I think the problem is that advanced and prototype AV weapons are present, while advanced (weak enforcers don't count) and prototype tanks aren't. This will be less of a problem when marauders are back, but there will still be a lack of prototype tanks.

Its like having prototype scrambler rifles (high shield damage) available when only standard shield extenders are available. The available offense far exceeds the available defense.

1) If you are a tanker you know that there isn't an ++ber significant fitting difference between the current tiers, I could only fit a sagaris a little better than a gunnlogi with full circuitry/engineering. I get 1 extra low power module and maybe a little more pg/cpu/shield, won't help vs proto weapons

2) scrambler rifles do more vs shields, you'd want armor not shields

Ah! I found it. Skip to ~20 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmNdZ46v1UU

From my point of view...

• All Vehicles should get a huge Armor and Shield buff!
Multiple their shields and Armor by 225% (2.25x).


• Also make all vehicles have a damage multiplier, that increases damage by 300% (3x)

Though


• Reduce the damage of their weapons by 65%

Boom!

-

Practically make Vehicles very hard to destroy, though, they themselves deal low damage.

Thoughts

I think the problem is that advanced and prototype AV weapons are present, while advanced (weak enforcers don't count) and prototype tanks aren't. This will be less of a problem when marauders are back, but there will still be a lack of prototype tanks.

Its like having prototype scrambler rifles (high shield damage) available when only standard shield extenders are available. The available offense far exceeds the available defense.

Tankers go 20/0 in an average Ambush match, and 25+/0-1 in an average Skirmish match, the fact is, tanks do too much damage in a short amount of time to be asking for a buff alone.

Tankers go 20/0 in an average Ambush match, and 25+/0-1 in an average Skirmish match, the fact is, tanks do too much damage in a short amount of time to be asking for a buff alone.

Tankers go 20/0 in an average Ambush match, and 25+/0-1 in an average Skirmish match, the fact is, tanks do too much damage in a short amount of time to be asking for a buff alone.

So what your saying is you want tanks to be invincible against casuals and hella hard to defeat against vets. That would be fine, if tanks were banned from pub matches, but they aren't. PC will just be putting a bandage on the problem. Either ban tanks from pubs or make them so causal players can at least give them headaches(Causal as in Advanced AV gear).

or the noobs could learn to carry av grenades like they need to be.

why the hell would ccp balance this game for people playing instant battles? how does that make any sense?

So what your saying is you want tanks to be invincible against casuals and hella hard to defeat against vets. That would be fine, if tanks were banned from pub matches, but they aren't. PC will just be putting a bandage on the problem. Either ban tanks from pubs or make them so causal players can at least give them headaches(Causal as in Advanced AV gear).

Obviously because instant battles are where new players and casuals will be the most.

New players and casuals make up a significant amount of Dust's playerbase.

New players and causal get stomped on repeatedly will make them leave.

Dust is hurt. Especially when the reviews of Dust aren't exactly stellar to begin with.

The simple solution would be to ban them from instant battles, since they provide one team with too much advantage against another team who doesn't in such a small map. Then you can have your buffs. Although it's debatable as to if they even need them, considering swarms users are next to useless against infantry, and Forge gunners are sitting ducks, while tankers can kill the opposition whether they're in an AV fit or not.

And don't bring up that "use AVs" bullshit, standard packed AVs are doing next to nothing to a well-fit tank with hardeners activated.

Obviously because instant battles are where new players and casuals will be the most.

New players and casuals make up a significant amount of Dust's playerbase.

New players and causal get stomped on repeatedly will make them leave.

Dust is hurt. Especially when the reviews of Dust aren't exactly stellar to begin with.

The simple solution would be to ban them from instant battles, since they provide one team with too much advantage against another team who doesn't in such a small map. Then you can have your buffs. Although it's debatable as to if they even need them, considering swarms users are next to useless against infantry, and Forge gunners are sitting ducks, while tankers can kill the opposition whether they're in an AV fit or not.

