] - Quote I think the problem is that the skill system used in general is just not suitable for a FPS For an MMO it works well enough because you expect to spend a significant amount of time building your character but FPS games tend to have a greater emphasis on player skill over character skill This will likely get certain people up in arms but I think if they are really dedicated to the skill system then maxing out the skills needed to be viable in a role should take weeks not months otherwise in the long term I imagine there will be a large player drop off and due to word of mouth less people willing to even give the game a chance and instead move on to the next CoD or Battlefield or whatever shooter where you are viable and useful from day one rather than month six
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 158	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:28:00 - [17] - Quote Warhawk, the PS3 release game, had no experience system at all. When you acquired enough points to earn a new rank it unlocked costumes. That's it. You could immediately use all weapons and immediately operate all vehicles. The only thing separating you from your opponent was FPS skill (and your teammates). That game lasted years with a viable player base. Now maybe DUST will go 10 years, I certainly hope it does (primarily for cross platform reasons, I want more games to do that). But every million SP we have to spend getting good at Job A means we are more and more lacking at Job B. I can pretty much guarantee I will never drive another tank in DUST unless I hack one away from the enemies. That's a sad realization for me, because I enjoy driving tanks in other wargames, and I enjoy them in DUST. But the dedication to perfection this game embraces, is too much. I don't have the SP to be good at it and good at infantry. I also don't want to scrimp and save for 10 months in order to someday drive a tank. I'm going to keep playing DUST for a while, but as a Scout almost exclusively. And whenever that gets boring, in a year or two, I probably won't have the option to switch gears deftly, so I will quit.
Exmaple Core SyNergy Gaming EoN. 245	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:44:00 - [18] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: Heya peeps, Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context. Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view. "SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype. When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind. If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :) Agreeee. Proto suits were waaay too easy to obtain, they should be even harder to get, ithink. Proto means you cant get any better, that should take a very long time to have indeed and the longer it takes to max out a class, the better
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 260	Posted - 2013.05.05 13:55:00 - [19] - Quote honestly, I think they should have fixed the matchmaking before increasing the prices, now it will be even harder for newbies to match the competition
2100 Angels The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:10:00 - [20] - Quote I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of their product development meetings. It seems like they're trying to capture a blue ocean from a crowded market, but their target segment seems very confused. I think Delta 749 was on the right track with his statements, but not about the inappropriateness of the skill system in an FPS. I think that this game is trying too hard to capture the casual market, of whom there are few that are interested in dedicating time to developing a character in the same manner one would in a MMO. This skill system is great for an FPS game.. in fact this type of system is exactly what I've been waiting for, for a long time now. While playing various MMORPGs, I always used to think "wow, this would be so much cooler if it took some sort of skill to use these attacks in an FPS-type mode, rather than just pressing a key on a keyboard and having an automated animation play out". There is most definitely a market for this type of game, it just feels as though a lot of concessions are being made to the casual gaming market that are going to adversely affect the end product and end up catering to neither players with casual or MMO preferences. This may not be what is happening in actuality, but these have been my impressions of the mixed signals sometimes coming up in their marketing communications and business developments. I feel like too many people in this community are actually looking for instant gratification and more of a CoD type of gameplay (not that I don't like CoD or think that DUST could take some lessons from it's gameplay mechanics, it's just not operating in the same market space)

Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 436	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:24:00 - [21] - Quote Not sure a mature chat is possible Jenza but I'll bite... First off, on the surface, I am ok with what we think is in the next build, will reserve final judgement after I actually play with it. if it does in fact take 14 weeks to get a proto suit, I am also ok with this for two reasons. The first is in looking at the long run, I would rather not be playing this game come the fall and everyone is fully proto in everything, that's just blahhhh. The second reason is that (insert common complainers) always say how "proto is not elite anymore, the suit is barely better because it has an extra module." We'll guess what, now the suit is elite because it takes so much time to get it and invest that SP. Also, I regards to new players, they will not be in PC on day one. Instant Battle will continue to improve in separating new players and vets and most vets will be out in FW, PC or null sec once we get it. I don't play EVE, but my guess would be that a person who has been playing for 1 month is not the CEO of a null sec corp, you have to work you way up to getting out into null sec and work up to leadership. Same for DUST, the MLG pro call of duty guy isn't going to come into dust and take over null sec or PC in a week due to his elite skills. Speaking of call of duty and some comparisons in this thread, this game is meant to be the all the MMO that the skill tree appears to be making it. This game is supposed to be in depth, that is what makes it attractive to a lot of us. A lot of us don't want all players equal like war hawk or halo and the game left up to FPS skill, we like the Rock paper scissor aspect of it. CCP, please do not dumb this game down, please keep it in depth and difficult and long term...not full proto in 2/3 months.
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 160	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:27:00 - [22] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: ... interesting thoughts ... I played EVE before DUST so I tend to agree. My own thought is that CCP has a style/concept that they are working within and that it is likely to pervade DUST as well. The links between the two are very clear. I know I'd like that to be the case. The latest SP trees, which are probably just a start if you think about, do tend to suggest that specialization and attention to detail are going to remain important. However, it's still possible that CCP will either try to or be forced to move towards a more commercially viable model over time if revenues are found to flow from people who aren't interested in this model. I hope not. It's nice to have something a bit different and a bit longer lasting.
