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Do no skill weapons have a place in a skill based game?

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Skihids The Tritan Industries 1085	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:36:00 - [1] - Quote Way back in the closed beta I posted a thread stating that GÇ£Challenge is what makes a game fun.GÇ¥ The specifics were about the then hotly contested strafe speed and hit-scan mechanics, but the general point was that to be enjoyable long term a game of skill should be just that. The weapons and controls should require and allow a player to apply their personal skill to the game respectively. Free kill weapons are fun for a time, but that fun wears off quickly due to the lack of any challenge. ItGÇÖs like a slot machine that pays off with every pull of the lever. Similarly itGÇÖs extremely frustrating not to be able to apply the skills you do possess due to clunky control systems (hence the many threads on that topic). That is not to say that every system has to be balanced against each other directly at every range as some AR proponents occasionally request, but rather that every system needs to be balanced in terms of the personal skill required vs. its effectiveness. For example, not long ago the two second Locus grenades caused an uproar when they required no skill to toss and were powerful enough to OHK any opponent. There was a perceived imbalance between the skill needed to panic toss a grenade and the effectiveness of the weapon (OHK). CCP quickly reversed the hotfix. Skill at cooking grenades and planning when to do it were reintroduced to balance their effectiveness. That brings me to the current debate about the Swarm Launchers, especially vs. Dropships. While GÇ£realisticGÇ¥ in the sense of a war simulator, the SL requires no player skill to operate. All the user has to do is point the weapon in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger once lock-on is achieved. ItGÇÖs fire and forget. The user can run off and do something else at that point, while his missiles perform their auto-tracking and auto-hit. The dropship pilot has no counter, never mind a skill based counter to this weapon. The only thing he can do is tank the damage or run away out of range. The recent afterburner hotfix nerf has greatly hobbled the ability to do the latter. A dropship pilot cannot apply his skill at flying to avoid the SL, he can only cower far away. So does the SL have a place in a skill based game? If so, how do you balance a weapon that takes no skill to use against its potential to deal damage? If you tried to reduce its damage to equal the skill required for use you would end up with a worthless weapon system. You could perhaps introduce an equally no skill counter. In this case it could be a chaff launcher. The SL user sees a dropship and fires his missiles, the pilot sees the missiles and fires his chaff launcher to counter them. The problem I see with that is that the slot balance isnGÇÖt really balanced. Any infantry unit could pick up any no skill weapon (assuming there are more varieties introduced) and target a dropship which would have to carry a counter for every variety as they canGÇÖt hot swap in battle as infantry unit can. So is there a place for the SL in DUST? If so, what would it take to balance it? What are your thoughts?
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 578	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:42:00 - [2] - Quote Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill?
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 607	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:45:00 - [3] - Quote Show me where the SL touched you on the doll
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 795	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:47:00 - [4] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 578	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:49:00 - [5] - Quote gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times I would consider using cover to be a skill, as well as common sense. Still won't save you from all the infantry who know where you are everytime you fire the thing.
Denak Kalamari Ozark Cartel White Mountain Coalition 93	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:50:00 - [6] - Quote I think the Swarm Launcher is a little bit dumb against dropships, especially after the afterburner nerf. And with all the problems with tracking and locking on, I would suggest the following: Remove the lock-on, and instead make the swarm launchers self-guided. Which means you have to stay zoomed in and aiming at the part where you want your swarm missiles to hit. With higher levels the speed at which the swarms respond to your movements increase, along with the regular increased damage and projectile speed. People might complain: 'lolrpgnoob' since with this mechaning the SL could be used as an anti-infantry weapon, but I see no problem with this.
