Oh look an imperfect scrub, AFK some moar.

well your numbers are bit wrong,

19.99 gets you a 1 month active booster and enough aurum to buy a 1 month passive booster, after that you hsould have enough aurum left to buy more boosters when needed.

I think I stretch it for about a month and a half for 19.99

so if you look at it that way it should be around 12-15 dollars per month. of course you'd have to not spend your aurum on proto suits.

People could just not use boosters, but I guess some ppl just need an edge, so there will always be a market for it. I dont need to use them but probably will occasionally.

His argument isn't about the boosters... it's about passive SP.

He's basically saying that no matter how good newberries are, they'll never be able to compete with the 12 passive-trained alts that he has made back at Jan-Feb 2013 if they join at Jan-Feb 2014 or later. And quite honestly, he is right about that.

Show of hands, who buys the SP boosters and then stops at less sp than the boosterless cap?

Right now AUR boosters just give you an edge over free players, they don't actually reduce the grind. That is very counter-intuitive and unsatisfying. Furthermore, fully boosted is an incredible $28/month, which is ridiculously high (that's a new CoD every 2 months, or CoD plus a year of dlc 3x a year) for the the sparse content we have. Now I understand we are doing it as an investment for that magic day DUST 514 becomes "good", so it's not a perfect analogy; just bear with me please.

AFK boosters reveal a population that has faith in the game but don't want to grind. So they just sit there while doing things they actually enjoy. Instead of monetizing these players, they are eating server cost and making the match less enjoyable for those who do show up to play. This is a mistake. On the flip-side, you have to play a significant amount of time to "cap out" every week, whether you are boosted or not. While you don't HAVE to cap every week, leaving "SP on the table" is a discouraging experience that makes your efforts seem less meaningful compared to the proverbial "no lifers". EVEN THOUGH SP DOESN'T MAKE YOU MORE POWERFUL (after a certain, low threshold of level 5 in about 5-10 skills) IT IS STILL MORE FUN TO HAVE "ALL" (as in your personal maximum potential) SP by virtue of variety. Finally you have the alt situation. People have PSNs cooking with characters they never plan to play for at least a year, relying solely on passive SP. This creates a strong *unearned* veteran advantage.

So now that I've addressed my issues, let's proceed to an important discussion point - should paying give you MORE SP, FASTER SP, EASIER SP, or a combination of the above (it can't give you no advantage, you are spending money after all)? Right now the active and passive booster only gives you more SP. It is neither easier nor faster, with the caveat that "getting more" allows you to get the original amount faster, which is a type of easier. I feel promoting that logic is a poor customer experience as I described in the previous paragraph.

Ultimately, my purpose for starting this discussion is clearly going to have an agenda, so here is my response:

Firstly, it is important to realize the F2P model uses non paying accounts for 2 purposes. (1) is the potential customer. It would be a poor business that didn't try to deliver something that people would like to purchase and a F2P model lets the try large portions of the game on an indefinite timeline, freeing them from the burden of urgency in the transaction - a very customer friendly approach. (2) is content for the paying customer. Every additional human player creates a new variable that changes constantly, giving a very organic experience. It is for this reason that I think active SP should stay for the free player. SP is an ideal reward for logging on in a way that cannot be taken away (like ISK, assets, metagame). Tying that to upholding both free roles is acceptable.

I would go even further and say they should not get passive SP. This would neatly remove the issue of free alts progressing on the merit of join date. Eventually, those alts will "mature" and allow one player to take on a dozen roles with all level 5 in the necessary attributes. This removes opportunities for new players to contribute, which is a very real problem for a game that aspires to last a decade. This is not EVE where every new player can do something, it is DUST where every player in the match is taking up a finite number of slots. Vets being able to cover every role is not something they should be granted for free; I see it as the greatest danger to the long term health of the game.

Personally, I believe it would be fairest (which in my opinion is the best way to entice potential customers into actual customers, especially when they are expected to transition between the two fluidly) if money never granted you MORE SP. I think the game will survive with any decision, but I believe boosters have more value, not less, when the difference is time or effort. Adding the wrinkle of more sniffs of pay-to-win, although with the nature of DUST skill progression, it does not cross that threshold, merely flirts with it. The reasons why I would remove passive SP from free accounts apply to this point as well, but for different reasons. It makes a "free" player less competitive for that finite slot by merit of being someone who has not paid cash yet. Because DUST deals with persistence over a large geography and time-span, I petition CCP to reconsider. It is not game-breaking like passive SP, but it does hurt the new player experience, which hurts the whole community by discouraging new members.