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 436	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:29:00 - [23] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: I think the problem is that the skill system used in general is just not suitable for a FPS For an MMO it works well enough because you expect to spend a significant amount of time building your character but FPS games tend to have a greater emphasis on player skill over character skill This will likely get certain people up in arms but I think if they are really dedicated to the skill system then maxing out the skills needed to be viable in a role should take weeks not months otherwise in the long term I imagine there will be a large player drop off and due to word of mouth less people willing to even give the game a chance and instead move on to the next CoD or Battlefield or whatever shooter where you are viable and useful from day one rather than month six Consider me politely up in arms as I hope DUST is actually a MMOFPS like it claims to be or will be. Maybe I am just a different kind of FPSer or maybe I am just bad and need a strong character to compensate for my poor shooting skills...but I like the concept of dust pitched so far and hope it doesn't change...
Yay Adski Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:31:00 - [24] - Quote Exmaple Core wrote: jenza aranda wrote: Heya peeps, Recently there has been some ranting and raving from various people and even some people have been taking things i have said out of context. Thats why Id like to do something that probably hasnt been done on the forums for a while; Make an opinion, explain my opinion, have a mature and reasoned debate with anyone who perhaps dont share my view. "SP Sink" We had a reset when we where moved onto tranquility which was about late january, people started running full proto gear as much as a couple of months later. Its now May, only 3 or 4 moths later practically everyone is running around with full protogear be it vehicular or or infantry. when you have a game that is supposed to take years to get everything, I do think that it should at least take a little longer to get to full prototype. When i saw the tree and skill multipliers, i did think they should perhaps be lowered a bit, but after thinking on it, i changed my mind. If anyone else woul like to have a proper debate about things without descending to petty insults then go ahead :) Agreeee. Proto suits were waaay too easy to obtain, they should be even harder to get, ithink. Proto means you cant get any better, that should take a very long time to have indeed and the longer it takes to max out a class, the better Harder to get? They are barely any better then the standard and advanced. Not worth the ISK or the SP as it is imo.
ca ronic Moffit Bros 6	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:35:00 - [25] - Quote To what degree should I specialize, they just made this question harder.
5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak5q Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:37:00 - [26] - Quote By the way, I googled "mature chat" and I regretted it
Delta 749 Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 5	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:42:00 - [27] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: Delta 749 wrote: I think the problem is that the skill system used in general is just not suitable for a FPS For an MMO it works well enough because you expect to spend a significant amount of time building your character but FPS games tend to have a greater emphasis on player skill over character skill This will likely get certain people up in arms but I think if they are really dedicated to the skill system then maxing out the skills needed to be viable in a role should take weeks not months otherwise in the long term I imagine there will be a large player drop off and due to word of mouth less people willing to even give the game a chance and instead move on to the next CoD or Battlefield or whatever shooter where you are viable and useful from day one rather than month six Consider me politely up in arms as I hope DUST is actually a MMOFPS like it claims to be or will be. Maybe I am just a different kind of FPSer or maybe I am just bad and need a strong character to compensate for my poor shooting skills...but I like the concept of dust pitched so far and hope it doesn't change... For me this sort of skill progression system works better in a persistent world type game like EVE and while they are obviously deeply entwined and linked Dust is not EVE This whole "Queue up for a match, go to a lobby, slug it out, wash rinse repeat" is perfectly fine and enjoyable but that style, Im not going to say demands or requires since those are too strong, is more suited to a much faster and more active skill system such as CoD where your skills advance through use rather than passively gathering and spending skill points Now that said Im in total agreement with you over interest in the concept but would like it if our inbetween battle time could be used in a way that was more immersive to the game universe such as being able to walk around an installation on a planet that your corp has just taken over and is currently holding
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 814	Posted - 2013.05.05 14:47:00 - [28] - Quote I think it is fine. You could easily lower the SP cost to skill into the suits If you add a more weapons. The suit is just the framework, the foundation that you use to build your character. Should not be a chore to get a really good suit. More time and effort should go into figuring out and skilling into different things to equip on the suit. So you can get your suits fairly quickly and then spend days and months and years tweaking the load outs. We are all about clones here in Dust 514. So why not make the clones themselves the true SP sinks?
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 182	Posted - 2013.05.05 15:42:00 - [29] - Quote The choices we make on suit type and any other upgrade should be difficult. In my eyes we should take about 2.5 months to get a high end merc in one specialization. I am going to play for a day or so before I jump head first into a suit type. I will hit the skills that I consider core for my style and then go from there. Suits don't mean much to me if I can't fit them with the needed modules. I want to get some hands on time, feed some people a laser beam and have fun. To me SP is secondary to fun, if it is not fun I won't do it. It should take a long time to be maxed in one area, however it has to be a fun progression.
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 658	Posted - 2013.05.05 16:02:00 - [30] - Quote Right now I think the problem is that we do need longevity in the game and a sense of exclusiveness with the Protosuits. CCP just went about the worst way of doing it. I would have rather them up the SP cost of Specialized suits and left our core skills exactly the same. 5x SP for Electronics and Engineering is killer, the fact that right now with these skills maxed out I can't fit everything I want on a Protosuit makes this absurd, this is with the addition of other CPU/PG lowering skills mind you. Now Imagine how bad this will be for newer players. Unless CCP is trying to limit us to only Standard and Advanced gear as much as possible, I don't see any reason why this change had to be made. On top of that the SP sink in specialized suits yield hardly any worthwhile benefits besides the Racial bonuses. That is the worst type of SP sink. (Still waiting on Details of Extra Slots)



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