Cpt Murd0ck Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 101	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:50:00 - [7] - Quote Nerf it
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 607	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:51:00 - [8] - Quote gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times You say that as if it isn't balanced, there's no way for it to kill infantry and therefore outside of cqb scenarios the user is helpless and it also has a huge chance to give away where it's launched from
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3224	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:54:00 - [9] - Quote Might be worth beta testing a change to swarm launchers that makes the user have to guide and steer the missiles once their in the air. An equally no skill counter for dropships though would suffice.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 578	Posted - 2013.03.23 21:57:00 - [10] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Might be worth beta testing a change to swarm launchers that makes the user have to guide and steer the missiles once their in the air. An equally no skill counter for dropships though would suffice. like in Dark Sector, and Ty The tasmanian Tiger ,with their Boomerangs o Death?

Crimson Moon V Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 242	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:01:00 - [11] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times I would consider using cover to be a skill, as well as common sense. Still won't save you from all the infantry who know where you are everytime you fire the thing. situational awareness=/=Weapon skill. The SL takes no skill and does an insane amount of damage. It needs to be looked at. If non skill AV does this much damage then tankers/pilots really need to worried about the skill based AV we will be getting in the future. This is coming from an infantry only player btw. You will never see me in a tank/dropship unless I stole it.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 682	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:01:00 - [12] - Quote As both a user of Swarm Launchers (Non Militia) and Dropships, I feel like I'm being pulled apart by two horses. One side tells me that the ability to put a square over a bigger square then let missiles do all the work really is distasteful. The other side says that firing things with the most travel time at an airborne target with no locking function is a worthless item. What you have to do is you have to re invent the weapon as a whole. Swarm Launcher needs dumbfire back and limits to locking. Reworking the Lock I personally think that locking shouldn't be a fire and forget sort of deal. I think that the user should have to maintain the lock or at least be forced to control the missiles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptoRGpUa_Hw Something similar to that. Another system I've considered, is to have the rockets move faster, but have no pre-fire locking system. In order to "lock on" to a target, the missiles have to get close enough to seek the target. So the person must dumbfire the rockets and get them close enough to the target to get a lock. It prevents people from very far away getting in the shots with nothing at risk. Both methods would require foresight and skill which the swarms need in order to be a more viable weapon. It's a nerf against dropships but not other vehicles.
Taarec Zero Tolerance. 0	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:02:00 - [13] - Quote Just implement counter-flares, problem solved. The later you activate them, the more chance of successfully shaking off the swarm, but you risk getting blown up if you're too late with it.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 797	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:05:00 - [14] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times You say that as if it isn't balanced, there's no way for it to kill infantry and therefore outside of cqb scenarios the user is helpless and it also has a huge chance to give away where it's launched from I say it because i despise that troll and personali I think swarms are rather well balanced right now, the only thing that needs fixing is their tracking which is frankly ridiculous, and the lack of counters for dropships which are effectively the pinata of the sky as soon as anyone gets AV of any kind.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 2133	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:06:00 - [15] - Quote I find it funny because I fly an armor dropship, which are weak to swarms, yet swarms give me pretty much no trouble unless I get ganged up on by proto swarms. It's very easy to find cover, and if the map doesn't have cover, maybe you should think twice about calling in a dropship.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 579	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:09:00 - [16] - Quote I'm a troll? And you despise me?
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 579	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:11:00 - [17] - Quote Crimson Moon V wrote: Situational awareness=/=Weapon skill. . Situational awareness is important with all weapons, but I would say it's more important with SLs because they have to lock on and can't just dumb-fire.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 797	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:14:00 - [18] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: I'm a troll? And you despise me? not you, i was talking about vermaaks "show me on the doll where the swarm launcher touched you" and I hate the troll not the troller
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 579	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:18:00 - [19] - Quote gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: I'm a troll? And you despise me? not you, i was talking about vermaaks "show me on the doll where the swarm launcher touched you" and I hate the troll not the troller Yay!
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 607	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:19:00 - [20] - Quote gbghg wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: gbghg wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times You say that as if it isn't balanced, there's no way for it to kill infantry and therefore outside of cqb scenarios the user is helpless and it also has a huge chance to give away where it's launched from I say it because i despise that troll and personally I think swarms are rather well balanced right now, the only thing that needs fixing is their tracking which is frankly ridiculous, and the lack of counters for dropships which are effectively the pinata of the sky as soon as anyone gets AV of any kind. So this thread is pointless, we already know this Sl is broken outside of fighting tanks

Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 580	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:24:00 - [21] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: So this thread is pointless, we already know this Sl is broken outside of fighting tanks Basically.
