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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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Posted - 2013.05.01 17:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR
Combine the current Active and Passive SP gains into one monthly cap that is earned passively. Active gain allows you to earn this cap faster by playing. Once the cap is reached for the month(through active play) the passive gain stops until next monthly reset. A soft cap still remains in effect for the remainder of the month after hard cap to allow for grinding as it is now.
A subscription of $15/mo(see underline for my rationale though i make room it could be cheaper and really sell at $10) allows for that passive SP cap to be raised by 50%(this would mean the rate at which passive SP is earned is also increase by %50 since it needs to hit a larger number in the same fixed time of 1 month(which i define as every 28 days so its normalized given monthly differences) Additionally the subscription gives you a %50 bump in active SP gain and increase in the soft cap as it is currently).
Before i get ppl freaking out on me this is not P2W. In fact all i have done is elminated the weekly grind, elminated AFKing, created a way to reward players who want to actively play without punishing casual players, by simply combining what you earn passivel and actively over the course of a month and making it all passive and shifting active so all it does is allows you to hit that cap faster after which you can earn a soft cap. Which is not much different from how it is now.
Who knows maybe eventually shift the cap to every 365 days. That will really encourage ppl to power grind and play if they can grind and play for a years worth of SP in a few months and then soft cap for the rest of the year.
While i understand your point about free accounts needing to play to justify their free slots. Earning passive SP isn't the issue as it is earning 1s=1sp in match that creates the issue.
Personally i think the model is better served by taking the current passive and active gain earned during the week and put it together and make it full passive and cap the gain month to month with reset being the first wednesday of each month. This however will create longer cycles and shorter cycles given 28, 29, 30 and 31 day months so perhaps normalize reset to every 28th day.
so heres how the system would work.
24K(passive) x7 x 4 + (190,400 x 4)=1,433,600 SP for the month unboosted. 2,150,400 with a booster.
Now what you do is make the system fully passive such that the rate of gain is standardized so that the SP is gained every x number of seconds so that after 28 days you would hit either of those above 2 numbers without having to play.
Well what about active gain, Hanz suggested full passive and that was boo. Well im glad you asked.
Make active gain such that it doesnt add to this number but allows you to earn this cap faster month to month. Set the gain at lets say arbitrarily as 1WP=2-3SP. (No 1s=5WP nonsense) So while you are playing you are passively still earning the SP at the rate required to hit the monthly cap like it runs in the background now. And the active gain simply accelerates the total SP youve earned to date for the month.
As soon as you hit the monthly cap ALL SP GAINS SHUT DOWN INCLUDING PASSIVE. The only thing that can be earned post hardcap is soft cap of lets say 1 WP=1SP.
The booster should be a subscription of $15/mo that gives you boost 50% increase on cap and 50% increase on gain just like it does now. Why $15? Because for $19.99 i can buy a merc pack that gives me a 30day active and enough AUR to purchase 30 day passive, have 12K AUR leftover and all the merc pack goodies.
So you creat a tier subscription. $15 gets just the boosters and $20 gets you the booster 12K AUR and all the goodies every month(guess which option ppl will buy)
So to give you an example of how this works. Lets say im a free player then i earn 1,433,600 SP every month without logging on similar but not quite the same as how it is now(currently you earn 672,000 SP/mo without logging on and "playing") .
I play and earn 2000WP in a match. I just earned 6000SP(1WP=3SP, hypothetical number) which is added to my cumulative count for the month. Once i reach 1,433,600 SP. My passive gain stops and the only way to earn more SP for the month is to play at a soft cap of 1WP=1SP.
A booster increases this cap to 2,150,400 and naturally the passive gain increases by 50% to reach it at the end of the month if i never logon. But my active gain is also increased by 50% and so if my soft cap. Therefore now 1WP=4.5SP before reaching hard cap and 1WP=1.5SP at soft cap. Once i have reached the hard cap ALL PASSIVE GAIN STOPS and all im left with is soft cap. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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172
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Posted - 2013.05.01 19:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:
Perhaps I was unclear? The "Delta Wave" augmentation would give you all your SP without playing at all.
Full Time-Student + No Job = Flat Broke. Why do you think I play as many Free-to-Play's as I do? I used to put money into F2Ps occasionally while I was working to go back to school, but I don't have the time or money for that now. I play Dust when I have free time, and the Passive SP allows me to bump along at an acceptable level with the frequency I play.[/quote]
Noc this is why i suggest creating a full passive system. It allows people to take long breaks from the game without paying to do so.
