i think their should be a variant of the that could be a sidearm but making all ARs a sidearm is a little extreme.

i think their should be a variant of the that could be a sidearm but making all ARs a sidearm is a little extreme.

I love it, hell I suggested something similar, but I think it'll recive a lot of hate

The Black Eagle Scout Suit has that as standard. It comes at a high cost though as you lose the low power slots. Besides the Shotgun and AR combination the suit itself is nothing to shout about. The weapons are effectively standard and Only The BE AR can be in the Side Arm Slot, replacement menu only lets you choose existing Side Arms.

It is Pretty but so what? Like a Hat in Team Fortress 2 I suppose.

The existing solution is to Skill up in SMGs. Higher level variants can take down many Mercs in close quarters. If you respecify an Assault Rifle to fit that Side Arm Slot you will essentially have an SMG anyway.

I really don't see CCP/Shanghai changing their view on it nor would I want them to.

This is pretty much what I suggested, but the thread got buried

The point of this thread is to let full auto Ars go into a secondary slot

a secondary is a weapon which can go in the place of your primary but is different in a way that maked.it the first choice for most situations.

ARs are useless against vehicles. ARs normally get eaten alive against HMGs or SMGs or Shottys in CQC. ARs get raped by good LRs and snipers if they can't get close enough.

This suggestion sounds good on paper but wouldn't pass battlefield inspection, I think. You'd give a HMG guy the ability to swap to a mid-range weapon? So what if you keep the CPU/PG the same...He loses 30-something shields and can **** nearly everyone in mid and close combat. How about a Sniper? So he snipes until ANYONE gets close enough to hit him with anything but another Sniper and then flops out his Duvolle and kicks their half dead ass.

You say it would let everyone focus on their niche but it sounds like all it does is make every niche that isn't mid range obsolete mid range combatants. Good for everyone except guys who currently use ARs. ARs are SUPPOSED to be the most common.

So you are saying allow the GEK and Duvolle to be fitted as secondary. That just doesn't make sense. If you want to use an AR then use an AR. If you want to be a sniper then stay away from heavy combat. If you want to be CQC then stay in tight quarters. that seems pretty simple. You can't have the best of both worlds. Players are supposed to decide on a role they want to fill, not be able to fill multiple roles as one class. Pick your class based on your preferred play style and perfect it. I don't see a problem with how the weapons are set up currently. Players that are good at their role are effective. There have been plenty of times where I've been trying to get away from a shotgun scout and wasn't able to. When you do what you're supposed to with your weapon of choice it's effective. If you're running around in the open with a shotgun you deserve to be killed quickly, and the same goes for snipers that aren't hiding somewhere distant. If you don't choose to use a weapon that is effective at mid range, then don't get into that range. The secondary is a last ditch effort weapon, not a weapon to fill your class is weak. Every class is supposed to have its weakness.

Notice what you said: AR users can use the AR. But snipers HAVE to run, and CQC HAS to hide. What determines this? The weapon one uses.

No. A sniper needs distance ONLY when he needs to snipe, and a CQCer has to hide only when he's out of range and exposed.
It's the weapon that defines the terms of the circumstance.

Watch as you make my case for me. Please if you will, answer me these questions:

What difference does it make if you shoot someone with a scout suit using an AR on top of a mountain, or down by an objective? It's still just a scout suit using an AR correct? What unfair advantage does a scout suit with an AR have?

If that scout suit was sniping from the top of a mountain, and had an AR as a sidearm, what difference would that AR make then? So if you go up the mountain to stop that scout suit from sniping, what difference would it make if he pulled out an AR to defend himself, or pulled out an SMG or some other weapon?
You're the one in the assault suit. You have the advantage do you not? Even if he pulled out an AR, he is still likely to die. The AR would still simply be a last ditch survival attempt, as he is caught out of his element.

