DUST Search - =An AV Guy Speaks Out on Vehicle Balance= ----------------------------------- :P

Justin Tymes wrote:

low genius wrote:

Justin Tymes wrote:

So what your saying is you want tanks to be invincible against casuals and hella hard to defeat against vets. That would be fine, if tanks were banned from pub matches, but they aren't. PC will just be putting a bandage on the problem. Either ban tanks from pubs or make them so causal players can at least give them headaches(Causal as in Advanced AV gear).

or the noobs could learn to carry av grenades like they need to be.

why the hell would ccp balance this game for people playing instant battles? how does that make any sense?

Obviously because instant battles are where new players and casuals will be the most.

New players and casuals make up a significant amount of Dust's playerbase.

New players and causal get stomped on repeatedly will make them leave.

Dust is hurt. Especially when the reviews of Dust aren't exactly stellar to begin with.

The simple solution would be to ban them from instant battles, since they provide one team with too much advantage against another team who doesn't in such a small map. Then you can have your buffs. Although it's debatable as to if they even need them, considering swarms users are next to useless against infantry, and Forge gunners are sitting ducks, while tankers can kill the opposition whether they're in an AV fit or not.

And don't bring up that "use AVs" bullshit, standard packed AVs are doing next to nothing to a well-fit tank with hardeners activated.


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Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 454	Posted - 2013.05.05 03:31:00 - [1] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: Or... Needs to happen along with nosferatu infantry weapons/equipment as the effective counter. But of course infantry will ignore speccing into them and QQ until a militia variant can drain a vehicle's capacitor in 1/8 of a second. Face it, the developers are so afraid of power creep, that counter play gets ignored.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 455	Posted - 2013.05.05 04:49:00 - [2] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: low genius wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: So what your saying is you want tanks to be invincible against casuals and hella hard to defeat against vets. That would be fine, if tanks were banned from pub matches, but they aren't. PC will just be putting a bandage on the problem. Either ban tanks from pubs or make them so causal players can at least give them headaches(Causal as in Advanced AV gear). or the noobs could learn to carry av grenades like they need to be. why the hell would ccp balance this game for people playing instant battles? how does that make any sense? Obviously because instant battles are where new players and casuals will be the most. New players and casuals make up a significant amount of Dust's playerbase. New players and causal get stomped on repeatedly will make them leave. Dust is hurt. Especially when the reviews of Dust aren't exactly stellar to begin with. The simple solution would be to ban them from instant battles, since they provide one team with too much advantage against another team who doesn't in such a small map. Then you can have your buffs. Although it's debatable as to if they even need them, considering swarms users are next to useless against infantry, and Forge gunners are sitting ducks, while tankers can kill the opposition whether they're in an AV fit or not. And don't bring up that "use AVs" bullshit, standard packed AVs are doing next to nothing to a well-fit tank with hardeners activated. It's a tank, it's supposed to be hard to kill. The problem boils down to laziness. Back in early open beta AV was ignored, I know because I was guilty of it for a while until I learned better. Tankers got better and better because their specified role was a more narrow path compared to infantry options for customization. Tankers got better and better over time but AV never caught up until recently. Is something truly OP when there's an effective counter readily available to spec into? It was a learning experience for all infantry and eventually most of us learned to adapt. No one person should be allowed to solo a tank, it should require coordination and focusing your fire at the precise moment to pop one. This also goes back to my video link earlier on counter play mechanics. Tanks are fun to use, they give their users more options on the field to change the course of the battle and even the battlefield by destroying instillations. Destroying installations probably wasn't part of a HAV's intended purpose, but it's good strategy nonetheless. On the infantry side, this mechanic being used on them was intended to be equally fun because new options became available to them in the form of various AV. Infantry AV could try to solo the tank, pushing it back and denying its advances, or they could team together with infantry and lay one calculated strike to eliminate the threat. This promotes diversity in each battle.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 455	Posted - 2013.05.05 06:34:00 - [3] - Quote EDIT: Forum ate my post
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 456	Posted - 2013.05.05 06:55:00 - [4] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: It's not laziness at all, you have to use high-end Gear specifically designed to harm them and are less effective or almost useless against infantry with damage modes to beat any non-militia tanker with a brain, which means you're not only have a high chance of dying in pubs, you're going to go negative ISK when you do. Vets can afford to do this, they cant. That's not what casual and especially new players need. Did you even watch the video I linked earlier on counter mechanics? Again, if the enemy brings in an HAV it's going to expose that new player to new options. They might find that they might want to specialize in AV, learn strategy from experienced players on how to effectively counter it, or they might be inspired to spec into HAV themselves and join the fun. That's the beauty of the sandbox experience in this game. One event can create a plethora of different reactions. You're only focusing on one reaction: rage quitting. We were all newbies in this game once, but look at us now, we learned and got better. Why not focusing on helping them than assuming that the game needs to cater to them. Example, after may 6th, if a HAV drops in a pub match and you saw a bunch of NPC corps on the board, turn on team chat and teach them on the fly how on what to do. I know I'll be doing so. And after the battle, I'll be making sure to direct them to Dust University or Bojo's School of the Trades or any corp willing to help newbies up that learning cliff of New Eden. Justin Tymes wrote: I never said tankers were bad for the game, but they are bad for pubs since they are designed for infantry only. You can't sit here and tell me that the tank doesn't provide an absurd amount of advantage to one team in pubs as of now. Yes there are many blues being stupid like shooting ARs at you, but there are quite a few who would be countering you, but there is almost no where to go because of the map size without being raped by infantry coming at you from all size as soon as you shoot that first swarm. I'm sure you played pubs to know what I'm talking about. Magus Peak, for example, is a nightmare for people trying to counter tanks. If pubs were infantry only, why are HAV, and Dropships even allowed to be called in. Or free LAVs for that matter? Taking vehicles out of pubs is going to be detrimental to this game. I don't even have a single SP invested in HAV and I know that. If there's an infantry only game mode it'll overall hurt the game. Newbies will never have a chance to practice how to hill vehicles so when they move on to PC and FW, they'll be less effective, never see vehicles in action which might inspire them to spec into vehicles themselves, or they might feel restricted to Infantry ONRY mode and never experience the what all of Dust 514 has to offer. Quite frankly, the latter scenario is probably worse because that's a fate worse than quitting. I played EVE online for 5+ years on and off always staying in the safety of high-sec. The last 2 years were the most fun when I ditched those training wheels and learned to play with the big boys of 0.0 space. I got my ass handed to me several times, but I got better. Newbies on here need to see everything available at all times because there's more to Dust 514 than foot soldiers with rifles.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 456	Posted - 2013.05.05 06:58:00 - [5] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Justin, I dislike having to die to switch to AV as much as the next AV Homie (why I run AV 80% of the time in Ambush). Though, have you honestly not learned about my patented, Swarm & Flux ComboGäó? Easiest way for a noob to take down a high tier tank. Makes any high end HAV seem like a militia variant with no mods ;) Want me to reveal this combo to you? This isn't about learning how to take tanks down. This is about tanks having no business being in Ambush. That same noob trying to kill that tank ends up dying to infantry before he can get the second volley off. And that's after he died the first time because he wasn't in AV. Not to mention going AV from the start puts you at risk of being a hindrance to the team if no tank is deployed. I just noticed something, your topic specifies vehicle balance, but you only talk about HAV. You do know there's Dropships and LAVs in this game right? I'm speced into LAV and will probably do it again on Monday and quite frankly I feel insulted lol.