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Brush Master
HavoK Core
186
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Posted - 2013.03.04 18:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have seen some players confused over the WP gain on the repair tool, what is the time frame, how many point can you get in xx time frame, is there cap and so on.
Personally I am fine with the limits and I am making an assumption that the fix that was implemented was just a hot fix and way to stop abuse from the previous builds. When you are repairing someone, especially a heavy that has taken a lot of armor damage, you get a good amount of satisfaction of reward for staying with that heavy till he is repaired.
However, after you are done with the heavy, you turn to the guy beside him, he has damage as well, you repair him and you see no feedback from the system. The feeling is, well, disappointment? boredom? you understand the reasons why but you still want to have the feeling of gain.
I would like to see the repair system upgraded to a diminishing returns over time layout. Where you see +25 for the first couple repairs, but as it reaches the timeframe cap the wp gain reduces to +10, +5, +2, +1 and at the cap +1 is the lowest it would go. Over time, the cap increase / the wp cool down goes back down and the process starts again.
What are the benefits? well Logis are going to always feel like they are getting something, which is very important for anything that someone does. Hack a point, get wp, destroy something, get wp, heal something, I want the system to at least acknowledge the fact that something is being done and it's contributing to the success of the team.
I am sure it's not an easy request, but please consider it for a future release.
-Brush [email protected] |
Severus Smith
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
175
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 20:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not bad in my opinion. +1 WP per repair cycle (when DM hits) isn't game breaking and won't shoot Logi's to the top of the leaderboard every game. Logi's always need more love. They have to deal with the rest of us and keep us alive. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
Expert Intervention Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.03.04 22:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Good gravy! I have often wondered if I was witnessing a bug or some kind of repair cap.
Is there also a maximum to how much repaired health gives triage WP to anyone? I have noticed that a heavy who has been repaired several times by others often doesn't give me any WP if he keeps getting hurt. I'd like to see the diminishing returns in this situation. As a new logi helping the guy out, I feel like I get shafted because he gave WP to others when they healed him but none to me. |
Brush Master
HavoK Core
190
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote:Good gravy! I have often wondered if I was witnessing a bug or some kind of repair cap.
Is there also a maximum to how much repaired health gives triage WP to anyone? I have noticed that a heavy who has been repaired several times by others often doesn't give me any WP if he keeps getting hurt. I'd like to see the diminishing returns in this situation. As a new logi helping the guy out, I feel like I get shafted because he gave WP to others when they healed him but none to me.
You most likely did not heal for long enough or he reach max hp before it counted your points. I always assumed if 2 logis were healing someone, both would get wp for their own heals but off the top of my head, I have never really tested the situation. |
J Lav
Lost-Legion
30
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Posted - 2013.03.04 23:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm still trying to figure out if the WP cooldown is for triage only. It seems like right now, it neuters me for any WP if I cap the triage points. This has just driven me to be more of a combat medic, and provide less support. Hate to be a bad logi, but I get capped repping a single heavy before he's back to health.
So I'm just waiting till people die now and picking them up instead. Now I'm shooting, and getting a kill from the guy you weakened, then picking you up, giving me twice the WP, and I don't get capped in the process. |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
24
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Posted - 2013.03.05 00:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
My issue with the diminishing return is that it doesn't seem to reset until I totally stop repairing for a set time. I continue to rep even when not getting points, healing up at times 2-3 players, put down a hive, shoot a few rounds off, then go back to repping, and still nothing. And it continues to be nothing. It feels as though when I cap out the timer continues to reset (as in have to wait all over again until I get points). This causes me to use my rep tool until im capped, finishing that player, than ignoring all the rest as it does my team more good to continue gaining wp's for orbitals by going back to killing. This has caused me to personnaly invest more sp in weapons instead of better equipment. Not a bad thing, but it feels like a forced change, rather than letting me play them game I really intended to play. |
Wolfica
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.03.05 01:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
i dont feel like there should be a cap, i think for every 8 hp that are healed you should get 1 wp. this may not seam like a lot but say for a scout at the 190hp you could get up to 23 wp but healing a heavy thats almost dead and takes forever who has 750hp or more you can get around 100 wp. i like this idea more because alot of times as playing a heavy ill get logi's that heal you for 2 secounds to get their wp and then leave but im still at half health. |
Brush Master
HavoK Core
191
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Posted - 2013.03.05 02:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wolfica wrote:i dont feel like there should be a cap, i think for every 8 hp that are healed you should get 1 wp. this may not seam like a lot but say for a scout at the 190hp you could get up to 23 wp but healing a heavy thats almost dead and takes forever who has 750hp or more you can get around 100 wp. i like this idea more because alot of times as playing a heavy ill get logi's that heal you for 2 secounds to get their wp and then leave but im still at half health.