However paying for a sub gives you more SP in a shorter period of time and allows you to grind out the cap and play the soft cap if you want to play past the hard cap.
I think having a passive system on all accounts allows for ppl to still not feel as if they are going to fall behind simply because they dont play the game. After all grinding creates burnout and results in ppl often taking long breaks and at times just quitting altogether. So yea im not totally convinced that having passive is detrimental to Dust, if the incentive to pay for a sub is worthwhile.
Getting more SP is an incentive to ppl. Getting a larger rate of SP withing the same time frame as a free account is an incentive. Maybe 50% isnt enough incentive so perhaps 75% is the number or the sub has to be really cheap. Hence why i suggest $10 a fee i assure you many will pay cause i know plenty who drop $20 every month to buy merc packs to effectively do what it is im suggesting and they simply AFK the active portion.
on the flip side Mobius to be fais this is something you and everyone else needs to hear cause it needs to be said.
Free Beers wrote:Dev post from the DCUO forums
Feel free to tell me why you think you should have everything everyone else has to keep the game fair?
Here are my thoughts:
People that spend more time and have access to more features in the game will tend to have better skills and more powerful stuff. Welcome to MMOs.
The new changes to PvP regarding map rotation, seasonal gear and the ranked matchmaking are all steps that will improve the experience for all players. They will work together to place people against matched opponents. People that have better and larger amount of stuff that causes them to win all the time will face others who employ the same tactics. So, as the game matures with these systems in place the people at the top can go nuts and debuff each other to death and it will be an even playing field.
Furthermore, this is a business, not a charity; it is also entertainment, not the Olympics. So the idea of equality for all players to keep the power gap between certain groups - regardless of financial hardship or life commitments that impact game play time - isn't something that drives my day to day thinking. Player choice of activity drives this more than anything. In most cases, statements like: "I don't want to," I don't have time to" or "I don't have money to" are not going to make us alter entire systems in the game or how our business model works. There would be no game if we did.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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172
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Posted - 2013.05.01 19:50:00 -
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Tiel Syysch wrote:I've always wanted boosters to be a catch-up thing (whether that's hit cap faster, or unlock ability to reach some global cap, ie a perpetual cap that nobody can surpass that increases each day from last reset), rather than a get-ahead thing.
With boosters working as they are, CCP is monetizing necessary items (SP), instead of focusing on creating appealing optional items.
Reading through the thread now because lots of people posted since I first looked.
Edit: I'm totally in favor of things like boosters that turn your active SP into passive gain to eliminate the grind, though.
Perhaps thats the best middle situation. What i describe is a model where everyone goes on passive with active gain allowing you to grind out the passive cap faster so you can play for soft cap to augment and earn more over time. And a subscription plan that boosts the cap amount you can earn by 50% and the soft cap amount as well.
But perhaps its simpler to keep the current system. And create a booster that turns all SP active and passive for the x days(1,3,7 28) into passive gain.
And all you can earn is soft cap through active play so long as that booster is in effect. That would probably a lot simpler. Additionally you can purchase an active booster that increase the soft cap much like it does now or perhaps include that in the cost of that previous mentioned booster and make that a added feature of that booster.
And it still gives free accounts the current model.
Of course they need to get rid of the 1s=5SP mechanic to entice player to purchase that booster or they will simply AFK that portion for free anyway. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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172
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Here it is folks the only 3 plans you need.
F2P= Current model where you have active gain and passive gain on a weekly/daily basis respectively
$10(AUR equivalent perhaps costs more if there is one?) Booster augment turns all active SP gain to passive gain for 30 days. All active play is soft capped at 1WP=2-4 SP(it has to be worthwhile, 2-3 is probably best tho)
$15 Same as above plus some of the merc pack goodies on a rotation(so different stuff every month based on sale items in the market)
$20 Same as above plus x AUR(im thinking 15K)
Simple effective creates an incentive to log on and grind but also allows ppl who just want to set and forget to do the same.
Remember one thing tho if this is a booster purchased with AUR and not a subscription then eventually these items will be available for trade on the 2* player market for ISK. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:09:00 -
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Noc Tempre wrote:
Full passive breaks down because it doesn't require the free player to get invested in the game. They don't get rewarded properly for being more active and providing content for the paying customers. Furthermore, it is entirely unrealistic to LIMIT free alts, which means a year or two from now, fresh players will have no opportunities in competitive play because ALL niches will be filled by a handful of players. At the very least they should be paying the server upkeep and development costs for such large advantages.
