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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1088
   |
Posted - 2013.03.24 00:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
The specifics here are about the SL, but I'd like to get back to the general case.
Using the slot machine analogy,
1) How frequently should the machine payout (get a hit) for every pull of the lever?
2) How often should that result in a jackpot (target kill)? |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
582
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 00:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
Skihids wrote:The specifics here are about the SL, but I'd like to get back to the general case.
Using the slot machine analogy,
1) How frequently should the machine payout (get a hit) for every pull of the lever?
2) How often should that result in a jackpot (target kill)?
Are you calling the SL a luck based weapon? Not sure I'm understanding here, cause SLs don't magically do more damage every now and then so... |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
3200
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Posted - 2013.03.24 00:25:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Skihids wrote:The specifics here are about the SL, but I'd like to get back to the general case.
Using the slot machine analogy,
1) How frequently should the machine payout (get a hit) for every pull of the lever?
2) How often should that result in a jackpot (target kill)? Are you calling the SL a luck based weapon? Not sure I'm understanding here, cause SLs don't magically do more damage every now and then so...
Ohhh just like the AV grenade they do very rarely. One shotted a mag with a lucky no track throw of an AV nade into the radiator, usually the nade homes in on a corner and does far less damage. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2107
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Posted - 2013.03.24 01:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Crimson Moon V wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Crimson Moon V wrote:
Situational awareness=/=Weapon skill. .
Situational awareness is important with all weapons, but I would say it's more important with SLs because they have to lock on and can't just dumb-fire. -_- You can't claim a no skill weapon takes skill because of situational awareness. That's just common sense. The weapon itself takes no skill to use. If you are on my screen you are getting hit. I use the std swarms from time to time and just smash tanks. Blew up Exmaples tank with std swarms and damage mods. By myself with no squad... SL needs to be looked at ccp.
You can't just ignore the importance of situational awareness when a particular weapon requires more of it than any other AV option.
You have to pay FAR more attention to those details than you do with most other weapons.
Swarm Launchers are the Shotgun of AV weapons. The lock-on makes them a "no skill" weapon in the same way the high damage and spread makes Shotguns a "no skill" weapon. But there are plenty of players who try using a Shotgun and can never get close enough to really hurt the target. And there are plenty of players whose Swarms spend all their time hitting dirt and buildings, or burning out without catching their target.
It's not that you need situational awareness that makes these weapons require skill. You ALWAYS need situational awareness to be a good player. But with Shotguns, and with Swarm Launchers, situational awareness becomes a much higher priority and you need to be MORE aware of the wider tactical situation.
TL;DR The skills required are different from the usual "gun game" skills of "pro" players, but the weapon still requires skill. |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
1050
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Posted - 2013.03.24 02:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
Taarec wrote:Just implement counter-flares, problem solved.
The later you activate them, the more chance of successfully shaking off the swarm, but you risk getting blown up if you're too late with it. that would require a new build to implement that.
A dropships speed was the only current counter they had against swarms. Now they don't even have that.
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Cpt Murd0ck
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
105
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Posted - 2013.03.24 02:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
The skill with an SL comes in the form of skill at surviving with a scrambler pistol and only AV nades. |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 02:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill?
think this about sums it up
SL users go splat REAL easily, i love em |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 02:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times 
the SL missles will hit the cover. it's like they see a wall and think "pfff, i can go through that" |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 02:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Crimson Moon V wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:gbghg wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times I would consider using cover to be a skill, as well as common sense. Still won't save you from all the infantry who know where you are everytime you fire the thing. situational awareness=/=Weapon skill. The SL takes no skill and does an insane amount of damage. It needs to be looked at. If non skill AV does this much damage then tankers/pilots really need to worried about the skill based AV we will be getting in the future. This is coming from an infantry only player btw. You will never see me in a tank/dropship unless I stole it.