Not a bad idea. Either way we are all looking for constant system feedback and encouragement to keep doing it. I would like the level of the repair tool to effect the cap. There is very little reason for players to advance the tool. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1076
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Posted - 2013.03.05 02:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
My personal idea is to give the WP after you've finished repairing (or when you normally would stop gaining WP, to prevent abuse), with the WP gain based on how much you've repaired. |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
24
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Posted - 2013.03.05 03:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
The abuse was from people repping the mcc from a drop ship the whole match. We can not get wp from repping vehs and instalations because of this, which I accept. My issue is that Im not allowed to play this game as I wish without being punished for it. Logis trade bad ass weopens for uber repair items, and we do so willingly. I feel that this cap prevents me from playing this in a true support class style. Keeping people alive is just as important as killing the enemies, yet they would never put a diminishing return on getting WP's from kills. |
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Zarr Du'Kar
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
13
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Posted - 2013.03.05 07:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
No cap, just lower the repping points. Or at the very least shorten the time it takes to reset the WP earning from repping.
+5 WP per heal tick constantly no matter how long you heal over time.
It will limit the farming, and give Logis a reason to heal people regardless of the previous time healing others |
Brush Master
HavoK Core
240
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Posted - 2013.03.13 13:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:The abuse was from people repping the mcc from a drop ship the whole match. We can not get wp from repping vehs and instalations because of this, which I accept. My issue is that Im not allowed to play this game as I wish without being punished for it. Logis trade bad ass weopens for uber repair items, and we do so willingly. I feel that this cap prevents me from playing this in a true support class style. Keeping people alive is just as important as killing the enemies, yet they would never put a diminishing return on getting WP's from kills.
Yes, we need to feel like we are always getting something, even if it is diminishing returns over a time frame. |
Skihids
The Tritan Industries
1028
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Posted - 2013.03.13 17:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
After playing with this system for a long time the cool down timer does feel like a penalty.
The requirement that your healing target has damaged the enemy within a certain amount of time to yield triage points should be enough to prevent abuse. CCP loves to do things in excess however and tossed in the timer to overdo things.
The thing is, the timer often gets in the way. We might have a big fight and there will be a lot of healing to be done, but then a big delay before another big fight. In that case I get a few points each time before going into cool down and end up with a poor WP total for a lot of work.
Instead of looking for more mercs to heal I feel pushed to play assault with my MD and squishy logi suit.
I think CCP should eliminate the timer and reward for the armor repaired rather than by timed cycle. That would encourage use of more advanced repair tools and keep logis focused on their primary role. |
Val'herik Dorn
CrimeWave Syndicate
333
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Another thing that annoys me when i'm running as a logi is that if i use a higher tiered rep i get less points because they repair faster and more per cycle so i actually get less WP than i would with a lower tier mod.