I thought about it and though you may be right part of the beauty of Dust is you can walk away take a break and still have earned some SP.
Not everyone is going to want to pay to be able to take a break nor should they.
What i did was offer up a simpler suggestion in the form of a booster. The reason why i think it works as a booster is then its subject to trade on the secondary market. Now if someone doesnt want to pay with real money they can do so with play money.
But to earn play money you have to play and earn therefore you overcome the hurdle of them not providing content. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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172
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Here it is folks the only 3 plans you need.
F2P= Current model where you have active gain and passive gain on a weekly/daily basis respectively
$10(AUR equivalent perhaps costs more if there is one?) Booster augment turns all active SP gain to passive gain for 30 days. All active play is soft capped at 1WP=2-4 SP(it has to be worthwhile, 2-3 is probably best tho)
$15 Same as above plus some of the merc pack goodies on a rotation(so different stuff every month based on sale items in the market)
$20 Same as above plus x AUR(im thinking 15K)
Simple effective creates an incentive to log on and grind but also allows ppl who just want to set and forget to do the same.
Remember one thing tho if this is a booster purchased with AUR and not a subscription then eventually these items will be available for trade on the 2* player market for ISK. Please elaborate on how this addresses the core concerns I brought up in the OP so I can create a more meaningful response.
It eliminates the grind for those who are paying for the privilege. Those who pay and wish to grind have a larger incentive to do so with the larger soft cap.
1WP=2SP in a skirmish where you can easily warm out 2500WP in a tank or a good squad(2500 is easy enough) that 5K a match.
Oh i should iterate the soft cap is throttled but limited to only by WP there is no cieling of 1000 like there is now (or if there is to be a cieling make it 5K)
The free players earning passive can do so but lower the passive portion and raise the active if anything. With this being a booster it will be available for trade on the 2* market whenever that opens up. Now they can get the booster but need to fork over isk-->to get ISK one must play the game in one form or another-->thus providing content.
Like i said im not entirely convinced on eliminating passive gain. I know your argument about free accounts getting passive but as long as all of the gain isnt passive as my new suggestion indicates without paying for it. It is a really really long time to get a character with a lot of SP.
24,000/day x365=8,760,000 SP/year so yea after 10 years you have a character with 87,600,000 SP on a skill tree that in uprising was shown to have needed 255M SP to fully max. Just to put the numbers in perspective. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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Posted - 2013.05.01 23:42:00 -
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Garrett Blacknova wrote:The core of this argument is wrong.
Passive Booster = faster SP.
All it does is increase the rate at which passive SP accumulates. That's the definition of "faster". It doesn't hand you SP without any time spent to accumulate. You still have to wait a week for your week's worth of boosted SP.
Active Booster = easier SP.
You still have to enter matches. It doesn't give you SP based on games you already played. It doesn't just hand a pile of SP that ignores the cap. You still have to be playing (or AFKing, but that's another issue) to get the SP bonus from the Booster. But for the effort it would normally take to get 1000 SP, you're rewarded with 1500. More SP for same effort = easier. Again, fits the definition of the word quite nicely.
More SP = nope.
There is no option that says "pay X moneys, get Y SP" None. It doesn't exist. There is nothing that just directly gives you more SP. And there shouldn't be.
Both options - Passive and Active Boosters - let you build up a larger amount of SP than would be the case without them, but the time/effort still needs to be spent to make the most out of them.If you buy a 30 day Passive Booster, then look back on your account in a week, you won't have the full 30 days worth of bonus SP yet. If you buy a 7-day Active Booster, activate it then come back after a week without playing, you don't get a stack of SP for buying the Booster.
Thats the point of the OP. IF you are paying for something it should be convenience. Eliminitating the grind is a convenience by this will allow players who wish to to pay for SP that they can earn without playing the game and thus taking up space in a game mode where ppl want to play(hence AFK).
People think that spending time in a game is in itself mandatory to provide content, i saw paying is providing content because paying means you are helping to fund future content. Those who wish to grind are free to do so and still earn just as much SP as the ppl who pay for the convenience of not having to play.
In eve its even more extreme you pay and you grow you character over time no matter how much you play. In fact you can just set skills and never login until those skills are completed as long as you maintain the account. I know because as i type this my eve toon is progressing.
Basically take a piece of that model into Dust by giving the option to pay and not have to play and earn the same SP a person earns while playing. Thus they can avoid the grind and not take up room in the game and still earn the same benefits as someone who plays to earn the same effect. IT isnt P2W because you arent getting ahead of anyone.
