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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
308
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Posted - 2013.03.12 23:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I introduced this idea months ago (back in September actually) while I was still on my very first Dust toon, but I think it's time to bring it back up. Vehicle drivers don't like swarms becaus there's a free one, they track, they require no skill, they do too much damage, on and on and on. I don't agree with them, I really don't. But that's because I see swarms from the infantry side of the equation. So, why don't we give swarms a hit box, give them about 70 HP, and let people shoot them out of the air for like 15~25 SP? It would give teammates a means of helping out tankers, it would prevent the need for swarm nerfs (since tankers and their gunners could shoot them down too), and might even allow for a swarm buff depending on how well shooting them down works.
Just an old idea that I felt might be fun to reintroduce. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
309
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Posted - 2013.03.13 00:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
DJINN Marauder wrote:Wouldn't blaster tanks be able to 1 shot them then? They'd be invincible! 
IF they see them coming. There would need to be good communication among squad mates to drop these flies. Also, shooting down swarms means you aren't shooting infantry.  It would give everyone one more way to earn a couple more WP.
Also, you can still get dropped by forge guns and AV grenades while you are swatting those distracting little flies.  |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
309
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Posted - 2013.03.13 00:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:So... do swarms also get free fire back? 
No... probably not. But I'm sure we could come up with SOME kind of gentle buff to make it worthwhile for swarm users. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
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Posted - 2013.03.13 17:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
@Garret: As for farming points for an OB, the SP income needs to be high enough to make it worth your time to shoot them down while low enough to not have a huge impact. I said 15~20WP just as a random WP number, it could really be anything from 5 and up, but I doubt people will think it's worthwhile to shoot them down for less than 10WP. Also, if you are good enough to shoot them down, then you deserve a bump towards your next OB.
I also said that by doing this you would allow for a possible buff to swarms, thus making them more worthwhile when they DO hit. You could buff the speed a bit to make them harder to hit, or you could buff the damage they do when they connect, OR you could double the missile count and half the damage each missile does, thus providing more targets but also more chances to hit.
A tank with a heavy guarding it from swarms is taking a heavy out of the battle. That still means the swarms are helping, if only by distraction. That means that the battle is not only short the tanker and his 2 gunners, but also a heavy. That's 4 people who cannot cap objectives, and you were saying he could have 2 heavies, so that's 5. If they want to keep the tank safe that badly, then they can, but they will be putting the team at risk. The tank will also have to travel slowly so the heavies can keep up if it plans to travel any serious distance. Lastly, since the HMG spreads bullets so badly and has a limited range, you would have to wait until they get close and try to take them all out at once. Not an easy task when a whole squad is working on your tank.
With the speed with which the swarms currently fly, getting 2 or 3 small blaster rounds into a single missile would be very difficult. They are very small, and small turrets have a rather short range. This short range means those turrets would have to wait for the missiles to get close before trying to take them out. The longest ranged small blaster turret is the stabilized turret (has a little less range than a basic AR with lvl 1~2 sharpshooter iirc), and it requires much more PG to equip and does less damage than other turret variants, so by equipping them for AA purposes they have to sacrifice fittings. Also, it means that tankers who run solo will be at a severe disadvantage, thereby promoting tank teamwork (not enough of that right now). |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
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Posted - 2013.03.13 20:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:I'd perfer a module that shoots down a certain number of swarms per level, since completely removing a form of Av's viability is a terrible idea. I'm thinking have the module shoot 2 missiles down at standard and 1 more at every other tier.
But with a max mod you are thereby making a proto swarm automatically worse than a militia would be without that mod. If you simply allow swarms to be shot down, then flanking to a vehicles blind side or getting close enough to prevent all of the swarms from being shot down will still give you full damage with your swarm. It doesn't negate the swarm launcher, it makes you have to use it more intelligently. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
315
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Posted - 2013.03.13 20:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:I'd perfer a module that shoots down a certain number of swarms per level, since completely removing a form of Av's viability is a terrible idea. I'm thinking have the module shoot 2 missiles down at standard and 1 more at every other tier. But with a max mod you are thereby making a proto swarm automatically worse than a militia would be without that mod. If you simply allow swarms to be shot down, then flanking to a vehicles blind side or getting close enough to prevent all of the swarms from being shot down will still give you full damage with your swarm. It doesn't negate the swarm launcher, it makes you have to use it more intelligently. It does negate the swarm launcher, do you have any idea how slow they are? Imagine having your turret have it's own hp bar which is much lower than the rest of your Hav and getting it destroyed
And in my post I made allowances for buffs to the swarms due to this inconvenience. A speed increase is not an illogical buff for swarms if they can be shot down. Also, my HP figure for each swarm missile is just a random number I plucked out of thin air, it could be adjusted until it worked properly.
You are taking the idea as a concrete unchangeable proposal, when in fact it's a malleable idea that could be tweaked and toyed with to improve the depth of AV and vehicle play. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
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Posted - 2013.03.13 21:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Really good idea cos it's gonna be hard to hit the misslies anyway without spraying as many bullets as possible so wouldn't be unfair to swarm launcher users since if people are shooting your missles then you can use them as diversions perhaps? every bullet shot at missles would be one less bullet shooting at your team. So I agree with your idea! tis a good one!
Thank you, not many people see the diversionary angle of the idea. They are to focused on trying to find holes in it to see how much benefit it could bring.
Sure, people could try to farm missiles for SP, but while they are shooting into the air, the enemy team is shooting at them. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
315
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Posted - 2013.03.13 21:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote:In your scenario my damage can be completely negated without you having to make any sort of sacrifice because your whole team can do so.
Indeed (I take it I'm the tanker in this example). However, in order to negate your damage I would have to stop everything and focus on stopping your attacks. My gunners would be focused on it as well. I wouldn't be able to try to come after you, I wouldn't be able to kill infantry, I wouldn't be able to look around for an escape route, I wouldn't be able to keep an eye out for people sneaking up on me with AV grenades or kill installations or watch for forge gunners or other tanks or railgun installations or other swarmers, I'd be focused entirely on stopping your volley.
Or I could take the hit and continue what I was doing and try to make a quick getaway. It's risk vs reward. By focusing on taking out your swarms, I'm leaving myself open to MANY more things. If I'm about to loose my tank and I'm running away, my gunners can support me by taking out one or two of those swarms before they hit, but since blasters can only hit them once the swarms get in range (small blasters have a very limited range) they will almost never get all 4~6 of them. Also, 3/4 of the time the front gunner will not be able to see the swarms coming since he sits so low and is unable to get a proper side view, so the only real threats are the top and main turrets.
It makes the swarm more of a support weapon, but it does not negate it. Especially if you buff them to compensate. Also, if you read up through the thread a bit, it's mentioned that you could double the missile count and half the damage of each missile, thus making it harder to hit them all.
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