DUST Search - Balance Methodology And The Downfall of Nerfing

Ryder Azorria wrote:

I'm guessing that the words 'power' and 'creep' meen nothing to you?

For future reference, power creep is incredibly dangerous for games like Dust and EVE, and the developers are right to try and avoid it. Additionally, it is much, much easier to nerf one thing than to buff everything else, giving you much more bang for the devs buck.

EDIT: This is a post by CCPs balancing wizard, CCP Fozzie, and explains rather well why nerfing somethings instead of buffing everything is often the best course of action.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why nerf things when you could buff things instead?

This is a question that comes up often in any thread where we are discussing decreasing the power of an item or ship. I can completely understand where it's coming from. Buffing things makes people happy in much larger numbers, it simply feels good to see the effectiveness of your equipment increase. Many other games rely on constantly improving gear to drive engagement in their content and that method of development can work very well for those games.

I'm going to start by quoting my answer to this question from the Heavy Missile thread before Retribution, because what I said there still applies.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

When we are balancing in a game like Eve we always need to be conscious of the danger presented by power creep. In some games where the progression is tied to ever advancing gear stats power creep isn't a big issue as it is built into the whole premise of the game. In a sandbox like Eve player advancement is tied to individual freeform goals and we need to make sure that the tools available are both interesting and balanced. Any time we buff something in Eve, we are nerfing every other item in the game slightly by extension. In a case like this we believe that the best course of action is to adjust the Heavy Missiles downwards to achieve balance.

I would be lying if I said that we never allow power creep in EVE. It's quite simply much much easier to balance upwards and considering how powerful of a tool it is for creating short term customer satisfaction, some power creep is very hard to avoid. However we do need to be very mindful of how much we let ourselves indulge. There are cases where for the long term health of the game ecosystem we simply have to reduce the power of certain items and ships. We believe this is one of those times. I can promise you that we're committed to eating our vegetables and making adjustments either up or down based on our best estimation of what the game needs. We won't decrease the power of items and ships unless we deem it necessary but we also won't forget that our job is to manage the health of the game over the long term. This will not be the last set of "nerfs" you see us make for Odyssey.

