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Saj T
IT'S NO USE
23
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Posted - 2013.03.09 11:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
An assault suit effectively can tank way better than a heavy suit. This is due to the combination of the power of complex shield mods, superior amount of slots and the significantly smaller hitbox and mobility.
Now add to the fact that heavy suits are considerably more expensive, to the point that with a properly kitted type-II suit (complex mods, blueprint sidearm, no proto gun) you can't afford to die more than 3 or so times per game. Now, considering that the heavy suit primarily works close up it's quite easy to die that often and it really doesn't matter how many kills you get because they won't offset the fact that you're making a net loss each game.
Then for some reasons proto heavy suits are astronomically expensive where as the proto assault ones are not. On top of that they assault proto suits actually provide a useful boost where once again, the proto heavy suits do not.
So yeah, proto equivalents sucks, heavy suits are more expensive in general (in the case of proto, a LOT more), tank less and have less mobility.
The only advantage the heavy suit has is the ability to field the HMG and Forge Gun. Unless you're that oddball forge sniper who enjoys clicking pixels all day the Forge Gun is a situational weapon that's typically used for AV-work whenever a vehicle is deployed on the field, you don't need to be a specialized heavy to use it for this purpose.
As for the HMG, really, I believe the AR to be a superior weapon and even if you do think the HMG is better, I don't see how you could find it redeeming the suckage that is the Heavy suit.
Long story short, why play the heavy except for the cool factor and how it tears up bad and/or low SP players? |
Mercian Enforcer
Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.03.09 11:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Saj T wrote:An assault suit effectively can tank way better than a heavy suit. This is due to the combination of the power of complex shield mods, superior amount of slots and the significantly smaller hitbox and mobility.
Now add to the fact that heavy suits are considerably more expensive, to the point that with a properly kitted type-II suit (complex mods, blueprint sidearm, no proto gun) you can't afford to die more than 3 or so times per game. Now, considering that the heavy suit primarily works close up it's quite easy to die that often and it really doesn't matter how many kills you get because they won't offset the fact that you're making a net loss each game.
Then for some reasons proto heavy suits are astronomically expensive where as the proto assault ones are not. On top of that they assault proto suits actually provide a useful boost where once again, the proto heavy suits do not.
So yeah, proto equivalents sucks, heavy suits are more expensive in general (in the case of proto, a LOT more), tank less and have less mobility.
The only advantage the heavy suit has is the ability to field the HMG and Forge Gun. Unless you're that oddball forge sniper who enjoys clicking pixels all day the Forge Gun is a situational weapon that's typically used for AV-work whenever a vehicle is deployed on the field, you don't need to be a specialized heavy to use it for this purpose.
As for the HMG, really, I believe the AR to be a superior weapon and even if you do think the HMG is better, I don't see how you could find it redeeming the suckage that is the Heavy suit.
Long story short, why play the heavy except for the cool factor and how it tears up bad and/or low SP players?
Don't forget the absolute shame of using the heavy(coward) suit.........[jk]
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
920
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 11:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Go assault...be a man :D |
lowratehitman
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
335
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 11:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
I will admit that the Assault B shield tank class allows me to stand toe to toe with alot of heavies,and that is a down fall due to there being some really skilled heavies. |
Argo Filch
BetaMax.
4
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Posted - 2013.03.09 11:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
the funny thing is... you guy seem to have the impression that this game is a 1v1 kinda deal... might be that a proto assault dude is better than a proto heavy dude... but a proper ehp tanked heavy with good weapon skills and 2 capable logibros as support will absolutely murder everyone in cqc... and if them two logibros have proto reppers with two streams to support two heavies...
this is and should be first and foremost a team/squad focused game. |
Saj T
IT'S NO USE
23
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Posted - 2013.03.09 12:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Argo Filch wrote:the funny thing is... you guys seem to have the impression that this game is a 1v1 kinda deal... might be that a proto assault dude is better than a proto heavy dude... but a proper ehp tanked heavy with good weapon skills and 2 capable logibros as support will absolutely murder everyone in cqc... and if them two logibros have proto reppers with two streams to support two heavies...
this is and should be first and foremost a team/squad focused game.
Edith: too stupid to spell Okay, yes logibros are very nice and yes this is a team game. However, what's preventing you from running an assault suit instead with the same two logibros?
In fact, the assault rifle will likely better complement the role of the logistics players since weapons like the HMG shine up-close where the DPS is often too high for the logistics players to cope with and it also puts them at larger risk since they do not enjoy the same tank that their target has.