The only way you get ahead is because you are earning a booster rated soft cap. But again you have to "play" to earn that extra SP. See why its works without breaking the fundamental fear of F2P becoming P2W.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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174
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Posted - 2013.05.01 23:51:00 -
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Khamelaya wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Khamelaya wrote:Noc Tempre wrote: So expanding on that, if the player is what is important, and he has easy access to every niche through free passive SP... then you have no reason to invite more players to participate unless they are replacing said player in every role.
If you already have said player, then why would you want to swap them? Even for another player with equal SP? Then why have SP at all? AAhahahahaha, seriously? Thats like asking why have more than one weapon. Progression, motivation, rewards, treats. It's the carrot on the stick! It makes you feel like you have achieved something, it makes you feel like you have something to strive for. It's gameplay benefits are choice. The actual SP training system servers a couple of purposes, one its gates the content. It stops players from access the entire game at once. Without the training time, it would be like getting Bioshock Infinite, turning on god mode, disabling player collision detection and letting the player choose what order they'd like to play the levels in. It also means the player gets exposed to new items and gear at a slower rate giving them time to learn what everything does.
But seriously though. You didn't answer my question. Why would you want to swap that player out?
The carrot and the stick makes sense in a game that has nothing else to offer. This game does or do you concede that really after you are done grinding in this game there isnt much else but play a third rate lobby shooter that holds no meaning beyond isolated matches where ppl pretend it really all means something more? (cause you might be on to something there)
Sorry this game isnt rocket science. Maybe the point holds true in EVE but this is DUST it really isnt that complicated if you really feel it is that diffiicult and requires a lot of time to learn this game i suggest you buy Zitro's book (now in a kindle edition)
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
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Posted - 2013.05.02 00:30:00 -
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Khamelaya wrote:
True, the carrot on the stick is an added benefit, but without it, then dust is just the latest quake with a new coat of paint. Having a persistent character that grows over time in line with your play style preferences is central to what makes dust different.
No it's not very hard. For me, or for you. But what if this was the first FPS you had ever played? What if you don't instinctively know the difference between a rifle and a sub-machine gun? There are a lot of items in the game now, you could spend a good deal of time just browsing through them and figuring out what each does. Now double that number, then double it again, then again. When CCP has finished fleshing out racial variants and subtypes of militia, basic, advance, prototype and officer gear...well...let's just say that it's a big number. If you picked up dust for the first time and were told to go fit a drop suit, most people would just give up straight away because there are far too many options and they'd have nothing to base their decisions on. Choice paralysis is bad.
Locked in syndrome is worse. While it may make for variety in some peoples mind, again this isnt EVE where the shard is only limited for large events. OW fleet comps can reach extremely high numbers. New players can be taught to specialize into a very specific role for use because well hey fleet comps are nearly limitless in size you can take a new player in a hyperspecialized role and make them useful.
This is a instanced lobby shooter with fixed player count. There are so many uses for a DS pilot. Guess what happens ppl wont use dedicated DS pilots when having someone who can be specialized in Assault or Logi can just use a militia DS for the quick transport job and let the thing blow up after its served its purpose. Thats the point these specialty roles are limited value utility currently and for a very long time. This makes them less useful in competitive matches and thus limits their ability to play the game.
But what about when the game get 24 v 24 32v32 256v256.
Not happening for a VERY VERY LONG time if ever why?
Because its not stable enough. We do CB's all the time stuff disconnects like crazy. By jenza's own admission they got Internal errors during the first game of the tourney final. The cloesd beta tourney was 16 v 16, you know why CBs are only 8v8 and not 16 v16 now when they were able to host it months ago. ITs not stable enough.
This game has a long way to go before it is stable enough to host large mathces. Even then player counts arent high enough and CCP said they wanted small FPS oriented groups to be able to compete in PC (hence 16v16); (more proof CCP wants us and is trying to cater to us but keep mucking stuff up)..
Point is when you are trying to play the game competitively and be of utility you aren't going to choose a role that limits your ability to play and thus you will see less variety not more. MMO players that try to go for the hyperspecialzed role wil failcascade into nothingness. Don't believe me ask some of these players who used to run dedicated DS pilot, tank, heavy, lav, lazer, stealth scout etc what they will play. The ones who say they will stick to their role or pick a speciality role other than assualt or logi ask them how many CB's they have played.
You will see a correlation i promise you will. |
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