And don't bring up that "use AVs" bullshit, standard packed AVs are doing next to nothing to a well-fit tank with hardeners activated.

Every tanker and AV guy agrees with you. I gaurentee it. I'm not saying remove enforcers because the zoom function can be nice sometimes, but we really do need real tanks. Let me make a WWII anology of what tanks should be:

Sica/soma (mlt) = stuart light tanks

gunlogi/madrugar (std) = shermans/pazer IV

marauders (adv) = panthers

enforcers (adv) = Hellcats/m10's

proto tanks of AR crushing slaughter houses = king tigers

proto tank destroyers of murderous intent = jadgpanthers




just an idea from a tanker. I do think enforcers have their place, tho. but we need something that is the polar opposite of them.


and having proto av against std tanks is unbalanced...probably more than anything else. the fact that we have tankers who still manage to own when they're present is a testament to their skill. Just wait till we get proto tanks

Bro, do you even TANK? The only successful tank drivers are those who get put in against noob/mlt players or those who use their tanks as mobile turrets. A well fit gunnlogi has 7k shields (no shield control) and about a 2k shield booster. A damage mod stacked DCMA-5 breach forge gun does 2800 ish damage. With about a 4.5 second charge time. Put him on a roof where he can see a majority of the battlefield and he can easily repulse almost any tank singlehandedly. An ishukone assault forge gun damage modded does around 2300 ish damage with a 1.4 second charge time. 6 seconds and my tank is running to the hills if not gone in a cloud of majestic atomization. And with a corp coordinating against you? Dont even bother with the tank. If they have two dedicated av guys and one or two more with av nades, the tank stands 0 chance.

Don't make it like Infantry aren't a part of this equation. What roof in Ambush and OMS are you going to be where every infantry unit isn't seeing you? You'll be forced to retreat or sniped before you get the second shot in. There is literally no where you can go in Ambush where Lasers can't hit you, hell most places ARs can hit you. Forget about Snipers they're hitting your from almost anywhere. Have you even played an Ambush match, especially in Magus Peak?

And it's clear you haven't read my post at all. What causal is going to be rolling with a Ishukone that cost 110,000+ ISK? Just the weapon alone is costing more than some entire advanced suits, and with Damage Modes you have a high chance of dying to even Militia ARs. No one is going to bring that out in pubs, you'll be hard pressed to find someone to bring a DCMA out in pubs. You can't scream for a buff to tanks, without fixing the pub problem first. IDGAF about casuals is not an answer, as this game success will hinge heavily on them.

Don't make it like Infantry aren't a part of this equation. What roof in Ambush and OMS are you going to be where every infantry unit isn't seeing you? You'll be forced to retreat or sniped before you get the second shot in. There is literally no where you can go in Ambush where Lasers can't hit you, hell most places ARs can hit you. Forget about Snipers they're hitting your from almost anywhere. Have you even played an Ambush match, especially in Magus Peak?

And it's clear you haven't read my post at all. What causal is going to be rolling with a Ishukone that cost 110,000+ ISK? Just the weapon alone is costing more than some entire advanced suits, and with Damage Modes you have a high chance of dying to even Militia ARs. No one is going to bring that out in pubs, you'll be hard pressed to find someone to bring a DCMA out in pubs. You can't scream for a buff to tanks, without fixing the pub problem first. IDGAF about casuals is not an answer, as this game success will hinge heavily on them.