So if i'm trying to cap out i run a less efficient mod so i can get more points. i would rather run the higher tier mod but aside from healing that heavy slightly faster. there is no benefit. I'll run the fancy stuff in a corp match where I won't get SP for participating so i have no reason to worry about my WP per SP but it makes me feel like i need to be less effective to maximize my WP/SP gain. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
809
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Brush Master wrote:I have seen some players confused over the WP gain on the repair tool, what is the time frame, how many point can you get in xx time frame, is there cap and so on. Personally I am fine with the limits and I am making an assumption that the fix that was implemented was just a hot fix and way to stop abuse from the previous builds. When you are repairing someone, especially a heavy that has taken a lot of armor damage, you get a good amount of satisfaction of reward for staying with that heavy till he is repaired. However, after you are done with the heavy, you turn to the guy beside him, he has damage as well, you repair him and you see no feedback from the system. The feeling is, well, disappointment? boredom? you understand the reasons why but you still want to have the feeling of gain. I would like to see the repair system upgraded to a diminishing returns over time layout. Where you see +25 for the first couple repairs, but as it reaches the timeframe cap the wp gain reduces to +10, +5, +2, +1 and at the cap +1 is the lowest it would go. Over time, the cap increase / the wp cool down goes back down and the process starts again. What are the benefits? well Logis are going to always feel like they are getting something, which is very important for anything that someone does. Hack a point, get wp, destroy something, get wp, heal something, I want the system to at least acknowledge the fact that something is being done and it's contributing to the success of the team. I am sure it's not an easy request, but please consider it for a future release. -Brush [email protected]
An interesting idea, and depending on implementation it could even (at least partly) address issues I and others have been raising for awhile in this thread EDIT: Val'herik Dorn has touched upon a key aspect of the linked thread in his post above.
+`1 and thanks for posting
Cheers, Cross |
Tiluvo
Digital Mercs
32
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Posted - 2013.03.13 19:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:The abuse was from people repping the mcc from a drop ship the whole match. We can not get wp from repping vehs and instalations because of this, which I accept. My issue is that Im not allowed to play this game as I wish without being punished for it. Logis trade bad ass weopens for uber repair items, and we do so willingly. I feel that this cap prevents me from playing this in a true support class style. Keeping people alive is just as important as killing the enemies, yet they would never put a diminishing return on getting WP's from kills.
You may accept this, but I don't. Logis and other repair tool users deserve WP's for fixing vehicles and installations for a number of reasons.
- No WP's for vehicle/installation repair makes the axle and inert repair tools useless. Why do I want a tool that's worse at the only thing I get rewarded for? Yes, the slower repair rate could be used to farm more WP's, but that's a different problem.
- Enemy HAV gunners love blasting CRU's and supply depots to bits. Keeping them intact is obviously beneficial to my team, where's my reward? And when installations are paid for and supplied by corps, fixing them should definitely be rewarded.
- I'm sure tankers would love to have more incentive for their logis to help them out. Repair farming could be kept down by using the same criteria as infantry repairs, "has the tank killed something recently?", and by not giving repair points to the vehicle owner, so they can't expose it to enemy fire and then hide in the red-line and farm.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 20:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Many good point brought up by everyone. The WP cap for repping is broken - it is also a pain not just from limiting the points gained from repping over time, but a person does not receive repping WP points after having gained a certain amount of WP in a specific time frame.
For example, If you are having a great slaying game and turn to your friend to rep them = no WP for repping. If you have done nothing but repping for the game = some WP every time the timer resets on the WP rep cap. Overall - broken in a bad way.
and Tiluvo - completely agree with you that there is no incentive to rep installations or vehicles, even though i try. I must imagine that CCP is working on a new system in order to continue playing. But good points. |
Tiluvo
Digital Mercs
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 21:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote: and Tiluvo - completely agree with you that there is no incentive to rep installations or vehicles, even though i try. I must imagine that CCP is working on a new system in order to continue playing. But good points.
Same here. And when faction warfare hits and we need to supply our own installations, I can see myself making a base defense fit with an inert repair tool. But I don't want to go the whole battle keeping CRU's and turrets working only to have nothing to show for it. +1 good sir |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
750
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 22:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Eh I don't see the problem personally.
