So you're saying that you want them to wipe all the SP you've earned, when there are valid options that give Merc Pack customers a fair deal WITHOUT punishing everyone after we were all promised "no more resets"?

What part of "THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER VALID OPTIONS" did you not understand?

I want CCP to be held to the agreement they made with their customers.

It won't have a significant impact on me either way. If they stick to doing it wrong, I'll get all the AUR I spend on BPOs back, and then some (because I bought a lot before the price hike). If they do it right, I'll get pretty much exactly the same result. I want them to do it right because it's the right thing to do, NOT because it will have a significant effect on my personal situation.

There should be wipe at commercial release because we have been testing in a beta. So to get my aur/merc packs back i have to be punished?

The deal we were offered included a full credit of Merc Pack contents on commercial reset, NOT contingent on a reset happening at that time, and NOT conditional on us accepting an individual reset of our characters.

That was also defined as THE ONLY OPTION FOR A REFUND. What we're being offered is definitely NOT what was agreed to by both the customers and CCP.

So, no, CCP didn't "cave" to our demands. And yes they should have. There are plenty of ACTUALLY fair ways to honour the agreement. There are even a whole bunch of great options that are "fair" on the late arrivals who chose not to spend a cent, or the early adopters who decided to play for free and got into closed beta by signing up instead of providing monetary support on top of their time testing the game.

EDIT: And I'm not sure how it's "fair" to retroactively change the conditions agreed to on people who were generous enough to pay CCP money in advance on a promise of some good gear while the game is still in close beta and not even 100% guaranteed to make it to open beta, let alone release.

Fairness is something that doesn't exist in the real world and sure as **** doesn't exist in New Eden.

The deal is, the normal layman, if they were here from closed beta on, would understand that every refund was connected to a full SP reset of the character. It was not about KEEPING all gained SP and having those Merc Packs refunded. So that is fair if one were to take a moment, leave the bruised ego at the door, and be realizing of the trend that was set by our previous experiences with CCP.

On the other hand, all the QQ'ers want their cake and to eat it to, which as all of us knows is an impossibility.

SO, step away from the tablet of unreasonability and engage the brain for a moment.

THAT is ALL!

Here's what CCP agreed to, feel free to read it and try REALLY hard to actually understand all the words this time:

I know there are EULAs out there that will counter this especially since they did give an announcement during the last reset that it will be the last one and that includes the merc pack.

Besides, CCP already bent backwards giving you the option for an autumn reset. But also gave you the finger by resetting your SP :-p

I don't see the conundrum here. If they reset everyone at release who loses out? If they don't, who loses out there? All the ranting is just getting confusing now.

If I read the dev blog properly, if you bought merc packs or aurum, on May 6th you get to keep the items you bought which in short means you keep the SP. Why would anyone want a refund? If you go by what the terms of the agreement say, it says that you would be refunded upon respecs and commercial release. Taking this into account means you would lose the boosters that you used to gain SP, so refunding the packs would mean losing your extra Skill Points. So really, what is the fight over? Why would anyone want to lose their SP they grinded out?

Buy Merc Pack, with the understanding that the contents are to be credited back to you on release.

Play DUST for a while, and build a character who's a sniper.

Realise that you find sniping boring, but you named your character "Sniper McSnipey" and don't really want to be driving a Missile HAV with that character name.

Delete the character - Booster SP gone, Toxin and Dragonfly gone, and all your HK4Ms gone, and maybe half the AUR on gear you bought for the character. Start over fresh, COMFORTABLE IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU'RE GETTING ALL THAT DELETED GEAR BACK ON RELEASE.

Then the release day comes around, and... Nope. You only get your stuff back if you choose to sacrifice EVERYTHING YOU'VE DONE SINCE CREATING YOUR NEW CHARACTER. All you keep is your name. Or you can keep your progress, but get none of your lost Merc Pack items.

But it's "fair", right? Because nobody can cheat the system and get double the Boosters. Who cares if there have been several other, better and more valid solutions suggested which would also prevent that from happening? CCP have decided to go with an option that shafts people with legitimate reasons to expect a reset (like "I actually read about what I was buying before spending my money", for example), and if you don't like it, HTFU.

...

Uhhh... No. That's not what "legally binding agreement" means. And it's also not how "false advertising lawsuit" works.

---

If you're going to offer a compromise, offer a COMPROMISE, not a way to shaft your customers.

The deal we were offered included a full credit of Merc Pack contents on commercial reset, NOT contingent on a reset happening at that time, and NOT conditional on us accepting an individual reset of our characters.

That was also defined as THE ONLY OPTION FOR A REFUND. What we're being offered is definitely NOT what was agreed to by both the customers and CCP.

So, no, CCP didn't "cave" to our demands. And yes they should have. There are plenty of ACTUALLY fair ways to honour the agreement. There are even a whole bunch of great options that are "fair" on the late arrivals who chose not to spend a cent, or the early adopters who decided to play for free and got into closed beta by signing up instead of providing monetary support on top of their time testing the game.

EDIT: And I'm not sure how it's "fair" to retroactively change the conditions agreed to on people who were generous enough to pay CCP money in advance on a promise of some good gear while the game is still in close beta and not even 100% guaranteed to make it to open beta, let alone release.

In that case, I would say that IF anyone bought items, then Activated those items, then proceeded to Delete their character (no matter what the reason is) then they indeed forfeit said Items on that character. Infact, when you redeem items on your character, it says those Items cannot be switched between new characters anyway, so in this case you should be entitled to nothing being re-imbersed in this scenario.