Well I covered what I would remove, but have nearly run out of space. I will continue with what I would modify and in a second post.

One of my characters in Eve Online was started in 2009 - they'll never have as many Skill Points as someone who started in 2003. Unbalanced? Sure. Unfair? Not really.

Just be smart about what you specialize in. If you don't specialize in something stupid (like piloting, lmao) you'll have just as much of an advantage on the field as anyone else.

He might have 25,000,000 SP but it only takes about 7-10,000,000 to have Level 5 everything in a particular specialization.

Yeah, thats kinda it isnt it? It will make them more versatile, but you cannot make use of all your sp in every role. So I dont understand why people think we will have vets running around and wielding a forge gun and a sniper rifle and driving a tank and flying all at the same time, ridiculous.

So, effectively, someone like me that's a full-time student not currently working would just be ******. I think a better solution would be an adjustment to pricing rather than shafting anyone who can't be online every day.

For instance, what if the cost of the 7-Day Passive Booster was applied to a new 30-Day one, and the cost of the lesser time periods was reduced in conjunction? That alone would serve to significantly reduce the cost of "monthly subscription", which I also heartily support, as well.

The monthly subscription option given by SOE for Planetside 2, for example, has gotten them quite a bit of revenue, and is very popular with the community, as it even boosts offline Cert gain so that those who have less time to play aren't left behind as much.

Correct. This game gears toward specialization like EVE does, and there's only so far you can go in each before you've hit the theoretical max, and anyone who reaches it with you will still be on the same level as you, even if they started far later than you did.

TL;DR

Combine the current Active and Passive SP gains into one monthly cap that is earned passively. Active gain allows you to earn this cap faster by playing. Once the cap is reached for the month(through active play) the passive gain stops until next monthly reset. A soft cap still remains in effect for the remainder of the month after hard cap to allow for grinding as it is now.


A subscription of $15/mo(see underline for my rationale though i make room it could be cheaper and really sell at $10) allows for that passive SP cap to be raised by 50%(this would mean the rate at which passive SP is earned is also increase by %50 since it needs to hit a larger number in the same fixed time of 1 month(which i define as every 28 days so its normalized given monthly differences) Additionally the subscription gives you a %50 bump in active SP gain and increase in the soft cap as it is currently).


Before i get ppl freaking out on me this is not P2W. In fact all i have done is elminated the weekly grind, elminated AFKing, created a way to reward players who want to actively play without punishing casual players, by simply combining what you earn passivel and actively over the course of a month and making it all passive and shifting active so all it does is allows you to hit that cap faster after which you can earn a soft cap. Which is not much different from how it is now.

Who knows maybe eventually shift the cap to every 365 days. That will really encourage ppl to power grind and play if they can grind and play for a years worth of SP in a few months and then soft cap for the rest of the year.

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While i understand your point about free accounts needing to play to justify their free slots. Earning passive SP isn't the issue as it is earning 1s=1sp in match that creates the issue.

Personally i think the model is better served by taking the current passive and active gain earned during the week and put it together and make it full passive and cap the gain month to month with reset being the first wednesday of each month. This however will create longer cycles and shorter cycles given 28, 29, 30 and 31 day months so perhaps normalize reset to every 28th day.



so heres how the system would work.


24K(passive) x7 x 4 + (190,400 x 4)=1,433,600 SP for the month unboosted. 2,150,400 with a booster.


Now what you do is make the system fully passive such that the rate of gain is standardized so that the SP is gained every x number of seconds so that after 28 days you would hit either of those above 2 numbers without having to play.


Well what about active gain, Hanz suggested full passive and that was boo. Well im glad you asked.

Make active gain such that it doesnt add to this number but allows you to earn this cap faster month to month. Set the gain at lets say arbitrarily as 1WP=2-3SP. (No 1s=5WP nonsense) So while you are playing you are passively still earning the SP at the rate required to hit the monthly cap like it runs in the background now. And the active gain simply accelerates the total SP youve earned to date for the month.

As soon as you hit the monthly cap ALL SP GAINS SHUT DOWN INCLUDING PASSIVE. The only thing that can be earned post hardcap is soft cap of lets say 1 WP=1SP.