Every player has a cap, to reset this "cap" they need to kill someone, so if you're babysitting a useless player who isn't getting any kills, move on. I don't need constant WP to tell me I'm doing a good job as a logi, I win the game because Im keeping everyone up, I'm still getting 25 points per triage providing that player has killed someone and 35 if I'm protecting that monster heavy.
It's a great system, they need to transfer it to Vehicles (Both shields and armor.) As it is, there is no point in being a Logi Vehicle to assist combat vehicles, I can sit behind a tank repping it with my own but I will not get points, thus an incentive for most players is non existant.
Also, Repping the MCC was a legit tactic, you used that dropship to help keep the MCC alive. Now slamming a Vehicle into a wall repeatedly and repping it was not cool. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
820
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 01:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Eh I don't see the problem personally.
Every player has a cap, to reset this "cap" they need to kill someone, so if you're babysitting a useless player who isn't getting any kills, move on. I don't need constant WP to tell me I'm doing a good job as a logi, I win the game because Im keeping everyone up, I'm still getting 25 points per triage providing that player has killed someone and 35 if I'm protecting that monster heavy. Unless you've hit your repair cap in which case you don't get WP for providing triage even if that player has killed someone recently or kills them while you are providing reps.
False and confusing feedback from the rewards system is also major issue for new players causing a great deal of frustration and reducing the accessibility of the game. I've lost count of the number of times I've now explained to confused players how the current repair tool awards work (even leaving aside how they interact with the injector awards) and had them say that it makes no sense, then get even more frustrated when they find out they'll be earning less if they upgrade beyond militia. War Points are supposed to be more than just 'loot' like the salvage system, they are supposed to be an indicator of effective contribution to victory within the match. When playing less effectively is rewarded more than effective play, and when actions with identical effects sometimes give rewards and sometimes fail too (absent any feedback from the UI) it' is a problem that breaks continuity with the meaning of War Points.
Quote: It's a great system, they need to transfer it to Vehicles (Both shields and armor.) As it is, there is no point in being a Logi Vehicle to assist combat vehicles, I can sit behind a tank repping it with my own but I will not get points, thus an incentive for most players is non existant.
Also, Repping the MCC was a legit tactic, you used that dropship to help keep the MCC alive. Now slamming a Vehicle into a wall repeatedly and repping it was not cool.
I do agree with you on all points here tho I will add that I find it odd CCP took away the "LAV bumper cars" farming exploit only to replace it with a 100% afk farming method when they changed to "1 sec = 5 sp" for SP gains thus creating a larger version of the same issue that requires even less effort for anyone to use. And now even if that new system in place there are still mechanical limits attached to the Repair Tools WP gains to prevent a form of farming which is less effective in the current build than spawning and walking away from the game to do something else.
0.02 ISK Cross |
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Brush Master
HavoK Core
250
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Posted - 2013.03.14 13:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:Another thing that annoys me when i'm running as a logi is that if i use a higher tiered rep i get less points because they repair faster and more per cycle so i actually get less WP than i would with a lower tier mod.
So if i'm trying to cap out i run a less efficient mod so i can get more points. i would rather run the higher tier mod but aside from healing that heavy slightly faster. there is no benefit. I'll run the fancy stuff in a corp match where I won't get SP for participating so i have no reason to worry about my WP per SP but it makes me feel like i need to be less effective to maximize my WP/SP gain.
Yes, totally annoying. Proto tool with 2 locks ons rules but you get less reward, definitely doesn't make sense but if we keep hammering them on it, it will change |
Aderek
HavoK Core
3
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hi :) Many ideas, many are goods :) But, i still cant see the timer in my rep.tool. In weapons i see how much i have ammo and clips, but in r.t. i see notning. So...i must decided who i repair first, because i dont know, that second person could be repaired. I dont like wait for death man in my squad and ther grab WP for pic up him (in mathematic is better wait for his dead and rev him 4 times ).
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