Now consider this, lets say you are a specialist assault. Say you go up that mountain to shoot at that scout suit. You are using your shiny new Allotek, a weapon that isn't allowed as a sidearm. You shoot at the scout suit, he tries to shoot back with his duvolle, but since he has no scope, behold, you are just out of a comfortable aiming range for him. He shoots, he misses. You shoot, you score. You do believe that an AR with a scope provides a distinct aiming and accuracy advantage do you not?

A secondary weapon is a weapon that works as well as a primary but is held at a different level of usefulness, which you apparently don't understand. Those are weapons that have a defined role and therefore are viable primary weapons while the Ar does not and you have yet to disprove. In this case it seema like you have too much of an ego to let your primary weapon be put in a secondary slot. Again, specialized weapons go in primary slots, also a 1/10 for that fail filled troll

This is, honestly, a brilliant idea. Some of the racial variants could be modeled after carbines (shortened full ARs that fire the same ammunition as full ARs). These carbines could be fitted in the sidearm slot. They would be less effective in CQC than Subs and shottys, but still have have decent versatility. The carbine would essentially be a slightly less effective full Assault rifle (slightly less range and damage but still has the same old renowned versatility as it's AR older brother).

Full assault rifles should still need to be fitted to a LIGHT slot, but there should also be the option for the alternative described above. It's perfect considering more racial weapons are coming.

This is also a good way to balance the battlefield as well. People will be able to better defend themselves against infantry when they equip swarm launchers to fend off the tank spam in an ambush match. Don't get me wrong, they won't be as effective at killing infantry than a guy with a real assault rifle, but at least swarm launcher noobs won't be a (completely) free kill anymore.

Another good point about this idea is that this mechanic will be familiar to those who play Battlefield 3 and Halo. In battlefield, the engineer class typically has RPGs and javelins while equiping whatever they want as a primary. And in Halo, you have even more freedom.

Dust 514 is supposed to be a sandbox game, this idea fits perfectly with that concept, allowing players to create unique fits and are functional and fun to play.

I seriously hope a DEV sees this.

Well, if we go that route, I would rather that carbine still be allowed the same range and damage as a full AR, just give it a smaller clip. 30-40 rounds.

+1

Yes, a sniper needs distance ONLY if he needs to snipe, which should be all the time, because he is a sniper, that is the role he has chosen. The CQC doesn't need to hide, he only needs to stay in close quarters, which funny enough is what the "CQ" part of "CQC" means. The CQC player should be inside of a building, or in an area that offers lots of cover to use in closing distance. If you are on a very open map, then select a different class as CQC is not needed.

The advantage comes from the sniper being able to snipe from a distance, and if you get close he can pull out a very powerful AR that can take most suits down very quickly. This takes away the advantage the assault player should have and the weakness that the scout is supposed to have. The difference is in what weapon he can switch to the power of the weapons, obviously. Are you suggesting that an SMG has the same stopping power as the AR? And if you are, why push for ARs to be secondary weapons? There is a HUGE difference between a Duvolle and an SMG, I know you know that. A last ditch effort weapon shouldn't be just as powerful, if not more powerful, than any other weapon on the battlefield.

No I don't believe that, it just looks different when you aim, that's all. Whether its a white dot on iron sights, or the center of crosshairs, all you need to do is have it centered on your target.

I completely agree with the idea Protocake JR brought up and stated something similar previously in this thread. That is a great idea and I wouldn't be surprised to see it implemented in the game soon. I would love to have a carbine on my AV class. Less range, less damage, just as the sidearm is supposed to be. +1

The popular viewpoint seems to be that the assault rifle, as a utility weapon, should be able to beat every niche weapon hands down, whether or NOT it's beating that niche weapon in the niche weapon's element.

Niche roles find themselves in often frustrating circumstances once they are in mid-range situations, which is almost all the time.

Essentially, the assault rifle role has an easier time adapting offensively, than the niche roles, and I believe this is a problem. If the AR becomes a sidearm, then everyone will always be able adapt offensively and beat everyone.
No more excuses. No more "your weapon is OP" this, "you coward" that. Everything will boil down to that particular player's style and skill, not what he is forced to find himself in.

Assaults can close range on snipers, and can increase range on CQCers, way too easily, depending on the skill and circumstances of the niche players.

