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Shooting Down Swarms

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Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 308	Posted - 2013.03.12 23:47:00 - [1] - Quote I introduced this idea months ago (back in September actually) while I was still on my very first Dust toon, but I think it's time to bring it back up. Vehicle drivers don't like swarms becaus there's a free one, they track, they require no skill, they do too much damage, on and on and on. I don't agree with them, I really don't. But that's because I see swarms from the infantry side of the equation. So, why don't we give swarms a hit box, give them about 70 HP, and let people shoot them out of the air for like 15~25 SP? It would give teammates a means of helping out tankers, it would prevent the need for swarm nerfs (since tankers and their gunners could shoot them down too), and might even allow for a swarm buff depending on how well shooting them down works. Just an old idea that I felt might be fun to reintroduce.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 309	Posted - 2013.03.12 23:49:00 - [2] - Quote Wouldn't blaster tanks be able to 1 shot them then? They'd be invincible!
Mr Pwnykins East Los Angeles 2	Posted - 2013.03.12 23:49:00 - [3] - Quote Sweet, I always wanted to shoot a fly with my HMG... Or my pistol Or my sniper rifle KITTEN do et
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 309	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:14:00 - [4] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Wouldn't blaster tanks be able to 1 shot them then? They'd be invincible! IF they see them coming. There would need to be good communication among squad mates to drop these flies. Also, shooting down swarms means you aren't shooting infantry. It would give everyone one more way to earn a couple more WP. Also, you can still get dropped by forge guns and AV grenades while you are swatting those distracting little flies.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 54	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:35:00 - [5] - Quote It would be hard to drop a whole swarm before they hit, but it would be a good way for your gunners to support your retreat when you need to fall back. They'd probably be able to get 2 or 3 of them before they landed, 4 if they are really good gunners. This would increase the need for people having to plan when and where they fire off a volley. It would help dropships and specced op LAV's too.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 628	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:40:00 - [6] - Quote trollface dot jpg wrote: It would be hard to drop a whole swarm before they hit, but it would be a good way for your gunners to support your retreat when you need to fall back. They'd probably be able to get 2 or 3 of them before they landed, 4 if they are really good gunners. This would increase the need for people having to plan when and where they fire off a volley. It would help dropships and specced up LAV's too.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 423	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:44:00 - [7] - Quote So... do swarms also get free fire back?
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 54	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:50:00 - [8] - Quote gbghg wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: It would be hard to drop a whole swarm before they hit, but it would be a good way for your gunners to support your retreat when you need to fall back. They'd probably be able to get 2 or 3 of them before they landed, 4 if they are really good gunners. This would increase the need for people having to plan when and where they fire off a volley. It would help dropships and specced up LAV's too. lolz, you know what's goin on here. It is a great idea though, and as I said good gunners could assist the dropships as well by shooting them down. Also, I'm sure the pilot would get some sort of assist points for it.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 309	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:50:00 - [9] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: So... do swarms also get free fire back? No... probably not. But I'm sure we could come up with SOME kind of gentle buff to make it worthwhile for swarm users.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 424	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:51:00 - [10] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: So... do swarms also get free fire back? No... probably not. But I'm sure we could come up with SOME kind of gentle buff to make it worthwhile for swarm users. I just want a rocket launcher