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Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 220	Posted - 2013.05.01 15:55:00 - [1] - Quote When a weapon is OP and in your hands, it tends to be fun. Why? Well look at the Viziam currently. It melts people, but has very obvious drawbacks up close. It has a weakness, but its strength is so abornally good that people dont let that get them down. The people getting killed by it however, feel helpless. So they rage and cry for nerfs. This is understandable. The worst feeling in the world is being helpless. But ask yourself something, is that really necessary? Nerfing the weapon makes it less fun to use. People who enjoy the weapon will be disappointed. Something has been taken away from them, and this leads to one part of the audience being dissastisfied. When scout speed was nerfed, this lead to disatisfaction. When heavy HP was nerfed, disatisfaction. When various forms of the AR were nerfed, same deal. Basically anyone who was a fan of something because it was "good" has had something taken away, and is now having less fun than they used to have. So what is the answer to pleasing both sides? BUFFING everything. That may sound crazy, but it has a proven track record of success with almost every major competitive game. LoL, WoW, SC2 are games of broken abilities. But most things are "broken" so it actually ends up making it balanced. Street fighter is another example. Marvel vs Capcom Ultimate is another example -- it's currently the single most popular fighting game in the USA, and is making a strong push for the entire world. It's one of the most uncontestedly "broken" games in existence. So why is it so popular? Because EVERYTHING FEELS GOOD TO USE. This is not a lesson I should have to teach CCP, however. The Dust team, perhaps, but not CCP at large. Ever since the buffs they made to Pirate ships a couple years back CCP has been making strong pushes to basically make everything really damn awesome. BC's with BS sized guns, and most recently a total revamp to the battleships themselves. There are a few groans here and there, but anyone who is actually decent knows how awesome most of the changes coming into that game are. The thing to remember is, a weapon, suit, ability, or whatever is only "broken" if nothing else can possibly fight it. Broken =/= Insanely Good. If you make everything insanely good, then everything is insanely fun to use. As such, I advocate the removal of disappearing bullets. Let projectiles fly, accuracy rating is there for a reason. I advocate saving the Viziam. I advocate a better tactical AR and Assault HMG to combat it. I advocate better heavy dropsuits with increased HP, faster scouts (with fixed hitboxes), and Breach AR's that aren't complete trash. I think Missile tanks/installations should be terrifying as hell. I think if a person is going to sink 2.5 mil into a blaster tank, it should be doing 2.5 mil worth of damage at least. And I think this game should have some ridiculously awesome defensive abilities as well. I think we should damage type specific hardeners to combat a super powered viziam, so you have a chance to get in close and take him down before he melts you. There is nothing wrong with using a hard counter to win a fight. There are a thousand new and interesting ways the game can be balanced without making everything less fun to use by simply nerfing it into oblivion. Its the automatic response most people have, but that doesn't mean its the best possible way to develop a game. Consider this the next time you get angry at a certain weapon, vehicle, or ability. Maybe the issue isn't that their weapon is overperforming. Maybe the issue is that yours is underperforming. And maybe there is a more interesting side-solution that can be implemented as well. Things to consider. Don't ask CCP to nerf your game until its boring for all parties. Ask them to buff it until its awesome for everybody.
Scramble Scrub Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 92	Posted - 2013.05.01 16:11:00 - [2] - Quote No fun allowed. Nerf everything.
Ryder Azorria Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 251	Posted - 2013.05.01 16:15:00 - [3] - Quote I'm guessing that the words 'power' and 'creep' meen nothing to you? For future reference, power creep is incredibly dangerous for games like Dust and EVE, and the developers are right to try and avoid it. Additionally, it is much, much easier to nerf one thing than to buff everything else, giving you much more bang for the devs buck.
Piercing Serenity Faabulous 273	Posted - 2013.05.01 16:21:00 - [4] - Quote I'll leave this right here.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 223	Posted - 2013.05.01 17:16:00 - [5] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: I'm guessing that the words 'power' and 'creep' meen nothing to you? For future reference, power creep is incredibly dangerous for games like Dust and EVE, and the developers are right to try and avoid it. Additionally, it is much, much easier to nerf one thing than to buff everything else, giving you much more bang for the devs buck. EDIT: This is a post by CCPs balancing wizard, CCP Fozzie, and explains rather well why nerfing somethings instead of buffing everything is often the best course of action. CCP Fozzie wrote: Why nerf things when you could buff things instead? This is a question that comes up often in any thread where we are discussing decreasing the power of an item or ship. I can completely understand where it's coming from. Buffing things makes people happy in much larger numbers, it simply feels good to see the effectiveness of your equipment increase. Many other games rely on constantly improving gear to drive engagement in their content and that method of development can work very well for those games. I'm going to start by quoting my answer to this question from the Heavy Missile thread before Retribution, because what I said there still applies. CCP Fozzie wrote: When we are balancing in a game like Eve we always need to be conscious of the danger presented by power creep. In some games where the progression is tied to ever advancing gear stats power creep isn't a big issue as it is built into the whole premise of the game. In a sandbox like Eve