The booster should be a subscription of $15/mo that gives you boost 50% increase on cap and 50% increase on gain just like it does now. Why $15? Because for $19.99 i can buy a merc pack that gives me a 30day active and enough AUR to purchase 30 day passive, have 12K AUR leftover and all the merc pack goodies.

So you creat a tier subscription. $15 gets just the boosters and $20 gets you the booster 12K AUR and all the goodies every month(guess which option ppl will buy)



So to give you an example of how this works. Lets say im a free player then i earn 1,433,600 SP every month without logging on similar but not quite the same as how it is now(currently you earn 672,000 SP/mo without logging on and "playing") .

I play and earn 2000WP in a match. I just earned 6000SP(1WP=3SP, hypothetical number) which is added to my cumulative count for the month. Once i reach 1,433,600 SP. My passive gain stops and the only way to earn more SP for the month is to play at a soft cap of 1WP=1SP.

A booster increases this cap to 2,150,400 and naturally the passive gain increases by 50% to reach it at the end of the month if i never logon. But my active gain is also increased by 50% and so if my soft cap. Therefore now 1WP=4.5SP before reaching hard cap and 1WP=1.5SP at soft cap. Once i have reached the hard cap ALL PASSIVE GAIN STOPS and all im left with is soft cap.

Please read my second post. I think the proposed system would actually be more fair to you without being unfair to those who can't afford to pay.

I understand what you're proposing, and I read your second post, but that would still leave most of the SP gain for someone like me reliant on having more time than I actually do to play the game.

Like I said, I'm with you on pricing, not arguing the point that it's too high.

Only one char can have passive SP at a time though, right? Did they change that? If not I dont see how alts give an advantage.

They just made it annoying, not hard. You only get one passive slot per PSN. If they moved passive to a booster, you could have 3 characters passively training on the same account, or just one, or have a mix, whatever you feel like. Currently they shouldn't even LET you plug in augmentations on your alts since it is a waste of money.

I see, I dont envy CCP, their job seems like an impossible task at times.

Perhaps I was unclear? The "Delta Wave" augmentation would give you all your SP without playing at all.

Full Time-Student + No Job = Flat Broke. Why do you think I play as many Free-to-Play's as I do? I used to put money into F2Ps occasionally while I was working to go back to school, but I don't have the time or money for that now. I play Dust when I have free time, and the Passive SP allows me to bump along at an acceptable level with the frequency I play.

I'm sorry you have both no money and no time. I don't think there is a way for you to be fully competitive by any metric. Did you see the suggested additional augmentations? I envision low grade augmentations could be cheap and easy to aquire, which helps you out if you are regularly active but limited. Also note, a full 25% of the SP is given away for the first 7 matches per week. That is a very low bar to get over, and if you can't perhaps you shouldn't expect to be progressing with any noticeable speed, especially for free?

I've always wanted boosters to be a catch-up thing (whether that's hit cap faster, or unlock ability to reach some global cap, ie a perpetual cap that nobody can surpass that increases each day from last reset), rather than a get-ahead thing.

With boosters working as they are, CCP is monetizing necessary items (SP), instead of focusing on creating appealing optional items.

Reading through the thread now because lots of people posted since I first looked.

Edit: I'm totally in favor of things like boosters that turn your active SP into passive gain to eliminate the grind, though.

Perhaps I was unclear? The "Delta Wave" augmentation would give you all your SP without playing at all.

Dev post from the DCUO forums

Feel free to tell me why you think you should have everything everyone else has to keep the game fair?

Here are my thoughts:

People that spend more time and have access to more features in the game will tend to have better skills and more powerful stuff. Welcome to MMOs.

The new changes to PvP regarding map rotation, seasonal gear and the ranked matchmaking are all steps that will improve the experience for all players. They will work together to place people against matched opponents. People that have better and larger amount of stuff that causes them to win all the time will face others who employ the same tactics. So, as the game matures with these systems in place the people at the top can go nuts and debuff each other to death and it will be an even playing field.

Furthermore, this is a business, not a charity; it is also entertainment, not the Olympics. So the idea of equality for all players to keep the power gap between certain groups - regardless of financial hardship or life commitments that impact game play time - isn't something that drives my day to day thinking. Player choice of activity drives this more than anything. In most cases, statements like: "I don't want to," I don't have time to" or "I don't have money to" are not going to make us alter entire systems in the game or how our business model works. There would be no game if we did.