In addition to this, the assault suit gets a utility slot that heavy suits don't have, a slot which is especially useful for his fellow team members.
Lastly, an assault suit won't limit the movement of the team like a heavy suit will.
If you ask me, if anything the logi class existing is a point which supports the notion that the assault suit is superior to the heavy, not the opposite. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1910
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Show me the Assault suit that can hold a Forge Gun. How about HMG Assaults?
Tanking AND damage dealing. And Heavies can absorb more direct damage than Assaults in most cases. Even most well-fitted Assaults can be rapidly double-tapped by weapons that take upwards of 4 hits to kill a Heavy without any Logistics guys helping. With them, the Assault gets double-tapped, but the Heavy can potentially wade through a small army's worth of incoming fire when being repaired by a couple of Logibros. |
Fargen Icehole
SyNergy Gaming
73
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
I enjoy these posts. Hopefully it helps people realise what many of us heavies have been saying forever:
The heavy class is DEFINITELY the strongest class for having 2mil SP or less, it is easily surpassed by assault for those with 4mil+ SP. Type2 heavy w/std hmg > all other classes and weapons at similar levels. Proto heavy w/proto hmg < proto scout and proto logi with proto weapons < proto assault with proto weapon. |
Stinker Butt
UnReaL.
117
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 13:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm not sure if the original question is real or just trying to make a point, but I'll assume it's real and try to answer it. As for the point that you made, I completely agree.
To answer the question, I think you should choose the class that you enjoy playing the most. When open beta began, I already knew that the heavy would slowly become more handicapped, but I liked it more than the others, so I skilled into it. Part of it is the fear factor. There's nothing better than jumping out of my LAV to take on two reds in a gunfight and then watching one of them run away leaving a poor merc to die alone. I kill just as well with a shotgun assault and I have the option of carrying nanohive and/or repair tool to complete the build. It's just not as much fun.
If you list all of the benefits vs weaknesses and base your decision on that, then you should not choose the heavy. But you also do not know what changes CCP will make and you may regret that decision later. Play this game for fun and you will be happier overall.
I watched my guristas-saga get silently nerfed 3 times since I started using it. It's very disappointing to log in and see all of your builds have turned red and no mention of any changes on the forum. I keep adjusting and still have fun. |
Severance Pay
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
11
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Posted - 2013.03.09 14:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Argo Filch wrote:the funny thing is... you guys seem to have the impression that this game is a 1v1 kinda deal... might be that a proto assault dude is better than a proto heavy dude... but a proper ehp tanked heavy with good weapon skills and 2 capable logibros as support will absolutely murder everyone in cqc... and if them two logibros have proto reppers with two streams to support two heavies...
this is and should be first and foremost a team/squad focused game.
Edith: too stupid to spell
Don't forget that a heavy with max field ops and armor plates can have nearly 1k armor. In terms of repair and guardian points this is a lot of points. And in terms or orbital strikes, thats a lot of orbital strikes. This how you get orbitals fast, heavies spray lots of bullets and get lots of kills, logis repair and guard and get points from nanohives, repair and guardian. Before you know it the logi has 2500 points before you kill half their clones. Heavy secures orbital and now they are closer to victory. Why do I need assaukt again? Cuz heavies can use lasers and assault rifles too, so why assault? |
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Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
131
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Posted - 2013.03.09 14:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
So, I'm a bit of a dork. (We're all arguing over a videogame on the Internets, that shouldn't come as a surprise.) So I try to put numbers behind balance suggestions as best I can.
A Heavy-II kills an Assault-II in 0.78s. An Assault-II kills a Heavy-II in 1.94s. 149% difference in Heavy's favor.
A proto Heavy kills a proto shield Assault in 0.86s. A proto shield Assault kills a proto Heavy in 1.94s. 129% difference in Heavy's favor.
A Heavy-II (basic HMG) kills a proto shield Assault in 1.04s. A proto shield Assault kills a Heavy-II (basic HMG) in 1.76s. 69% difference in Heavy's favor. (!)
Really, I think the balance between the two is the same all the way up the technology scale. The problem is really the price.
(That, and the AR boys are getting better and better at headshots, while most Heavies are still aiming for center mass like morons.)