SIDE NOTE: CCP makes EVE Online, so most of the same mothods will apply here. All EVE players know (or at the very least should) that character DELETION is a bad idea, you lose everything, time, ISK, Assets, and Skills aquired. What THIS scenario demonstrates is the equivilant to someone playing EVE Online for a year, then deciding they don't like the play or that they skilled up wrong, then deleting the character and asking for the game time back. So The character deletion scenario is completely moot as a basis of argument.


Now as for anything els, I'm open, just lost. I have 3 characters on Dust. 2 experimental and a main, I've bought a few merc packs just for the value vs. Aurum. But I keep all my SP upon respec on May6th. Is this correct or am I reading all these posts wrong? Is I'm correct, then I don't need or want a refund. If I'm not, then I'd like to know where my thinking is flawed.

As mentioned, the description of the Merc Pack CLEARLY STATED that we'd get all the contents back on commercial release. There was nothing in the description of the pack which implied any kind of additional condition on the refund, and the wording implied that there WASN'T a reset coming with that final credit of the Merc Pack. Expecting the promised full credit is perfectly reasonable. Expecting us to have our progress wiped to get it is not. I'm fine with keeping boosted SP in place of Boosters if they've been used. I've got no problem with CCP saying you don't get back AUR that was spent on Boosters. It's fair to say, "Your boosted SP is being refunded. That's equal value to the Booster" and leave it at that. It's also fair to say "AUR you spend on Boosters is still there in the form of boosted SP" and not refund that portion of your AUR.

Nice to see they ignored the legitimate complaints about your suggestion and haven't provided a solution that's remotely fair on people who actually read what we were purchasing.

Isn't that what they are doing? You can get either the refund or the skills, right?

Nonsense, anyone in their right mind would have assumed there would be a reset on commercial release in order to have a level playing field upon game launch.

Since then, CCP has found a way not to have to do this -- by changing the skills and SP requirements -- and now they have OFFERED you the option of not resetting. However, if you want to do the reset/refund they will let you.

Cry me a freaking river.

Anyone who actually read and understood the purchase as it stood prior to open beta knows that "and" doesn't mean the same as "including" and that the wording used when I got my Merc Pack made a clear distinction that commercial release was independent of any reset, and that neither one required the other.

LOL. All of that off the word "and" huh? Keep trying and keep crying.

I find it funny that you're trying to defend CCP's decision to run with something that violates their own offer, and using your own failure to comprehend basic English as an argument.

Clearly stated that full refund will be given upon commercial release, not offered as an alternative to keeping earned sp. That being the case all I can see is a betrayal of trust, and there isn't any valid argument that indicates said betrayal is anything but wrong.

This thread makes me smile. I like how none of these entitled proles even mention that a refund hasn't happened so far without some form of reset. They argue the meaningless semantics of a EULA that is clearly against them in this case.

Well it obviously wasn't clear.............

I'll try explaining this again, please try and actually follow my point this time.

Very clear. http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/Malcolm_Nolasco/media/84408BE4-4B12-46FF-B09D-90EB0BF361D3-3593-000003042D57FE42_zpsdd8700e1.jpg.html

Either way you slice this up, it looks like people are wanting to be reimbersed all items and keep all the SP.

Im sure there is some math whiz with an algorythm of some kind to compute what I'm about to say.

I agree with you on the Booster/SP equivilancy idea. However, perhaps CCP is trying to be fair in this "Optional Reset". I say this becasue it can be argued that the boosters have been used. Since you can't trade them right now, it would make no sense to have a stock pile of them anyway. But the boosters give you a 50% bonus to your SP both active and passive. This equates to a SP Gained*1.5=X. Now the argument can be made that the SP you gained is increased soley by the skills and equipment you can use during a battle and that being responsible for more SP gain, where as you wouldn't have achieved with out SP being boosted. So in reality you only took a fraction of time, over time, to get to your current state.

For those with aching brains, lets put this into a simple equation. Im going to just use this as an example, No, the numbers won't be exactly accruate.

Say it takes 30 seconds to solo hack an installation without the hacking skill. To hack 10 installations will take 300 seconds. The hacking skill gives you a bonus of 5%. Say (Just for easier math here guys) it takes 200,000SP to get to lvl 5 Hacking which gives you a bonus of 25%. So we have here:

0SP: 10 installations hacked in 300 seconds totalling 500 War Points
200,000SP: 25% bonus= 13 installations hacked in (Under) 300 seconds totalling 650 War points
200,000SP + Proto Hack Module: 50% Bonus= 20 installations hacked in 300 seconds totalling 1000 War Points

Now (in this equation) with out boosters, you would need the whole 200,000 SP to reach Hacking 5. However with Boosters, that 50% bonus means you really only need 133,334SP to reach your 200,000SP mark, so you actually earn more SP in battle on top of the 50%SP boost.


So, in doing all this math, I think CCP is being rather fair in offering the reset. Otherwise you wouldn't have nearly 1/4 the skills that you do, (since you wouldn't have gotten to where you are with out better skills and eqipment in the first placeand it's OPTIONAL. Either way you slice it up, I still think they're being fair.

Very clear. http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/Malcolm_Nolasco/media/84408BE4-4B12-46FF-B09D-90EB0BF361D3-3593-000003042D57FE42_zpsdd8700e1.jpg.html

LOL. I have seen this too.

Some of you are trying to draw a distinction between resets and the commercial release. However, once again for the mentally deficient, the use of "and" is not generally meant to exclude something but to include something. The commercial release is being lumped into the list as a similar item -- not as something different.

Obviously, during development there will be resets and similarly upon commercial release.

Only, it turns out, the new SP revamp means we don't have to be reset. So, you can still choose the reset if you wish to - and now you are crying because those of us who don't want to choose the reset will keep our SP.

Blah blah blah. Cry away... my cup runneth over.