DUST Search - Territorial Warfare GÇô A Future Vision (Long, No TLDR)

Vaerana Myshtana wrote:

[quote=Marston VC]So I have a few questions about the Sov grinding that was mentioned in the dev blog/forums. CCP NULL said that attackers bring with them a certain amount of clones (as many as they want), and the defending district has whatevers on the district.

1a) If I understand the wiki ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest ) correctly, a district "under attack" cannot have clones moved into it.

1b) The devs said in their thread that people can see the clone count of districts from the starmap.

2) Corps can apparently launch as many attacks as they want, provided they are within 7 jumps of the target, have the clones to spare, and can actually fight all of those battles. If they attack, but lose, they lose at least 100 clones.

3) Apparently, you can pay Genolution to transport clones from planet to planet. Thus, you can drop X (minimum of 100) number of clones into any district. However, you lose a certain percentage based on the distance you move. So, to get 100 clones to a district 7 jumps away, you would need to move 500.

4) The losing team always loses a minimum of 100 clones. If one team doesn't show, they still lose 100 clones. Thus, if you attack District 9 three days in a row and they are no-shows, you would kill 300 clones and take the district.

5) At present, the method seems to be that we would fight skirmish battles ("Capture NULL cannons to destroy hostile MCC"). It is in the best interests of the defenders to destroy the attacker's MCC because they gain 20% of the attackers' remaining clones and potentially lose less than 100. It is in the best interests of the attackers to kill as many defending clones as possible to reduce the number of potential battles that it will take to capture the district.

6) As it looks from what I've read, the market will still be a region-agnostic NPC market.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 389	Posted - 2013.03.14 00:11:00 - [91] - Quote Random question- what do you think the Planetary District materials will be? Will they be: - New "nonsense" materials like in the example - Materials that are already used in EVE? ~ Planetary Interaction Materials ~ Moon Minerals ~ Sleeper Components ~ Asteroid Minerals - Some other idea I haven't listed?

CCP FoxFour C C P C C P Alliance 1346	Posted - 2013.03.14 00:28:00 - [92] - Quote I actually only just saw this thread, not sure how I missed it but I am really sorry. I am going to hold off responding for now as I am really busy right now, but I have bookmarked this and will be back to respond. Keep up the awesome discussion though guys! :D

Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 396	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:51:00 - [93] - Quote Yay! We got CCP FoxFour!
Illuminaughty-696 Omega Risk Control Services 216	Posted - 2013.03.14 13:58:00 - [94] - Quote +1. I was all hesitant when I saw the ability to restrict battle size, imagining corps doing it to every district and ward, but then I read the whole thing. Good work. And someone said there must be a battle. I don't think so. If the defending corp doesn't issue a contracts, either due to a lack of funds or because they forgot, then oh well. Sometimes in real life we reach the battlefield only to find out there is not battle, the enemy didn't show.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 253	Posted - 2013.03.14 14:02:00 - [95] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: I actually only just saw this thread, not sure how I missed it but I am really sorry. I am going to hold off responding for now as I am really busy right now, but I have bookmarked this and will be back to respond. Keep up the awesome discussion though guys! :D Hes awake \o/
Illuminaughty-696 Omega Risk Control Services 216	Posted - 2013.03.14 14:05:00 - [96] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Passive SP Bonus wrote: Is there going to be a way to sell districts? I honestly don't know if it's in the cards. There was another thread where it was discussed and CCP FoxFour seemed to suggest that it was not really a priority. I guess for me the priority needs to be on resource diversity, and to make district conquest feel like warfare instead of just a single Ambush match. Selling could be done by proxy. Basically, the owner wanting to sell it would arrange payment (before or after, depending on who trusts who how much, heck we'd likely see such and such up front, and the rest on delivery type agreements ,too). After payment arrangements and any necessary up front transfers are done, then the buyer 'attacks' the planet, by sending in DUST mercs to secure their new purchase. Of course, this is the point where the potential for double cross kicks in, as it should. The seller could have a DUST merc corp waiting and then refuse to hand it over (in theory after having received some payment at least, otherwise they're idjits). Or, the buyer could arrive, claim their purchase, then refuse to pay. Wars have been started over less. The only law is the law of might in null-sec after all. Maybe low-sec will have Concord-guaranteed transactions at some point, but I don't see it as necessary. In a truly player driven economy we can find a way to make it work. Trust will be key, and some corps will be rated as trustworthy, and others will become known as treacherous. Sellers and buyers who don't take the time to figure out who they're dealing with deserve the repercussions. New Eden's just that kind of place.
Charlotte O'Dell Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 43	Posted - 2013.03.14 15:21:00 - [97] - Quote KING ZUMA wrote: these would last hours or even days we would just have to make sure that you have enough corp members online at all times to keep up the fight Our corp is huge. +1
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 399	Posted - 2013.03.14 15:33:00 - [98] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: KING ZUMA wrote: these would last hours or even days we would just have to make sure that you have enough corp members online at all times to keep up the fight Our corp is huge. +1 My fail is huge.
DOCTOR WHO Clone The Last Time-Lord 6	Posted - 2013.03.14 16:31:00 - [99] - Quote +1..... I couldn't have said it better myself. Wow this is one hell of a idea son. I have to hand it to you. On even coming up with something of this level.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 575	Posted - 2013.03.14 20:54:00 - [100] - Quote http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/03/planetary-conquest/ WHAT!