i prefer my forge gun, sniping snipers with it makes it a TON of fun, oh yeah, and it's awesome at swatting dropships and LAV's
tanks though? bob and weave, gotta bob and weave |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
267
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 02:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:gbghg wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Try standing in front of a tank while getting a lock-on. Try locking-on to anything with infantry shooting at you. What was that about no skill? Try cover, and vermaak it touched me all over, in fact I got touched multiple times You say that as if it isn't balanced, there's no way for it to kill infantry and therefore outside of cqb scenarios the user is helpless and it also has a huge chance to give away where it's launched from I say it because i despise that troll and personally I think swarms are rather well balanced right now, the only thing that needs fixing is their tracking which is frankly ridiculous, and the lack of counters for dropships which are effectively the pinata of the sky as soon as anyone gets AV of any kind.
lol, they DO swing when i hit them with my forge gun |
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General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
267
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Posted - 2013.03.24 03:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Proto-launcher + no lock + point blank = Dead Sagaris in less than 3 seconds or maybe some of you tankers forgot those days.
Anyways...
5 Give Infantry a Dumbfire missile launcher (IE Plasma Launcher) that does FAR more damage than the SL.
16 Give forge guns a tracer effect
.
tottally agree with everything else saber, however, for #5-it's called the forge gun
and #16, why would it have a tracer?, it's basically a rail gun, going to fast to see, you can pretty much find who shot it at you, the fat suit standing around praying you don't notice him as he can't really move and shoot at the same time |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
609
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Posted - 2013.03.24 03:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
General Tiberius1 wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Proto-launcher + no lock + point blank = Dead Sagaris in less than 3 seconds or maybe some of you tankers forgot those days.
Anyways...
5 Give Infantry a Dumbfire missile launcher (IE Plasma Launcher) that does FAR more damage than the SL.
16 Give forge guns a tracer effect
. tottally agree with everything else saber, however, for #5-it's called the forge gun and #16, why would it have a tracer?, it's basically a rail gun, going to fast to see, you can pretty much find who shot it at you, the fat suit standing around praying you don't notice him as he can't really move and shoot at the same time
The plasma launcher would be useless if it did sub swarm launcher damage |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
3201
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Posted - 2013.03.24 03:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Plasma Launcher doesn't charge up last I heard about it.
Its also a light weapon. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1088
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 04:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Perhaps a good part of my opinion that the SL is a no skill weapon comes in its use against dropships rather than HAVs as dropships are far more exposed than tanks. You may need to get close to a tank to get LoS on an experienced driver, but it's trivial to get LoS on a dropship hanging in the sky. You don't have to put yourself at any risk to do so. You could be hanging back at one of your objectives protected by other infantry and just send flight after flight. I'm thinking specifically of someone holding point "A" on Manus Peak being able to cover the whole map with very little exposure to enemy fire. The SL has a huge range advantage over a dropship's small turrets. The SL could have several flights off before the dropship came within small blaster turret range of the SL user and run under cover when it arrived.
I like that people are coming up with ways to make the SL a more player skilled weapon.
A big problem I see with it is that an auto hit weapon is that it doesn't present much of a player challenge. It's like bumper bowling. I don't see people posting a video montage of their leet SL skills. I think anyone who did would get laughed off the forums in the same way as if they bragged about their score at bumper bowling. Yes, the SL serves a purpose, but I think it would be far better for both sides if the weapon required more player skill to operate. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.03.24 05:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Show me where the SL touched you on the doll
^this
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Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1088
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 07:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
low genius wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Show me where the SL touched you on the doll ^this
Must everyone trot out this tired trope every time balance is discussed?
I didn't call for it to be removed, I asked if it were appropriate to have a no skill weapon in a skill based FPS. The SL certainly exhibits no skill properties, especially vs. dropships. But hey, if no skill weapons are fine lets let them lock on to dropsuits as well. You wouldn't mind that because they are so vulnerable to CQC and woud take great skill to lock on o a running merc who is close up. It would have the same challenges as the laser so no complaints about not having vulnerabilities.