Fix the price and you'll fix the problem. Though I still think the proto Heavy suit needs another slot, most likely low slot for balance. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
444
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fargen Icehole wrote:I enjoy these posts. Hopefully it helps people realise what many of us heavies have been saying forever:
The heavy class is DEFINITELY the strongest class for having 2mil SP or less, it is easily surpassed by assault for those with 4mil+ SP. Type2 heavy w/std hmg > all other classes and weapons at similar levels. Proto heavy w/proto hmg < proto scout and proto logi with proto weapons < proto assault with proto weapon. This is the essence of it here, i think. I'd say my skillset is average - my type II heavy alt posts pretty good on the killboards, has a 50% higher kdr than my higher-skilled type II assault main, and runs at a profit.
But at a much lower profit: heavy has ~7 million isk, assault has ~ 40 million isk. If i step up one suit class, or even start running proto mods on the heavy, the profit margin will disappear. Incidentally, all the core and passive skills as well as fitting skills are just about maxxed at this point, so there's not much extra that i can squeeze out of that type II suit.
If this sounds like a complaint, it's not, it's just data. For a player with my skills, as an everyday suit, Type II is the end of the road for this heavy gunner. In contrast, i'm expecting the profit margin to get a little bit fatter when i step the assault up to type B.
A great player like maplecore could certainly afford to run a better suit and gear on a regular basis, but i doubt that even his skillset supports the everyday use of proto suits/gear.
And a last point: this is as it should be, i think. We were never supposed to be able to run elite gear on a regular basis, and seeing a proto suit of any class should give one cause for alarm. It should tell you immediately that whoever is in that suit is either lethal, desperate, or a fool. My opinion therefore is not that Heavy suits are too expensive, it's that Assault suits and Scout suit are too cheap. |
Saj T
IT'S NO USE
23
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:So, I'm a bit of a dork. (We're all arguing over a videogame on the Internets, that shouldn't come as a surprise.) So I try to put numbers behind balance suggestions as best I can.
A Heavy-II kills an Assault-II in 0.78s. An Assault-II kills a Heavy-II in 1.94s. 149% difference in Heavy's favor.
A proto Heavy kills a proto shield Assault in 0.86s. A proto shield Assault kills a proto Heavy in 1.94s. 129% difference in Heavy's favor.
A Heavy-II (basic HMG) kills a proto shield Assault in 1.04s. A proto shield Assault kills a Heavy-II (basic HMG) in 1.76s. 69% difference in Heavy's favor. (!)
Really, I think the balance between the two is the same all the way up the technology scale. The problem is really the price.
(That, and the AR boys are getting better and better at headshots, while most Heavies are still aiming for center mass like morons.)
Fix the price and you'll fix the problem. Though I still think the proto Heavy suit needs another slot, most likely low slot for balance. Some problems with your calculations here.
1) what the hell do these guys have equipped and what are their modules?
2) the larger hitbox of the heavy, larger spread of the HMG and slower turn ratio of the heavy are not taken into account.
3) Spread becomes an even bigger issue with the HMG when you're aiming at the head.
4) Did you take armor and shield into account when calculating effective HP versus the weapon type? |
Fargen Icehole
SyNergy Gaming
73
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Fargen Icehole wrote:I enjoy these posts. Hopefully it helps people realise what many of us heavies have been saying forever:
The heavy class is DEFINITELY the strongest class for having 2mil SP or less, it is easily surpassed by assault for those with 4mil+ SP. Type2 heavy w/std hmg > all other classes and weapons at similar levels. Proto heavy w/proto hmg < proto scout and proto logi with proto weapons < proto assault with proto weapon. This is the essence of it here, i think. I'd say my skillset is average - my type II heavy alt posts pretty good on the killboards, has a 50% higher kdr than my higher-skilled type II assault main, and runs at a profit. But at a much lower profit: heavy has ~7 million isk, assault has ~ 40 million isk. If i step up one suit class, or even start running proto mods on the heavy, the profit margin will disappear. Incidentally, all the core and passive skills as well as fitting skills are just about maxxed at this point, so there's not much extra that i can squeeze out of that type II suit. If this sounds like a complaint, it's not, it's just data. For a player with my skills, as an everyday suit, Type II is the end of the road for this heavy gunner. In contrast, i'm expecting the profit margin to get a little bit fatter when i step the assault up to type B. A great player like maplecore could certainly afford to run a better suit and gear on a regular basis, but i doubt that even his skillset supports the everyday use of proto suits/gear. And a last point: this is as it should be, i think. We were never supposed to be able to run elite gear on a regular basis, and seeing a proto suit of any class should give one cause for alarm. It should tell you immediately that whoever is in that suit is either lethal, desperate, or a fool. My opinion therefore is not that Heavy suits are too expensive, it's that Assault suits and Scout suit are too cheap.