Sentient Archon Red Star. 778	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:52:00 - [11] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I introduced this idea months ago (back in September actually) while I was still on my very first Dust toon, but I think it's time to bring it back up. Vehicle drivers don't like swarms becaus there's a free one, they track, they require no skill, they do too much damage, on and on and on. I don't agree with them, I really don't. But that's because I see swarms from the infantry side of the equation. So, why don't we give swarms a hit box, give them about 70 HP, and let people shoot them out of the air for like 15~25 SP? It would give teammates a means of helping out tankers, it would prevent the need for swarm nerfs (since tankers and their gunners could shoot them down too), and might even allow for a swarm buff depending on how well shooting them down works. Just an old idea that I felt might be fun to reintroduce. LOL. Shooting down swarms is an age old technique. Most short missile turret users have mastered this. However its a waste of a person and works only with the lower turret.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 628	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:53:00 - [12] - Quote trollface dot jpg wrote: gbghg wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: It would be hard to drop a whole swarm before they hit, but it would be a good way for your gunners to support your retreat when you need to fall back. They'd probably be able to get 2 or 3 of them before they landed, 4 if they are really good gunners. This would increase the need for people having to plan when and where they fire off a volley. It would help dropships and specced up LAV's too. lolz, you know what's goin on here. It is a great idea though, and as I said good gunners could assist the dropships as well by shooting them down. Also, I'm sure the pilot would get some sort of assist points for it. While it would be yseful for dropshipp's and LAV's it might be a little op for blaster tanks, in fact stick two blaster tanks near each other and they would be effectively invunerable
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 54	Posted - 2013.03.13 00:56:00 - [13] - Quote gbghg wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: gbghg wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: It would be hard to drop a whole swarm before they hit, but it would be a good way for your gunners to support your retreat when you need to fall back. They'd probably be able to get 2 or 3 of them before they landed, 4 if they are really good gunners. This would increase the need for people having to plan when and where they fire off a volley. It would help dropships and specced up LAV's too. lolz, you know what's goin on here. It is a great idea though, and as I said good gunners could assist the dropships as well by shooting them down. Also, I'm sure the pilot would get some sort of assist points for it. While it would be yseful for dropshipp's and LAV's it might be a little op for blaster tanks, in fact stick two blaster tanks near each other and they would be effectively invunerable Invulnerable to SWARMS, but that also means they are too distracted to shoot at infantry or keep an eye out for forge gunners or AV grenade spammers.
Banjo Robertson The Tritan Industries 1	Posted - 2013.03.13 01:16:00 - [14] - Quote Its a good idea, but then again I'm a Tanker so I want to not get blown up
Concept Proof HavoK Core 7	Posted - 2013.03.13 02:13:00 - [15] - Quote flack turrets please?
Kas Croixe Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 17	Posted - 2013.03.13 02:22:00 - [16] - Quote As a duelist(pistol user) I like this idea. Gives me a good opportunity to practice marksmanship on moving targets while under pressure.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative 15	Posted - 2013.03.13 02:32:00 - [17] - Quote i like the idea but i see this as a programming nightmare and with lag issues so yea good idea, do i think it'll ever happen no.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2001	Posted - 2013.03.13 07:07:00 - [18] - Quote I wasn't concerned about this until you said that you'd get SP for killing them. Small Blaster Turrets would become a broken overpowered missile defense system that also earns WP and SP for the shooter. A tank without Blasters could stick with a couple of HMG Heavies and be totally immune to Swam Launchers. manned Blaster Installations would only be vulnerable to Forge Guns and tanks. That would almost completely negate the value of Swarm Launchers for anything except helping the enemy team farm for an Orbital.
Quill Killian Better Hide R Die 120	Posted - 2013.03.13 07:47:00 - [19] - Quote Sounds like a great idea! In exchange, the swarm launcher can be tweaked to triple its current swarm density.

CCP Eterne C C P C C P Alliance 1002	Posted - 2013.03.13 09:33:00 - [20] - Quote This is definitely an interesting idea. Moving to Feedback/Requests.