It's a tank, it's supposed to be hard to kill. The problem boils down to laziness. Back in early open beta AV was ignored, I know because I was guilty of it for a while until I learned better. Tankers got better and better because their specified role was a more narrow path compared to infantry options for customization. Tankers got better and better over time but AV never caught up until recently. Is something truly OP when there's an effective counter readily available to spec into? It was a learning experience for all infantry and eventually most of us learned to adapt. No one person should be allowed to solo a tank, it should require coordination and focusing your fire at the precise moment to pop one. This also goes back to my video link earlier on counter play mechanics.
Tanks are fun to use, they give their users more options on the field to change the course of the battle and even the battlefield by destroying instillations. Destroying installations probably wasn't part of a HAV's intended purpose, but it's good strategy nonetheless. On the infantry side, this mechanic being used on them was intended to be equally fun because new options became available to them in the form of various AV. Infantry AV could try to solo the tank, pushing it back and denying its advances, or they could team together with infantry and lay one calculated strike to eliminate the threat. This promotes diversity in each battle.

Ok, bro, I'm that guy who will go 41/0 in a skirmish without ever losing half my shields and I am telling you that after may 14th, you probably will never see me pulling tanks in pubs because I've got PC to deal with. Most of the other serious tankers are the same way.

Also: omg 110,000 ISK!? That's sooooo much!

try 2.5 mil/suit and then come crying to me.

So what your saying is you want tanks to be invincible against casuals and hella hard to defeat against vets. That would be fine, if tanks were banned from pub matches, but they aren't. PC will just be putting a bandage on the problem. Either ban tanks from pubs or make them so causal players can at least give them headaches(Causal as in Advanced AV gear).

the fact that we have tankers who still manage to own when they're present is a testament to their skill. Just wait till we get proto tanks

You make it seem like AV is underpowered against vehicles. Definitely not the case. My proposal, if implemented, would still allow us AV homies to solo tanks; it would just take longer.

The TTK a vehicle matters. The more time it takes the more AV guts will complain. The less it takes, the more tankers, pilot and drivers will complain. By proposing that vehicles do less damage, AV would still be viable and the only thing that would happen would be that it would take longer.

Justin,

I dislike having to die to switch to AV as much as the next AV Homie (why I run AV 80% of the time in Ambush).

Though, have you honestly not learned about my patented, Swarm & Flux ComboGäó? Easiest way for a noob to take down a high tier tank. Makes any high end HAV seem like a militia variant with no mods ;)

Want me to reveal this combo to you?

Every tanker and AV guy agrees with you. I gaurentee it. I'm not saying remove enforcers because the zoom function can be nice sometimes, but we really do need real tanks. Let me make a WWII anology of what tanks should be:

Sica/soma (mlt) = stuart light tanks

gunlogi/madrugar (std) = shermans/pazer IV

marauders (adv) = panthers

enforcers (adv) = Hellcats/m10's

proto tanks of AR crushing slaughter houses = king tigers

proto tank destroyers of murderous intent = jadgpanthers




just an idea from a tanker. I do think enforcers have their place, tho. but we need something that is the polar opposite of them.


and having proto av against std tanks is unbalanced...probably more than anything else. the fact that we have tankers who still manage to own when they're present is a testament to their skill. Just wait till we get proto tanks

It's not laziness at all, you have to use high-end Gear specifically designed to harm them and are less effective or almost useless against infantry with damage modes to beat any non-militia tanker with a brain, which means you're not only have a high chance of dying in pubs, you're going to go negative ISK when you do. Vets can afford to do this, they cant. That's not what casual and especially new players need.

I never said tankers were bad for the game, but they are bad for pubs since they are designed for infantry only. You can't sit here and tell me that the tank doesn't provide an absurd amount of advantage to one team in pubs as of now. Yes there are many blues being stupid like shooting ARs at you, but there are quite a few who would be countering you, but there is almost no where to go because of the map size without being raped by infantry coming at you from all size as soon as you shoot that first swarm. I'm sure you played pubs to know what I'm talking about. Magus Peak, for example, is a nightmare for people trying to counter tanks.

This isn't about learning how to take tanks down. This is about tanks having no business being in Ambush. That same noob trying to kill that tank ends up dying to infantry before he can get the second volley off. And that's after he died the first time because he wasn't in AV. Not to mention going AV from the start puts you at risk of being a hindrance to the team if no tank is deployed.