Crimson Moon V Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 242	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:26:00 - [22] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Crimson Moon V wrote: Situational awareness=/=Weapon skill. . Situational awareness is important with all weapons, but I would say it's more important with SLs because they have to lock on and can't just dumb-fire. -_- You can't claim a no skill weapon takes skill because of situational awareness. That's just common sense. The weapon itself takes no skill to use. If you are on my screen you are getting hit. I use the std swarms from time to time and just smash tanks. Blew up Exmaples tank with std swarms and damage mods. By myself with no squad... SL needs to be looked at ccp.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 580	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:29:00 - [23] - Quote LAVs and Drop Ships need to be looked at
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 608	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:48:00 - [24] - Quote I proposed this a while back but what I had in mind was making lock ons sig radius based, tank lock on time without shield extenders change but the rest will
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 983	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:38:00 - [25] - Quote Man, I thought this thread was going to be about lasers.... Anyway, being that I've recently picked up dropship piloting...the swarm launchers aren't so bad. They have limited range and won't OHK an equipped dropship. Swarm launcher users are debilitated since they have the SL as a primary and only a sidearm to fend off other infantry with. It is hard bringing out your SL because you are now easy kills for infantry. The only time you're protected is if you are launching SLs from the spawn. But a counter to that from the dropship is simple.....stay away from flying close to their spawn. Dropship pilots do need a lock-on warning of some sort instead of a swirl in the wind. BF3 was good with that, because you got the sound that you were being locked on and another when the rockets were let go. They also added flares which this game doesn't have either.
Nemo Bluntz Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:44:00 - [26] - Quote Skihids wrote: the SL requires no player skill to operate. All the user has to do is point the weapon in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger once lock-on is achieved. ItGÇÖs fire and forget. Hahahahahahahaha. ....hahahahahahahaha. Have you ever really tried using one, dude? Like, effectively against a tank that has buffs and a pilot that can operate one? Oh God.
Micheal JF IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 4	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:51:00 - [27] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Man, I thought this thread was going to be about lasers.... Anyway, being that I've recently picked up dropship piloting...the swarm launchers aren't so bad. They have limited range and won't OHK an equipped dropship. Swarm launcher users are debilitated since they have the SL as a primary and only a sidearm to fend off other infantry with. It is hard bringing out your SL because you are now easy kills for infantry. The only time you're protected is if you are launching SLs from the spawn. But a counter to that from the dropship is simple.....stay away from flying close to their spawn. Dropship pilots do need a lock-on warning of some sort instead of a swirl in the wind. BF3 was good with that, because you got the sound that you were being locked on and another when the rockets were let go. They also added flares which this game doesn't have either. I agree 1 launcher is nothing to worry about but about 6 of them can be rather frustrating and, since everyone has them they all want to use them when the see you in the air.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 608	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:57:00 - [28] - Quote Just gonna throw this out there, i haven't died to swarms in my armor dropship