player advancement is tied to individual freeform goals and we need to make sure that the tools available are both interesting and balanced. Any time we buff something in Eve, we are nerfing every other item in the game slightly by extension. In a case like this we believe that the best course of action is to adjust the Heavy Missiles downwards to achieve balance. I would be lying if I said that we never allow power creep in EVE. It's quite simply much much easier to balance upwards and considering how powerful of a tool it is for creating short term customer satisfaction, some power creep is very hard to avoid. However we do need to be very mindful of how much we let ourselves indulge. There are cases where for the long term health of the game ecosystem we simply have to reduce the power of certain items and ships. We believe this is one of those times. I can promise you that we're committed to eating our vegetables and making adjustments either up or down based on our best estimation of what the game needs. We won't decrease the power of items and ships unless we deem it necessary but we also won't forget that our job is to manage the health of the game over the long term. This will not be the last set of "nerfs" you see us make for Odyssey. I have heard this before, actually. The problem with this theory is that it doesn't really apply here. Buffing the numbers is only one way to buff, and in some cases it has nothing to do with damage or health at all. That is why I mentioned hard counters like a damage-type specific hardener. There is no power creep there, you have made a choice to buff yourself up against one type of threat and will likely suffer in some other manner as a result of that. But on Manus Peak, it would be insanely good against lasers. Speed, too, is a side solution. You could go for a sneaky, cloaky scout. Or you could go for a fast-as-balls speed demon capable of ninja badassery. Both options would be incredibly fun to play and effective in the right hands. With the heavy, math boosts are the most obvious answer because, well... you are defined as a walking tank, basically. And tanks, above all, absorb damage. That's just what they do. Having ridiculous amounts of HP makes sense there, but because there are side-solutions to beating it such as running circles around the heavy with a scout, its not power creep. It's a hard counter. Where dust is now, however, is in a very uncomfortable spot. Things "work" in their established role, but not enough to be really satisfying. Too often do you come across the helpless feeling. I can see someone with my AR, and I know I can aim well enough to hit him at a certain range, but the game says "No. You can't do that. I don't care about the amount of damage you'll actually do from this range, i forbid it." Thats not satisfying. That's taking away a possible use, however small, from a weapon. With a scout, I can move fast, but if seen even a moment in advance I'm still going to probably bite the dust regardless of whether im more skilled than my opponent or not. If the speed role was made a little more over-the-top, this would all be worth it. As an HMG'r, if im holding the line and we're firing across the bowl, I can't really do much to contribute with SS gone. If they enemy decides to rush us down, then i'm doing something sure, but if they decide not to I am basically useless. If my shots would reach them, I could contribute to the long range war, even if in a small way with greatly reduced DPS. I could be assisting our AR/LR guys slightly, even if nowhere near the same effect. This is the feeling of helplessness I talked about in my first post. Even if I could just graze them I wouldn't feel like this, because I could be assisting someone with the established role of taking them out at that range. Hence my desire to let projectiles be what they are and just fly. So yes, I know of power creep, but I don't think Dust is in danger of that at this point. I believe, if anything, it is having a problem at the far opposite end of the spectrum.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2227	Posted - 2013.05.01 17:19:00 - [6] - Quote Scramble Scrub wrote: No fun allowed. Nerf everything. Correct! this is New Eden, it is a cold and harsh place.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 224	Posted - 2013.05.01 17:20:00 - [7] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Scramble Scrub wrote: No fun allowed. Nerf everything. Correct! this is New Eden, it is a cold and harsh place. If thats true, you should want people to die in more interesting ways :)
Chief Jon Redcorn GHETTOSTAR GALACTICA 10	Posted - 2013.05.01 17:24:00 - [8] - Quote i think CCP gets it, they're not EA who's development is going to be railroaded by cryhards. this weapon is OP, that weapon is OP- sounds pretty balanced to me. instead of them stepping the game down to gungamer/noob's level, gungamer/noob has to step up their game to play dust
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 224	Posted - 2013.05.01 18:37:00 - [9] - Quote From Eve side yes, I think they get it. Sound Wave especially seems to have a very clear vision of how awesome everything should be. Dust side, I just see tons of nerfs and really awkward solutions to problems that don't make any sense (disappearing bullets, again. VERY weird solution). Nerfing of speed, nerfing of HP levels, nerfing of weapon damage, nerfing of ability to damage the MCC with installations (which was done to effectively make skirmish a BF3 conquest clone instead of its own unique beast). I get that this is CCP's first FPS. I get that they are being careful with it. But if you are too careful, you suck the life out of everything and kill it. If something isn't absolutely awesome, it is mediocre. This game has a lot of very, very mediocre things. It needs to crank up the awesome a bit.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1306	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:26:00 - [10] - Quote Simply put, if you fix balance issues with buffs, you flatten the gameplay. 10 "buffs" later and you realize your "balance" now comes from the fact that half the weapons in the game OHK at absurd distances. You basically end up buffing the weapon individuality right out of the game.

Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 752	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:29:00 - [11] - Quote CCP said Viziam is broken. /thread Edit: nvm, that's what I get for only reading the first two parts.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:33:00 - [12] - Quote Incidentally, the solution isn't "nerf everything" either.
Justin Tymes Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:35:00 - [13] - Quote Long wall of text amounting to nothing more than crying that sharpshotter is gone because it shouldn't have existed to begin with. Yes, we get that you're upset you can't shoot from half the map with an AR anymore.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 489	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:47:00 - [14] - Quote nerfing is the nature of the beast. without it, you will just promote monobuilds. where if you don't have X skills in X items you will die ten fold because it isn't the best of the best. heavies being the best suit suited for killing everyone because their weapons are the strongest and have the most health isn't good game mechanic. diversity is hard to allow in a FPS. limiting their use is out of the question and just stating "use better strategy" is too vague. they needed to do something because with the sharpshooting skill before the nerf they were able to out range ARs on most maps. giving them a huge threat range with one of the best weapons. hiding around corners and kill everyone that tried to get through. they could even switch out with a throw away suit and vomit out nanohives and switch back to the heavy. that kind of game mechanic doesn't really support diverse game play. can't wait for this to get aircraft so it becomes MAG
DeadlyAztec11 One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 136	Posted - 2013.05.01 19:51:00 - [15] - Quote Buffing is way better then nerfing.
mollerz s1ck3r Corp 164	Posted - 2013.05.01 20:14:00 - [16] - Quote I agree with you It should be an arms race. Not a nerf race.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 226	Posted - 2013.05.01 20:24:00 - [17] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Edit: Seems to be a bit more to the post than just that. Still countering broken stuff with more broken stuff doesn't make anything balanced at all. Actually, it does. It makes things more interesting, too! And it has been proven by just about every major competitive game in its genre. It's easy to say it won't, but the games I listed are all the most competitive and popular games of their genre and follow that EXACT formula. So clearly, it works. (also, i don't main an AR. I'm just attempting to be fair to the people who do.)
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Unclaimed. 215	Posted - 2013.05.01 20:37:00 - [18] - Quote I just hope CCP isn't waiting for the crying to stop since it never will. I like the idea of letting us balance the game ourselves with counter gear.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 227	Posted - 2013.05.01 20:47:00 - [19] - Quote From a developer standpoint its fairly intimidating trying to please everybody, which is a big part of the problem. Most people when killed will initially cry "BS!" regardless of whether or not it is. Thats just the human state. Unfortunately, most developers feel compelled to try and please what they perceive as the "majority" of their fanbase, so what they hear most often is a call for nerfs. What they don't hear are the people who are perfectly content with the way things are, because they don't feel a need to really post "Yo, im content." as much as an emotionally charged individual who just got run over by a free LAV for the 50th time. The other problem with early adopters of a game is many of them are still wrapped inside of the scrub mindset, which basically means that they will always ask for a developer to eliminate a problem that they themselves do not already know how to overcome. An old, but incredibly good article as it pertains to this type of individual can be read here in their relation to fighting games. The scrub is traditionally the most vocal part of a game's playerbase, especially towards the early life of the community. This can and usually does completely destroy the foundation of a game in its early life, especially if the developers are well intentioned and actually listen to them. It's something of a curse, really.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 538	Posted - 2013.05.01 20:55:00 - [20] - Quote The downfall of a term I have heard and seen used since playing Planetside at release (probably existed before, but when I first saw it) is not something I imagine just happening. However I didn't read it because something that is a product of a crap ton of local systems balancing (game, player psych, business psych, business tactics, developer psych, and developer tactics, etc) I don't think I can just whip up solutions or explanations that handle half the necessary data. So I'm sure as hell not bothering with a random post on a forum with a dramatic title