This isn't about learning how to take tanks down. This is about tanks having no business being in Ambush. That same noob trying to kill that tank ends up dying to infantry before he can get the second volley off. And that's after he died the first time because he wasn't in AV. Not to mention going AV from the start puts you at risk of being a hindrance to the team if no tank is deployed.

I just noticed something, your topic specifies vehicle balance, but you only talk about HAV. You do know there's Dropships and LAVs in this game right? I'm speced into LAV and will probably do it again on Monday and quite frankly I feel insulted lol.

That is the beauty behind the love triangle

AV>Vehicles>Infantry>AV

You got to learn to adapt. That noob has to learn how to counter infantry. I started off as dedicated AV with my Dire Sentinel default class. It wasn't easy, though, you got to learn not to expose yourself greatly when attacking Tanks. If you really wany, I could put in a good word for you at Bojo's ;)

P.S you could always play Ambush OMS, A LOT less tanks; railguns can,easily destroy them, plus there are supply depots. Not to mention the maps and spawns are superior. To be honest I only like to play regular Ambush when I am going Vehicle hunting. The spawns are to inconsistent for my tastes.

Did you even watch the video I linked earlier on counter mechanics? Again, if the enemy brings in an HAV it's going to expose that new player to new options. They might find that they might want to specialize in AV, learn strategy from experienced players on how to effectively counter it, or they might be inspired to spec into HAV themselves and join the fun. That's the beauty of the sandbox experience in this game. One event can create a plethora of different reactions. You're only focusing on one reaction: rage quitting. We were all newbies in this game once, but look at us now, we learned and got better. Why not focusing on helping them than assuming that the game needs to cater to them. Example, after may 6th, if a HAV drops in a pub match and you saw a bunch of NPC corps on the board, turn on team chat and teach them on the fly how on what to do. I know I'll be doing so. And after the battle, I'll be making sure to direct them to Dust University or Bojo's School of the Trades or any corp willing to help newbies up that learning cliff of New Eden.


If pubs were infantry only, why are HAV, and Dropships even allowed to be called in. Or free LAVs for that matter? Taking vehicles out of pubs is going to be detrimental to this game. I don't even have a single SP invested in HAV and I know that. If there's an infantry only game mode it'll overall hurt the game. Newbies will never have a chance to practice how to hill vehicles so when they move on to PC and FW, they'll be less effective, never see vehicles in action which might inspire them to spec into vehicles themselves, or they might feel restricted to Infantry ONRY mode and never experience the what all of Dust 514 has to offer. Quite frankly, the latter scenario is probably worse because that's a fate worse than quitting. I played EVE online for 5+ years on and off always staying in the safety of high-sec. The last 2 years were the most fun when I ditched those training wheels and learned to play with the big boys of 0.0 space. I got my ass handed to me several times, but I got better. Newbies on here need to see everything available at all times because there's more to Dust 514 than foot soldiers with rifles.

This isn't about learning how to take tanks down. This is about tanks having no business being in Ambush. That same noob trying to kill that tank ends up dying to infantry before he can get the second volley off. And that's after he died the first time because he wasn't in AV. Not to mention going AV from the start puts you at risk of being a hindrance to the team if no tank is deployed.

YOU, YES YOU
Please leave, you want to take my food away and I dont like that. My alt is AV and if you took away tanks from ambush you'd take away the tanks my ADV forgeguns and Swarms eat.

More like Tanks >= High end AV> Infantry > Tanks. Always account for the fact that can't can not only hit you back, they can kill an AV suit in less than a second, while AV suits are auto-dying most of the time to infantry. You don't counter infantry and tanks in Ambush at the same time. The small map/lack of Supply Depots simply will not allow it.

I don't like this "just play OMS" answer either, it's completely ignoring the problem. Ambush is broken right now, don't ignoring, fix it, especially before you start buffing tanks.