Perhaps it could be a variant that sacrifices two missiles for the added scanner tech to lock on to the smaller signature of a dropsuit. That way it would take two flights to kill a top tier dropsuit. |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2013.03.24 08:21:00 -
[47] - Quote
Skihids wrote:low genius wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Show me where the SL touched you on the doll ^this Must everyone trot out this tired trope every time balance is discussed? I didn't call for it to be removed, I asked if it were appropriate to have a no skill weapon in a skill based FPS. The SL certainly exhibits no skill properties, especially vs. dropships. But hey, if no skill weapons are fine lets let them lock on to dropsuits as well. You wouldn't mind that because they are so vulnerable to CQC and woud take great skill to lock on o a running merc who is close up. It would have the same challenges as the laser so no complaints about not having vulnerabilities. Perhaps it could be a variant that sacrifices two missiles for the added scanner tech to lock on to the smaller signature of a dropsuit. That way it would take two flights to kill a top tier dropsuit.
or you realize that there is skill in using them properly, calculating where the target is going to be, where the missiles are going to impact them, obstructions, speed. it's a lot harder than the point and shoot forge gun when you start really getting into it. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
682
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Posted - 2013.03.24 08:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:
or you realize that there is skill in using them properly, calculating where the target is going to be, where the missiles are going to impact them, obstructions, speed. it's a lot harder than the point and shoot forge gun when you start really getting into it.
I have SP in the gun and I'm going to have to disagree with ya there. |
Heathen Bastard
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2013.03.24 08:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Heathen Bastard wrote:
or you realize that there is skill in using them properly, calculating where the target is going to be, where the missiles are going to impact them, obstructions, speed. it's a lot harder than the point and shoot forge gun when you start really getting into it.
I have SP in the gun and I'm going to have to disagree with ya there.
forge gun or swarms? forge gun is just leading the target, something you do in pretty much any other game as a standard. swarms will self-fly into buildings if you don't fire them at the right angles and are not even capable of being used against infantry unlike the OHKO forge guns. |
TheMarkOf22
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
81
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Posted - 2013.03.24 10:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
When they take blast radius off tanks and dropships then you can complain, hitting someone when your crosshair is never actually on them isn't skill now either. |
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trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
234
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Posted - 2013.03.24 11:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
I completely agree on swarm launchers being a no skill weapon in the sense you mean it. Of course, a good SL user knows his game and the targets game too, so situational and tactical skill matters.
I contest the notion of having all weapons require skill in dust. I'd personally have missile tanks lock like swarms do in order to add a no-skill weapon in game. This would suit a lot of the older player base and provide a role to e.g. those EVE pilots who can activate a module but are not used to aiming in an FPS.
Tactical play should have it's place in game, be it powerful logistics or guided missiles. The drawbacks of both mechanics are clear: gungame is always more important than slow repairs but repairs can matter in keeping up the pace, guided missiles are annoying but instant applied, infantry killer forge guns are plain scarier. |
Jump Up
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.03.24 13:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
Taarec wrote:Just implement counter-flares, problem solved.
The later you activate them, the more chance of successfully shaking off the swarm, but you risk getting blown up if you're too late with it.
exactly. dropships should be able to equip a countermeasures module. basic would have flares, enhanced would have flares and a lock on warning and complex comes with all that and a cappuccino dispenser, i don't know.
yeah, complex comes with more flares. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
804
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Posted - 2013.03.24 14:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jump Up wrote:Taarec wrote:Just implement counter-flares, problem solved.
The later you activate them, the more chance of successfully shaking off the swarm, but you risk getting blown up if you're too late with it. exactly. dropships should be able to equip a countermeasures module. basic would have flares, enhanced would have flares and a lock on warning and complex comes with all that and a cappuccino dispenser, i don't know. yeah, complex comes with more flares.
I bet you that with a week of countermeasures being implemented that they're will be a load of threads saying "nerf countermeasures, the dropships aren't dying to my swarms" and then ccp will listen to the horde of angry SL users and dropships shall end up in the same ****** place again. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
3208
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Posted - 2013.03.24 16:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Well I will say this, When I run into a really good drop ship pilot (this is very rare) they usually force me into using forge guns instead. The last one did no appreciated that I rammed all fours shots of the assault forge magazine into his ship.
There is a flight method out there that does make you extremely hard to kill a drop-ship from swarms.
It would be hypocritical of me of saying to get good with the dropship though, I haven't achieved that level of success yet, I can stop one swarm launcher from killing me most of the time not 4-5 like that one guy did. |
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