J Lav Lost-Legion Orion Empire 38	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:59:00 - [29] - Quote As to the OP, Yes no skill weapons have their place. CCP's challenge, if they are trying to make a skill game, is to create greater rewards for more skill intensive weaponry being used in their correct circumstances. So the SL is functioning correctly, however I do feel it needs to be able to switch to a Dumbfire option, with reduced damage, firing only one missile at a time. This could be a feature on a higher meta launcher, as an option on a single launcher. It's easy enough to make it's effectiveness against infantry situational.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3200	Posted - 2013.03.24 00:20:00 - [30] - Quote Proto-launcher + no lock + point blank = Dead Sagaris in less than 3 seconds or maybe some of you tankers forgot those days. Anyways... 1 Keep the lock on swarms. 2 Reduce Lock Box size by 1/4th this would greatly increase the difficulty of locking onto a target. Unless variant, do not give it a larger box between meta levels. 3 Keep the angle shots, you have no idea how hard it is at times to get that swarm off just right to hit a tank around the corner, under the bridge or getting it around that truck that just happens to be in the way. 4 Give ALL vehicles the tools to break locks and warnings of being locked up. 5 Give Infantry a Dumbfire missile launcher (IE Plasma Launcher) that does FAR more damage than the SL. 6 Give Infantry a Fire and Forget missile launcher (Minmatar) Does less damage than the pure unguided one but more than the swarm. If no target is near the missile's range it wont track. 7 Reduce tracking ability of the swarms, make it possible to break the tracking in faster vehicles such as the LAV, and Dropships and other future high speed craft. 8 Give infantry a rapid fire rocket AV launcher that does less damage than the swarm but makes up for it for higher refire and larger reserve ammo (Amarrian) 9 Make EMP pulses an option for vehicles (caldari) (Disables missiles and nearby devices) 10 Make Flares an option for vehicles (minmatar) (Missiles track it instead, Lights up all targets in the area) 11 Make Smoke screen an option for vehicles (gallente) (Obscures view, locks and detracks missiles, also provides infantry cover) 12 Make strobes an option for vehicles (amarr) (blinds missiles and nearby targets) 13 Give infantry laser painters that increases homing range of AV Grenades, Fire and Foreget Missiles, and Swarm Launchers. 14 Give missile launchers, missile functionality by allowing it to lock onto Vehicles and retain dumb-fire when not triggering down. 15 Add rapid firing Rocket Turrets both large and small and installations for dumb-fire higher damage. 16 Give forge guns a tracer effect 17 Make smoke trails from a swarm launcher persist longer. 18 When weapon customization comes out allow launchers to be able to correct 'some' weaknesses (IE infrared designator to beat smoke for example, Fuel Catalyzer leaves no smoke trail ect ect) 19 Fix swarm launcher noise, I have only heard the launcher 'pop' once ever, it is a very distinctive and very scary noise for a tank pilot. 20 Give Railguns a tracer effect 21 Give blasters a tracer effect 22 Fix all turret off bore turret firing 23 Give Rail-Guns a higher zoom functionality 24 Possibly make railguns disable movement or hamper movement after/during firing it. 25 Shorten blaster range marginally 26 Similar to infantry re-roll the turrets to be more like infantry, specific turrets and a family of turret upgrades. For example Blaster Turret Operation Decrease Rate of Heat 5% Hybrid Sharpshooter - Increase Range 5% 27 Additional Shuffeling of skills around to make it intuitive and easier to get to heavier turrets, possibly add medium turrets for intermediate work but cost 2 light turret slots. 28 Add A vehicle depot OMS structure, it will allow you to order a vehicle (about 3x than an RDV call down) or return one to inventory. Hostile vehicles brought to it are considered captured and yours if you return one you hacked. The Vehicle depot can be accessed by vehicles when in range. 29 Add an Air pad variant to the vehicle depot to make landing easier 30 Possibly reduce lock range and travel range, have both effected by sharpshooter for light weapons. It should total out to be a buff after both levels of skill are factored in. and Finally LEARN TO DRIVE A TANK! I took on a team that had 7 swarm launchers and didn't lose my tank to it. The amazing concept of 'COVER' works both ways. Its not a magical happenstance that a swarm launcher just suddenly rounds 3 corners and nails you. Also HAVs are infantry support, learn how to be a mechanized infantry group. You'd be amazed how hard it is for an AV to do his job with anti-infantry infantry breathing down his neck. As for Drop-Ship pilots I feel for you a bit on the larger more open maps with no air los cover and no other tools to protect you which is entirely why I dont ever call one down on maps like manus peak and skim junction speically since the AI railguns love blowing my DS up . However Line harvest has plenty of cover you should try to utilize.



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