Im with ya, by no means am i saying that proto heavies need a buff, but the price of their gear should come down a little. (or all other classes should go up in price a bit) |
Spkr4theDead
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 15:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Go assault...be a man :D LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Says the leader of the clan that lags worse than the Japanese, who still can't properly use vehicles. That one-dimensional thinking will make you lose every time. Enjoy paying for my merc's vacations across the stars. |
Spkr4theDead
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Show me the Assault suit that can hold a Forge Gun. How about HMG Assaults?
Tanking AND damage dealing. And Heavies can absorb more direct damage than Assaults in most cases. Even most well-fitted Assaults can be rapidly double-tapped by weapons that take upwards of 4 hits to kill a Heavy without any Logistics guys helping. With them, the Assault gets double-tapped, but the Heavy can potentially wade through a small army's worth of incoming fire when being repaired by a couple of Logibros. I've been 3-shotted by the Kaalakiota. Pissed me off that a sniper rifle can do that much damage to a heavy suit, but when I notice a sniper shooting at the LAV I'm driving, whether shield or armor, it tickles it at best. I feel this is something CCP needs to address. It's blatantly obvious that snipers pummel everybody, but it's like pissing in the wind shooting at vehicles. |
Nulldust
Codex Troopers
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Saj T wrote:Long story short, ... Heavies are for rich dudes with retainers, probably Minmatar, in tow. I've no problem with that. I'm a Caldari. I like rich dudes. How else would the world work? |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1947
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Assault suits have always been superior to Heavy suits once you get past level 2 dropsuits.
I trained up to my B series, got a couple good HMG fits and a Forge fit, and I don't plan on going any further into the Heavy class until it's fixed. Shotgun scouts are FAR superior to HMG Heavies in terms of kill potential, I just like the intimidation factor of dropping my heavy onto an objective and giving them hell
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Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
134
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Posted - 2013.03.09 16:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Saj T wrote: Some problems with your calculations here.
1) what the hell do these guys have equipped and what are their modules?
2) the larger hitbox of the heavy, larger spread of the HMG and slower turn ratio of the heavy are not taken into account.
3) Spread becomes an even bigger issue with the HMG when you're aiming at the head.
4) Did you take armor and shield into account when calculating effective HP versus the weapon type?
1) I can punch in just about any fit you like into the model. But for this same, I put damage mods on the Heavies, Shield extenders for the Assaults, armor rep in the low for each, and armor in any spare lows. Whip up any fits you like and I can run the numbers.
2) True enough. But is this any less true for a Heavy-II and Assault-II than it is for a proto heavy and a assault heavy?
I don't claim it's a perfect model, but the relative numbers are what matter. And they're relatively the same as the tech level goes up. If a Heavy-II beasts an Assault-II, a proto Heavy beats a proto Assault just as well. (A bit less, but still close.)
3) Aim for the shoulders and neck. Less bullets miss and people melt damn fast.
4) I took armor, shield, weapon damage type, HP modules, DPS and skill level into account. |
Firestorm Zulu
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
170
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Heavy suit is bad and you should feel bad. |
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ImperfectFan514
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Go assault...be a man :D LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Says the leader of the clan that lags worse than the Japanese, who still can't properly use vehicles. That one-dimensional thinking will make you lose every time. Enjoy paying for my merc's vacations across the stars.
Says the player in an NPC corp which would probably quit out of DUST after getting redlined in a CB and proceed to cry on the forums the opposing team was lagging like all the MLG PRO L33t tryhards that lack any real skill do. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
444
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 18:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Saj T wrote: Some problems with your calculations here.
1) what the hell do these guys have equipped and what are their modules?
2) the larger hitbox of the heavy, larger spread of the HMG and slower turn ratio of the heavy are not taken into account.
3) Spread becomes an even bigger issue with the HMG when you're aiming at the head.
4) Did you take armor and shield into account when calculating effective HP versus the weapon type?
1) I can punch in just about any fit you like into the model. But for this same, I put damage mods on the Heavies, Shield extenders for the Assaults, armor rep in the low for each, and armor in any spare lows. Whip up any fits you like and I can run the numbers. 2) True enough. But is this any less true for a Heavy-II and Assault-II than it is for a proto heavy and a assault heavy? I don't claim it's a perfect model, but the relative numbers are what matter. And they're relatively the same as the tech level goes up. If a Heavy-II beasts an Assault-II, a proto Heavy beats a proto Assault just as well. (A bit less, but still close.) 3) Aim for the shoulders and neck. Less bullets miss and people melt damn fast. 4) I took armor, shield, weapon damage type, HP modules, DPS and skill level into account. +1. Disturbingly Bored's is sound. |
Th3rdSun
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
325
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 21:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: I've been 3-shotted by the Kaalakiota. Pissed me off that a sniper rifle can do that much damage to a heavy suit, but when I notice a sniper shooting at the LAV I'm driving, whether shield or armor, it tickles it at best. I feel this is something CCP needs to address. It's blatantly obvious that snipers pummel everybody, but it's like pissing in the wind shooting at vehicles.