Kaerala Myshtana Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:34:00 - [101] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/03/planetary-conquest/ WHAT! It's WAY shy of what I'd like to see, but... Well, it is a beta. Of course, they have also promised us a market in this upcoming build: Quote: The primary wartime commodity in DUST 514 is the military-grade clone. In order to gain a strong foothold and assert dominance in a region, you will need a steady supply of replacement bodies. Controlling a single district will generate clones over time. If you end up producing more than you need, *the excess clones can be sold for profit.* Nothing about other forms of money/resources, though. However, if I am understanding the devblog correctly, it sounds like all district conquest will be AMBUSH with the defender's clone count being drawn from the district. My guess, then, is that Genolution will ferry attackers to districts and supply clones to them at a cost. The defender will be able to resist with whatever they have in the district.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 401	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:36:00 - [102] - Quote Oh kitten. I posted that as my RP character. :P
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 674	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:39:00 - [103] - Quote If I remember the "Seeding the Universe" presentation I think they said they originally thought about tiling the entire planet surface with hexagons but then thought better of it. I believe there is no set geometric shape for districts at this point. Now will go back to reading the rest of this discussion...
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 674	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:59:00 - [104] - Quote Kaerala Myshtana wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/03/planetary-conquest/ WHAT! It's WAY shy of what I'd like to see, but... Well, it is a beta. Of course, they have also promised us a market in this upcoming build: Quote: The primary wartime commodity in DUST 514 is the military-grade clone. In order to gain a strong foothold and assert dominance in a region, you will need a steady supply of replacement bodies. Controlling a single district will generate clones over time. If you end up producing more than you need, *the excess clones can be sold for profit.* Nothing about other forms of money/resources, though. However, if I am understanding the devblog correctly, it sounds like all district conquest will be AMBUSH with the defender's clone count being drawn from the district. My guess, then, is that Genolution will ferry attackers to districts and supply clones to them at a cost. The defender will be able to resist with whatever they have in the district. All district conquest will be skirmish. Check out the EVE wiki link... http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 406	Posted - 2013.03.15 00:07:00 - [105] - Quote Frak. No player market. Selling clones is a fixed 100,000 ISK: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest It will also cost 20,000,000 ISK to buy 100 clones from Genolution and they will only sell to you if you don't have any districts. Apparently, all PC will (Dust may not be on the PC- but PC will be in Dust! ) occur in Skirmish as the rules on the wiki specify "kill the MCC". It looks like conquering your first district will cost 20,000,000 ISK- assuming it is unowned. Your district will then generate 40 clones per day up to a maximum of 300. Assuming that you got to keep all 100 of your initial clones that would mean that you would reach maximum in 5 days. However, assuming that the rest of your planet is unoccupied, you would probably move 100 clones to a nearby district on Day 2, leaving 40 clones to defend your district. Then it would take 8 days to max out the district, at the end of which your corp would make 2,000,000 ISK from selling 20 excess clones. Every day after that, you would make 4,000,000 ISK from any maxed out district. At that rate, you could buy a Surface Infrastructure upgrade (100,000,000 ISK) after 25 days based solely on the income from the district.
sir ravenwing stone wolves 5	Posted - 2013.03.15 00:23:00 - [106] - Quote no way i have ever seen a idea this brilliant if they make this happen i would gladly fight beside the one who made it come true *salute HEY CCP PEOPLE LIKE HER ARE PEOPLE YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO +1 from me
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 109	Posted - 2013.03.15 00:27:00 - [107] - Quote So I have a few questions about the Sov grinding that was mentioned in the dev blog/forums. CCP NULL said that attackers bring with them a certain amount of clones (as many as they want), and the defending district has whatevers on the district. Soooooo heres a few questions about that.... 1.) Can you redistribute clones from one district to another while its in its "seige" mode?? Thus making it impossible to out grind their clones simply because they make a whole planets worth per day? 1/b.) Can attackers see the clone count on each district before attacking? 2.) Can a corp launch mulitple attacks on every district at once if they want to? or do they need to own a district adjacent to whatever district they want to attack? 3.) if the answer is that they do, how does a corp go about attacking a district on a planet entirely owned by one corp? 4.) NULL only mentioned winning a district by out grinding the other teams clones, ok thats fine but what if the other team just doesn't show up? You cant grind out their clones if nobody is there to die... 5.) so that leads up to me asking if theres going to be some other method of taking a district.... like via objectives or something?? Do the defenders have to actaully..... defend an objective? like a massive console that just blows up their mcc if we capture it? or perhaps like the current skirmish?? (i hope not). 