And what tends to happen after that range adjustment? The niche player has next to no means of an *even* fight anymore.

We make the assault rifle a sidearm, as has been explored with the 'Black Eagle', and the niche players will at least have a better opportunity for an equal exchange when they are caught out of their element.

The same can be said for assault players, they can have a niche weapon on their main slot, and be somewhat prepared in case they are caught out of their element by a niche player.
They see heavies, and can swap to their shot guns, then back to their ARs. While others who are dedicated counter-snipers, can attempt to make the counter snipe, then switch back to their AR.

There is little opportunity for equal firing exchange currently, and I think that's what frustrating a lot of people... Hence why they start calling for weapon nerfs, or changes to the redline to prevent perceived "abuse".

People want an equal opportunity on the battlefield.
Making Assault Rifles a sidearm, allows the weapon to serve everyone equally, as it was meant to.

EDIT: Potentially OP builds can be avoided if AR cpu costs are kept as is.

Still disagree Jathniel.

All this suggestion does is make a sniper long + mid range and a Shotty/HMG guy mid + close range. It won't encourage people to branch out and use the specialization they "want to use" but can't because ARs are too powerful. It'll just add to the kill counts of CQC guys and Snipers. It takes fractions of seconds to switch weapons. Arguing that a HMG guy will be more helpless if he has to roll out his HMG after using his AR makes me laugh. I never seem to have trouble rolling out my scrambler when I use my Assault suit.

You can't use a SINGLE suit that almost nobody CHOOSES to use as the rubric for why this idea would absolutely work, no questions asked. You aren't asking for a Scout variation that can use an AR and another primary, either. You're asking for Assault and Heavy suits to be able to do it. You don't see how that is different and has massive potential to gum up every gear in the machinery of this game?

If you nerf full auto ARs and buff breach, burst and tactical ARs...then MAYBE. If you nuke the range on ARs (because they are blasters...or whatever excuse you want) you absolutely MUST shorten the range on HMGs, too. If HMGs can out range an AR...they obsolete them. In fact, ditto with SMGs too. Faster RoF and bigger clip but equal range and close damage? Obsolete AR. An Eq slot doesn't make up for doing candyass damage, either...

Still, lets just make every weapon able to to be put in a sidearm slot. Better yet, so people can specialize in two specialties, lets just add another weapons slot. That way everyone can use their specialty, an AR and a sidearm. Or two specialties (until someone complains that those two-specialty guys can't use an AR, too). Gimme a break. This whole idea smacks of "I wanna blow **** up with my Forge Gun but use an AR too."

I'm sticking with my original suggestion. Slowly tick down the range and damage of full auto ARs until they are more balanced.

In an attempt to "balance" ARs you forget a goddamn huge point, too. Not every suit has a sidearm slot. If you make every class but Logistics able to use what would amount to two "primary" strength weapons, you basically make every class except Logistics that much more powerful. Hey, maybe they could take off that pesky triage timer...then I can get 2500 WP with my Logi again...

Still disagree Jathniel.

All this suggestion does is make a sniper long + mid range and a Shotty/HMG guy mid + close range. It won't encourage people to branch out and use the specialization they "want to use" but can't because ARs are too powerful. It'll just add to the kill counts of CQC guys and Snipers. It takes fractions of seconds to switch weapons. Arguing that a HMG guy will be more helpless if he has to roll out his HMG after using his AR makes me laugh. I never seem to have trouble rolling out my scrambler when I use my Assault suit.

You can't use a SINGLE suit that almost nobody CHOOSES to use as the rubric for why this idea would absolutely work, no questions asked. You aren't asking for a Scout variation that can use an AR and another primary, either. You're asking for Assault and Heavy suits to be able to do it. You don't see how that is different and has massive potential to gum up every gear in the machinery of this game?