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 127	Posted - 2013.05.01 21:00:00 - [21] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I'll leave this right here. On a similar note...
Sev Alcatraz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 259	Posted - 2013.05.01 21:08:00 - [22] - Quote Im a tanker ever since, i lived the missiles because they were an area denial weapon and were devastating, but no one was specd in AV back then so missiles were nerfed to the point where they are a complete joke :( tear
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 228	Posted - 2013.05.01 21:25:00 - [23] - Quote Rynx Sinfar wrote: The downfall of a term I have heard and seen used since playing Planetside at release (probably existed before, but when I first saw it) is not something I imagine just happening. However I didn't read it because something that is a product of a crap ton of local systems balancing (game, player psych, business psych, business tactics, developer psych, and developer tactics, etc) I don't think I can just whip up solutions or explanations that handle half the necessary data. So I'm sure as hell not bothering with a random post on a forum with a dramatic title And yet I still got an entire post out of you. Would you like to.... talk... about it?
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 785	Posted - 2013.05.01 23:23:00 - [24] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: That is why I mentioned hard counters like a damage-type specific hardener. There is no power creep there, you have made a choice to buff yourself up against one type of threat and will likely suffer in some other manner as a result of that. This is exactly power creep. Law of unintended consequences will pretty much guarantee that you would inevitably nerf something that you never meant to nerf by buffing a few things to achieve "OP fun times." So then you have to buff those things as well. And so on and so forth. Then you end up with buffing ad nauseum. The first few buffs were really exciting! Wow, everything is going great? Why would anyone not buff? But by the time you start in on your 1,576th buff you really start to wonder why you ever started buffing in the first place. But you just can't stop. No matter how much you try. Baal Roo wrote: Simply put, if you fix balance issues with buffs, you flatten the gameplay. 10 "buffs" later and you realize your "balance" now comes from the fact that half the weapons in the game OHK at absurd distances. You basically end up buffing the weapon individuality right out of the game. Insanely high damage =/= better ganeplay At this point you could always buff hit points. Wait. You would have to buff hit points. Everything must be buffed. Himiko Kuronaga wrote: An old, but incredibly good article as it pertains to this type of individual can be read in their relation to fighting games. Yes, there will always be people that can't learn the counter attack or the block. There will always be those turn to forums to complain before even bothering to find out if there is a counter. Article is fun read especially in terms of 1 v 1 competition. But Dust is about large scale warfare. And in war you need your pawns as much as you need your rooks. The developer's ambitions are to do much more than churn out a slew of 16 v 16 instant battles for players to jump into and shoot each other for ***** and giggles. So, while the nerf hammer is kind of a downer, it does help the game makers (hopefully) to keep things under control while adding more and more to the game. Devs have mentioned that they are often torn when making balancing decisions about whether they should balance for what is in the game now, then change it for new content, or balance according to what will be in the game eventually, and let players live with some imbalances until then. Dropping the buff bomb on Dust 514 could very easily get entirely out of hand and mess up things like the player market, ties to eve, PvE, planned future content. And I would rather live through some nerfing and get all of the stuff that we are hoping to get in this game as soon as possible.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 280	Posted - 2013.05.01 23:34:00 - [25] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I'll leave this right here. Take notes CCP. Does your game introduce good counter play? Are their options for players the game mechanic is being used on, or just the user? Are the valid counter tactics to what gets introduced? You know what's wrong and what's right with Dust 514, you've alluded to fixing some for the problems, but not all. You know exactly what I'm talking about
Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 278	Posted - 2013.05.02 02:45:00 - [26] - Quote This is what we should be working towards for new players. TL;DR: We need more Mass Drivers
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 288	Posted - 2013.05.02 02:49:00 - [27] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: This is what we should be working towards for new players. TL;DR: We need more Mass Drivers I think the AR is the real FOO strategy here. It's familiar, easy to use and can carry you for a while. But when you come across something like an HAV, Mass Driver, or HMG, your FOO strategy needs to be adjusted. Yet instead of adjusting your strategy, you AR users ** and moan for nerfs on the forms and you get your way!**
Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 278	Posted - 2013.05.02 03:06:00 - [28] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: This is what we should be working towards for new players. TL;DR: We need more Mass Drivers I think the AR is the real FOO strategy here. It's familiar, easy to use and can carry you for a while. But when you come across something like an HAV, Mass Driver, or HMG, your FOO strategy needs to be adjusted. Yet instead of adjusting your strategy, you AR users ** and moan for nerfs on the forms and you get your way! I wouldn't generalize so much. I'm an AR user, but I don't "*** and moan for nerfs" as you say. My experience has shown me that there are a few different ways to approach different weapons. Attacking another AR user is different in attacking a MD user in both approach and pressure. I try to make MD users panic and use their rounds quickly - that's when they're the weakest. That won't happen with an AR user (Usually) because of the clip they have in their primary and secondary weapon. So for them, it a matter of catching them reloading or switching weapons and conserving my shots. I think "Run and Gun" is the real FOO strategy. You can fit your dropsuit with two damage mods and a duvolle and run though skirmish no problem. But try that in a corp battle and you're toast. Corp battles - and by that extension PC - is the real brick wall here
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 288	Posted - 2013.05.02 03:13:00 - [29] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Cosgar wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: This is what we should be working towards for new players. TL;DR: We need more Mass Drivers I think the AR is the real FOO strategy here. It's familiar, easy to use and can carry you for a while. But when you come across something like an HAV, Mass Driver, or HMG, your FOO strategy needs to be adjusted. Yet instead of adjusting your strategy, you AR users ** and moan for nerfs on the forms and you get your way! I wouldn't generalize so much. I'm an AR user, but I don't "* and moan for nerfs" as you say. My experience has shown me that there are a few different ways to approach different weapons. Attacking another AR user is different in attacking a MD user in both approach and pressure. I try to make MD users panic and use their rounds quickly - that's when they're the weakest. That won't happen with an AR user (Usually) because of the clip they have in their primary and secondary weapon. So for them, it a matter of catching them reloading or switching weapons and conserving my shots. I think "Run and Gun" is the real FOO strategy. You can fit your dropsuit with two damage mods and a duvolle and run though skirmish no problem. But try that in a corp battle and you're toast. Corp battles - and by that extension PC - is the real brick wall here You generalized first by comparing the MD to a noob tube, which it's not. Even if you personally don't cry for nerfs, there are quite a few AR players on here that do. Which is why this build is so **** up and imbalanced now. Instead of counter mechanics, and perfect imbalance, there's no real meta game and the fit of the month became the fit of the build. Even if run and gun is the FOO strategy, there's nothing to effectively counter it when that strategy only gets better because of imbalanced game mechanics like Light Weapon Sharpshooter and stacked damage mods. Everything this game was intended has been changed because of that.
Aegis Scientiafide Planetary Response Organisation 13	Posted - 2013.05.02 03:37:00 - [30] - Quote So instead of nerfing one aspect of a game and fixing the balance issue, try to buff everything else (and pray that it remains balanced)!



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