6.) also regarding the whole market/selling clones. Is the market regional? does it work like how eve does where you have to pick up the items bought at the station it was sold at? Or will it all be just one massive market? If it is a regional system then how will that work? what type of transport can dust players used? Personally i would like the regional system as it makes the market more complex, but i could understand if thats just not something we want to do with dust.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 406	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:27:00 - [108] - Quote Marston VC wrote: So I have a few questions about the Sov grinding that was mentioned in the dev blog/forums. CCP NULL said that attackers bring with them a certain amount of clones (as many as they want), and the defending district has whatevers on the district. Soooooo heres a few questions about that.... 1.) Can you redistribute clones from one district to another while its in its "seige" mode?? Thus making it impossible to out grind their clones simply because they make a whole planets worth per day? 1/b.) Can attackers see the clone count on each district before attacking? 2.) Can a corp launch mulitple attacks on every district at once if they want to? or do they need to own a district adjacent to whatever district they want to attack? 3.) if the answer is that they do, how does a corp go about attacking a district on a planet entirely owned by one corp? 4.) NULL only mentioned winning a district by out grinding the other teams clones, ok thats fine but what if the other team just doesn't show up? You cant grind out their clones if nobody is there to die... 5.) so that leads up to me asking if theres going to be some other method of taking a district.... like via objectives or something?? Do the defenders have to actaully..... defend an objective? like a massive console that just blows up their mcc if we capture it? or perhaps like the current skirmish?? (i hope not). 6.) also regarding the whole market/selling clones. Is the market regional? does it work like how eve does where you have to pick up the items bought at the station it was sold at? Or will it all be just one massive market? If it is a regional system then how will that work? what type of transport can dust players used? Personally i would like the regional system as it makes the market more complex, but i could understand if thats just not something we want to do with dust. Okay, to be fair, this is better address by the devs in their thread ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63760 ) but I'll take a stab at it just to see if I'm understanding it. 1a) If I understand the wiki ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest ) correctly, a district "under attack" cannot have clones moved into it. 1b) The devs said in their thread that people can see the clone count of districts from the starmap. 2) Corps can apparently launch as many attacks as they want, provided they are within 7 jumps of the target, have the clones to spare, and can actually fight all of those battles. If they attack, but lose, they lose at least 100 clones. 3) Apparently, you can pay Genolution to transport clones from planet to planet. Thus, you can drop X (minimum of 100) number of clones into any district. However, you lose a certain percentage based on the distance you move. So, to get 100 clones to a district 7 jumps away, you would need to move 500. 4) The losing team always loses a minimum of 100 clones. If one team doesn't show, they still lose 100 clones. Thus, if you attack District 9 three days in a row and they are no-shows, you would kill 300 clones and take the district. 5) At present, the method seems to be that we would fight skirmish battles ("Capture NULL cannons to destroy hostile MCC"). It is in the best interests of the defenders to destroy the attacker's MCC because they gain 20% of the attackers' remaining clones and potentially lose less than 100. It is in the best interests of the attackers to kill as many defending clones as possible to reduce the number of potential battles that it will take to capture the district. 6) As it looks from what I've read, the market will still be a region-agnostic NPC market.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1242	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:56:00 - [109] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: See, I like this because it contains several similar ideas to what I put forward in a thread of my own. +1 from me. Well, I guess you're just awesome too. We should form an awesome club. Indeed we should. I love today's announcement, but I hope they implement a system similar to what you and I have put forward in the future.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 406	Posted - 2013.03.15 02:17:00 - [110] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: See, I like this because it contains several similar ideas to what I put forward in a thread of my own. +1 from me. Well, I guess you're just awesome too. We should form an awesome club. Indeed we should. I love today's announcement, but I hope they implement a system similar to what you and I have put forward in the future. I need to go back and add clone production to my initial post... Not tonight though. I'm getting tired.

Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 589	Posted - 2013.03.15 23:13:00 - [111] - Quote Let's get down to Nitty Gritty Economics, SP, and Eve *Economics:* So given that infrastructure will be pricey so to keep it level on the Actions Vs. Consequences as well as to prevent everyone and their mother can't operate mining facilities and Space Cannons. But let's compare the income of Dust Vs Eve. And before I start, I do keep in mind that Dust income won't be solely from battling as a Dev replied in a thread on Proto Gear Vs. Income. Also keep in mind that although I've accumulated a decent stack of knowledge of Eve, I don't play it. Eve players roam around in things more expensive than almost everything in the Dust market (I've heard a basic Frigate goes relatively cheap). However they have the choice to partake in low risk activities such as mining High Sec. Meanwhile in Dust, neglecting starter fits as they are let's say "Non Effective" (in future terms). So the initial investment in EVE yields both a secure and more fruitful profit. Meanwhile in Dust, conflict is unavoidable, it's what we do. So using lower tier gear cannot be linked to profit, so ISK is going to be lost in the end, reducing total profit. The Dust investor is at odds with the Eve player, as the Eve player is expending minimal ISK and yielding both higher profit numbers and rates (correct me if High Sec is expensive for some reason, then you made my argument bunk and you win!) while Dust investor is make minimal returns on the safe investment. Not to mention how variable will be more likely stacked against you in the Dust world (Pub Stomping, Proto vs. Militia, Human Error) compare to Eve (Belt was already mined, extremely random and a 1/250,000 chance of being struck by suicidal Pirates in high sec). So back to infrastructure, here we have two corps of equal numbers, one comprised of only Dust players, one of only Eve players. They both have a district and are planning to develop. The Eve corp yields higher security and profit and thus establishes infrastructure not only first but also the most. The Dust corp would have problems coming up with the money to develop. Now we get to a hypothetical scenario. INVASION. Eve Corp District is getting invaded! No problem, take a cut of profit and hire a Dust Corp to fight the ground for you and bring out your own big guns you've had stocked. Dust corp is nigh broke and can only afford a small Eve Corp to bring the heat in space...that Eve corp bails after seeing the Eve corp forces and leaves the ground forces without OBS. In the end, the ISK advantage Eve Corp had brought the hell down on Dust corp.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 589	Posted - 2013.03.15 23:14:00 - [112] - Quote Final thing: SP How would that work? Especially with different earning systems in Dust and Eve.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 116	Posted - 2013.03.16 00:56:00 - [113] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: [quote=Marston VC]So I have a few questions about the Sov grinding that was mentioned in the dev blog/forums. CCP NULL said that attackers bring with them a certain amount of clones (as many as they want), and the defending district has whatevers on the district. 1a) If I understand the wiki ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest ) correctly, a district "under attack" cannot have clones moved into it. 1b) The devs said in their thread that people can see the clone count of districts from the starmap. 2) Corps can apparently launch as many attacks as they want, provided they are within 7 jumps of the target, have the clones to spare, and can actually fight all of those battles. If they attack, but lose, they lose at least 100 clones. 3) Apparently, you can pay Genolution to transport clones from planet to planet. Thus, you can drop X (minimum of 100) number of clones into any district. However, you lose a certain percentage based on the distance you move. So, to get 100 clones to a district 7 jumps away, you would need to move 500. 4) The losing team always loses a minimum of 100 clones. If one team doesn't show, they still lose 100 clones. Thus, if you attack District 9 three days in a row and they are no-shows, you would kill 300 clones and take the district. 