Why would you be pissed? 1) It's a proto sniper rifle,and 2) he probably either had damage mods,or was getting headshots,or both! If it was headshots with damage mods,you should be thankful that you didn't get dropped faster.
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Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
50
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Posted - 2013.03.09 21:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
The problem is not the heavy suit: The problem is you think that heavies are supposed to be able to solo. Assaults have a somewhat easier time soloing, but a good Heavy with a support logistics will DESTROY everyone around them, if they are good.
Keyword, if. |
undeadsoldier90
UnReaL.
236
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 21:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
I ran a heavy for almost a year.... switched to assault LR andAR..... I die a lot less kill a lot more and actually enjoy it. Heavy proto is ****. But dont switch unless you have high core skills and enough SP to jump right into b series. |
XxWarlordxX97
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
371
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 23:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
undeadsoldier90 wrote:I ran a heavy for almost a year.... switched to assault LR andAR..... I die a lot less kill a lot more and actually enjoy it. Heavy proto is ****. But dont switch unless you have high core skills and enough SP to jump right into b series.
do you guys have a channel i can join,you left the heavy |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3132
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 00:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
It seems like there will be assault dropsuits capable of using heavy weapons; happened in the recent "gathering forces" trailer, and in the new screenshots from the the visual effects devblog (look at the hands). If this happens, there won't be much reason for anyone to play as a heavy. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
382
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 00:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:So, I'm a bit of a dork. (We're all arguing over a videogame on the Internets, that shouldn't come as a surprise.) So I try to put numbers behind balance suggestions as best I can.
A Heavy-II kills an Assault-II in 0.78s. An Assault-II kills a Heavy-II in 1.94s. 149% difference in Heavy's favor.
A proto Heavy kills a proto shield Assault in 0.86s. A proto shield Assault kills a proto Heavy in 1.94s. 129% difference in Heavy's favor.
A Heavy-II (basic HMG) kills a proto shield Assault in 1.04s. A proto shield Assault kills a Heavy-II (basic HMG) in 1.76s. 69% difference in Heavy's favor. (!)
Really, I think the balance between the two is the same all the way up the technology scale. The problem is really the price.
(That, and the AR boys are getting better and better at headshots, while most Heavies are still aiming for center mass like morons.)
Fix the price and you'll fix the problem. Though I still think the proto Heavy suit needs another slot, most likely low slot for balance. Heavies can't strafe. Obviously if both are standing still the heavy will win, but that's not a realistic situation.
As for OP's question... yeah, I stopped after standard. Those 2 extra slots aren't worth all the extra SP investment IMHO. |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
390
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 00:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:It seems like there will be assault dropsuits capable of using heavy weapons; happened in the recent "gathering forces" trailer, and in the new screenshots from the the visual effects devblog (look at the hands). If this happens, there won't be much reason for anyone to play as a heavy. Pure speculation at this point (and monumentally stupid). Giving a Forge Gun to a class with speed and an equipment slot will ruin this game. Those weapons also have much higher PG and CPU requirements and were obviously meant only for the Heavy Dropsuit.
As to the OP's question I would say yea, you should probably switch. I ran heavy for a long time in the closed BETA and still go back to it every now and then for certain situations but the Assault Suit is just too versatile to not use. I know that's the way it should be but the discrepancy between the two is so large the Heavy class really doesn't seem like something meant to deploy on a regular basis.
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KING CHECKMATE
unlight9
13
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Posted - 2013.03.10 00:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
I feel you. I already gave up on heavies TT..TT. Its simply, pure image. You look big but a a Proto assault will most certenly be faster and with similar overall HP that you. So IMO it is pointless. Heavies only work vs Militia and Type 1-2 suits. Other than that they are screwed. Low fitting slots and high pices make them not worth your time : /
I still have my type - B there , in some occations i pull it out. But only when i see we have the advantage and i can camp a single objective and get lots of kills. This, specially happens vs noobie players.... vs Good players i dont even think of taking out the fat suit.... |
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