If you nerf full auto ARs and buff breach, burst and tactical ARs...then MAYBE. If you nuke the range on ARs (because they are blasters...or whatever excuse you want) you absolutely MUST shorten the range on HMGs, too. If HMGs can out range an AR...they obsolete them. In fact, ditto with SMGs too. Faster RoF and bigger clip but equal range and close damage? Obsolete AR. An Eq slot doesn't make up for doing candyass damage, either...

Still, lets just make every weapon able to to be put in a sidearm slot. Better yet, so people can specialize in two specialties, lets just add another weapons slot. That way everyone can use their specialty, an AR and a sidearm. Or two specialties (until someone complains that those two-specialty guys can't use an AR, too). Gimme a break. This whole idea smacks of "I wanna blow **** up with my Forge Gun but use an AR too."

I'm sticking with my original suggestion. Slowly tick down the range and damage of full auto ARs until they are more balanced.

In an attempt to "balance" ARs you forget a goddamn huge point, too. Not every suit has a sidearm slot. If you make every class but Logistics able to use what would amount to two "primary" strength weapons, you basically make every class except Logistics that much more powerful. Hey, maybe they could take off that pesky triage timer...then I can get 2500 WP with my Logi again...

We cold even take it further and just keep adding weapon slots. That way everyone would be able to carry every weapon for every situation and no one would have to ever be out of their element!

I was starting to consider this idea to be viable for a while, but you brought up some very obvious points that I hadn't considered. I think some tweaks or additions to the selection of sidearms could satisfy the requests of the players who support this.

The popular viewpoint seems to be that the assault rifle, as a utility weapon, should be able to beat every niche weapon hands down, whether or NOT it's beating that niche weapon in the niche weapon's element.

Niche roles find themselves in often frustrating circumstances once they are in mid-range situations, which is almost all the time.

Essentially, the assault rifle role has an easier time adapting offensively, than the niche roles, and I believe this is a problem. If the AR becomes a sidearm, then everyone will always be able adapt offensively and beat everyone.
No more excuses. No more "your weapon is OP" this, "you coward" that. Everything will boil down to that particular player's style and skill, not what he is forced to find himself in.

Assaults can close range on snipers, and can increase range on CQCers, way too easily, depending on the skill and circumstances of the niche players.

And what tends to happen after that range adjustment? The niche player has next to no means of an *even* fight anymore.

We make the assault rifle a sidearm, as has been explored with the 'Black Eagle', and the niche players will at least have a better opportunity for an equal exchange when they are caught out of their element.

The same can be said for assault players, they can have a niche weapon on their main slot, and be somewhat prepared in case they are caught out of their element by a niche player.
They see heavies, and can swap to their shot guns, then back to their ARs. While others who are dedicated counter-snipers, can attempt to make the counter snipe, then switch back to their AR.

There is little opportunity for equal firing exchange currently, and I think that's what's frustrating a lot of people... Hence why they start calling for weapon nerfs, or changes to the redline to prevent perceived "abuse".

People want an equal opportunity on the battlefield.
Making Assault Rifles a sidearm, allows the weapon to serve everyone equally, as it was meant to.

EDIT: Potentially OP builds can be avoided if AR cpu costs are kept as is.


SECOND EDIT: After some discussion, and input. It would appear there is a growing consensus for this. In particular, side-arm carbine variants of current ARs.
ARs that function like the current ones, that suffer a clip cost, of about 50% capacity.

Full-auto assault rifles only? Then bump up the damage a pinch for the Burst and Tac? (pinch being 5-7 damage)

People don't like using the burst as much, because it doesn't apply the same attack pressure as easily, even though it has their precious scope and a higher RoF. (this is what makes it a balanced weapon requiring skill, just like the Tac AR used to be). It has range, and suffers closer in, as it should.

Bursts have MORE range, and you will decimate everyone, even heavies if you're truly accurate.

The full auto ARs are the ones getting spammed. Rare to see truly sharp and excellent players using Bursts like Gorewrecks or Alloteks...

Let everyone use the full-auto ARs, that way everyone will be able to fight if they find themselves in that circumstance warranting it, and leave the Bursts and Tacs as primaries for assaults that want to stand out as assault specialists (those are the ones that will keep their scopes.)