5) At present, the method seems to be that we would fight skirmish battles ("Capture NULL cannons to destroy hostile MCC"). It is in the best interests of the defenders to destroy the attacker's MCC because they gain 20% of the attackers' remaining clones and potentially lose less than 100. It is in the best interests of the attackers to kill as many defending clones as possible to reduce the number of potential battles that it will take to capture the district. 6) As it looks from what I've read, the market will still be a region-agnostic NPC market. yup most of that has been covered in the main announcement thread at this point.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 412	Posted - 2013.03.16 19:05:00 - [114] - Quote Marston VC wrote: yup most of that has been covered in the main announcement thread at this point. Cool. I was trying to interpret the announcement thread and wiki on the fly, so I'm glad it's mostly sensical.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 413	Posted - 2013.03.16 19:19:00 - [115] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Let's get down to Nitty Gritty Economics, SP, and Eve So given that infrastructure will be pricey so to keep it level on the Actions Vs. Consequences as well as to prevent everyone and their mother can't operate mining facilities and Space Cannons. But let's compare the income of Dust Vs Eve. ... In the end, the ISK advantage Eve Corp had brought the hell down on Dust corp. The EVE player is not necessarily making serious bank without risk. While some of my relatives pull down hundreds of millions of ISK in hisec, they're treeing together a bunch of different production methods through one member who has really high-end Industry skills. As in, building up an industrial base since 2008 (and a former director of this) type skills and equipment. If they were less risk-averse, they could easily double that by operating in losec. As part of a nullsec alliance, they could potentially make five, ten, or twenty times that, depending on what part of nullsec and how strong the alliance was. It's also worth noting, at least in the short term, that EVE players cannot own districts. Their corp would need at least one Dust player in a director role, and since EVE cannot transfer ISK to Dust, that one player would need to supply the entire 20M ISK themselves. My hope is that there will be a much larger variety of income streams in Dust before we ever have to worry about capsuleers hiring PFBHz to stomp districts for them. By that point we should also have the anti-ship weapons and more ISK in our pockets (at least if we own districts). BTW, if you'd like to try out EVE, I can have one of my relatives send you an invite. You get a longer free trial that way. They can also give you some help in hisec stuff.
Passive SP Bonus Ongoing Renovation Endless Renaissance 3	Posted - 2013.03.18 12:38:00 - [116] - Quote Did they say that they are not doing this in the dev blog?
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 420	Posted - 2013.03.18 12:46:00 - [117] - Quote Passive SP Bonus wrote: Did they say that they are not doing this in the dev blog? The current dev blog doesn't include anything similar to this. However, they seem to be indicating that there will be more complexity added once the core planetary conquest mechanics are tested out.
General Tiberius1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 232	Posted - 2013.03.18 18:08:00 - [118] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: I actually only just saw this thread, not sure how I missed it but I am really sorry. I am going to hold off responding for now as I am really busy right now, but I have bookmarked this and will be back to respond. Keep up the awesome discussion though guys! :D can't believe i missed this one pays more attention to general discussion from now on
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 627	Posted - 2013.03.20 06:12:00 - [119] - Quote Anything left to discuss? Such a good thread...
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1236	Posted - 2013.03.20 09:28:00 - [120] - Quote What about upgrades that can only be built on held districts? If you want a dueling arena, or a VR practice room, or a drving course, you can install these upgrades. Destroying an opponents training facilities is far more interesting than cut their profits by .05%. Also gives space a "home" aspect that you can't simply abandon certain districts willy nilly because a tough challenge came knocking on your doorstop.



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