Django Quik R.I.f.t 244	Posted - 2013.03.13 09:58:00 - [21] - Quote I actually think this is a great idea, even though I'm a dedicated swarmer myself. It would have to be well balanced to stop swarms becoming useless but I think it would be pretty difficult to shoot them down anyway. Make the hit boxes really small and adjust the individual missile HP appropriately. Infantry would really struggle to get even one missile down because range and damage would not be enough to counter the speed and movement of swarms. Only blaster turrets would really do the job but would need decent accuracy and gunners with good reactions and as already mentioned, you'd be sacrificing infantry defense Maybe CCP could add some sort of flak turrets that would be really effective against swarms but useless against anything ground based (perhaps have their field of view limited so they can't aim at the ground?).
Brush Master HavoK Core 240	Posted - 2013.03.13 13:00:00 - [22] - Quote Being a tanker and a swarmer, I like that idea but I don't think players should get a lot of points for shooting them down, maybe +5 a swarm. I would also make the missile from higher end swarm launchers have a lot more hp so you really only have a chance at shooting down 1 or 2 of them before they hit. I know several times where the entire volley passed through my stream of blaster and thought, gee those swarms should be destroyed by that. So +1 for the idea. In respect to hp, you could also add hp level bonus tied to the swarm launcher skill. This would result in militia swarms being able to be shot down easily while those that actually skill into it would be harder to kill.
Fox Gaden DUST University Ivy League 213	Posted - 2013.03.13 15:06:00 - [23] - Quote You would have to be a dam good shot to hit a swarm missel. I am not sure that this would make any difference. Besides, good tanks shrug off swarms and hardly notice. Maybe Light Aircraft should be able to equip a flack module that allows the pilot to fire flack and flares when they see swarms inbound in hopes that some of the swarms will loose lock and go after the flack instead.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2013.03.13 17:46:00 - [24] - Quote @Garret: As for farming points for an OB, the SP income needs to be high enough to make it worth your time to shoot them down while low enough to not have a huge impact. I said 15~20WP just as a random WP number, it could really be anything from 5 and up, but I doubt people will think it's worthwhile to shoot them down for less than 10WP. Also, if you are good enough to shoot them down, then you deserve a bump towards your next OB. I also said that by doing this you would allow for a possible buff to swarms, thus making them more worthwhile when they DO hit. You could buff the speed a bit to make them harder to hit, or you could buff the damage they do when they connect, OR you could double the missile count and half the damage each missile does, thus providing more targets but also more chances to hit. A tank with a heavy guarding it from swarms is taking a heavy out of the battle. That still means the swarms are helping, if only by distraction. That means that the battle is not only short the tanker and his 2 gunners, but also a heavy. That's 4 people who cannot cap objectives, and you were saying he could have 2 heavies, so that's 5. If they want to keep the tank safe that badly, then they can, but they will be putting the team at risk. The tank will also have to travel slowly so the heavies can keep up if it plans to travel any serious distance. Lastly, since the HMG spreads bullets so badly and has a limited range, you would have to wait until they get close and try to take them all out at once. Not an easy task when a whole squad is working on your tank. With the speed with which the swarms currently fly, getting 2 or 3 small blaster rounds into a single missile would be very difficult. They are very small, and small turrets have a rather short range. This short range means those turrets would have to wait for the missiles to get close before trying to take them out. The longest ranged small blaster turret is the stabilized turret (has a little less range than a basic AR with lvl 1~2 sharpshooter iirc), and it requires much more PG to equip and does less damage than other turret variants, so by equipping them for AA purposes they have to sacrifice fittings. Also, it means that tankers who run solo will be at a severe disadvantage, thereby promoting tank teamwork (not enough of that right now).
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 152	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:03:00 - [25] - Quote I would say "no" to it being do-able with regular weapons, but yes to an infantry deployable equipment item that can do it. This would promote more cooperation between infantry and vehicles, which would be a nice change of pace from the extremely adversarial view people have toward vehicles now.
Skihids The Tritan Industries 1028	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:03:00 - [26] - Quote As a DS pilot I approve any idea to counter those kitten missiles. Blasters should have a decent chance to take out some of them based on its high rate of fire. To be sure of getting them all you could introduce a Flak Cannon. It would take the place of a small turret and have a short and possibly user adjustable range. At that range the shells would burst into a cloud of flak which would destroy missiles that fly into it. Obviously this FC would be fairly ineffective against infantry unless the enemy stood in perfect range for the explosions to be in splash range. That active defense would require an additional crew member and reduce offensive capacity at the same time which should more than balance it out. A tanker would probably place it on the top and a DS pilot might use two or decide to spin his ship as required to expose them to fire. More options, more fun!
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 39	Posted - 2013.03.13 18:18:00 - [27] - Quote Why don't we give vehicles equipment slots with different counters for every kind of weapon: Kinetic defense systems for forge guns Exterior armor skirts for AV nades Electronic disruptors for swarms. This way not EVERYTHING can be defeated
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 454	Posted - 2013.03.13 19:00:00 - [28] - Quote I'd perfer a module that shoots down a certain number of swarms per level, since completely removing a form of Av's viability is a terrible idea. I'm thinking have the module shoot 2 missiles down at standard and 1 more at every other tier.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2013.03.13 20:08:00 - [29] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: I'd perfer a module that shoots down a certain number of swarms per level, since completely removing a form of Av's viability is a terrible idea. I'm thinking have the module shoot 2 missiles down at standard and 1 more at every other tier. But with a max mod you are thereby making a proto swarm automatically worse than a militia would be without that mod. If you simply allow swarms to be shot down, then flanking to a vehicles blind side or getting close enough to prevent all of the swarms from being shot down will still give you full damage with your swarm. It doesn't negate the swarm launcher, it makes you have to use it more intelligently.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 458	Posted - 2013.03.13 20:47:00 - [30] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: I'd perfer a module that shoots down a certain number of swarms per level, since completely removing a form of Av's viability is a terrible idea. I'm thinking have the module shoot 2 missiles down at standard and 1 more at every other tier. But with a max mod you are thereby making a proto swarm automatically worse than a militia would be without that mod. If you simply allow swarms to be shot down, then flanking to a vehicles blind side or getting close enough to prevent all of the swarms from being shot down will still give you full damage with your swarm. It doesn't negate the swarm launcher, it makes you have to use it more intelligently. It does negate the swarm launcher, do you have any idea how slow they are? Imagine having your turret have it's own hp bar which is much lower than the rest of your Hav and getting it destroyed



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