DUST Search - Swarm Launcher vs. Forge Gun

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

Swarm Launcher Mathematics
Across the board for all Swarm Variants, the damage is 300 per missile. However, let's factor in skills and other components to meta levels of the swarm launcher.
If you were to max out Weaponry and Swarm Launcher proficiency...
300x1.1x1.15=379.5. So with maximum damage skills, you'll be doing 379.5 damage per missile.
Missiles Per shot:

Standard=4
Advanced=5
Prototype=6

So the damage per shot with just maximum skills is...

Standard= 379.5 x 4 = 1518
Advanced=379.5 x 5 = 1897.5
Prototype=379.5 x 6 = 2277

Let's go further...

Every swarm launcher can carry a maximum of 6 shots. So, the total damage you can do without resupplying nor damage mods is the damage per shot multiplied by 6.

Standard Total Damage: 9,108
Advanced Total Damage: 11,385
Prototype Total Damage: 13,662

But what about damage Mods?

For the sake of simplicity, let's just say you're running one Complex Damage Module (+10%) with your Swarm Launcher. So your damage with skills and a damage mod would be: 300x1.1x1.15x1.1=417.45

Standard Level: 417.45x4=1669.8
Advanced Level: 417.45x5=2087.25
Prototype Level: 417.45x6=2504.7

Now Let's factor in the total number of shots you can take: (6)

Total Standard Damage: 1669.8x6= 10,018.8
Total Advanced Damage: 2087.25x6= 12,523.5
Total Prototype Damage: 2504.7x6= 15,028.2

There you have it, the damage levels of Swarm Launchers, skills, meta level, and a Complex Damage Module included.

-Bojo's School of the Trades

Post Note: Thank you Synner Zeg, I had calculated these numbers on an incorrect skill base system but was corrected and this information should now be accurate.

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Jack Sharkey42 Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:18:00 - [1] - Quote Now I'm sure this comparison has been made before, but I'm curious as to how this scales once you get more advanced in the skills and get the better weapons. I put a few pros/cons below but I'd love to hear more from all of you! What do you think becomes the best AV weapon later in the game if you've really specc'd into it a bit? Swarm Launchers Pros: Greater Range Homing Damage done is per rocket, and higher levels have more rockets, each of which benefit from damage mods (someone math at that for me) Cons: Reload time No anti-personnel ability Projectiles are slow Projectiles are sometimes stupid as hell Lock on time Forge Guns Pros: Big burst damage Anti-personnel if needed Improvised sniper potential Faster fire and reload Cons: No homing Shorter Range Charge up time Heavy dependent
OMI43221 Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:17:00 - [2] - Quote You forgot to mention one con for the forge gun...you have to be a fatty.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 114	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:18:00 - [3] - Quote can add that forge is hybrid damage, and swarms are explosive. Hybrid damage is equal to shields and armor, but explosive deals less damage to shield than normal and more damage to armor than normal.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:35:00 - [4] - Quote I'm not sure where this would go, but good LAVs have an easy time not getting killed by forges, while swarms are a pain in the ass.
Vel'sar Altruin Shadow Company HQ 5	Posted - 2013.02.20 23:24:00 - [5] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm not sure where this would go, but good LAVs have an easy time not getting killed by forges, while swarms are a pain in the ass. Really? It is the other way around for me on my AV character. Pull out Swarms for tanks and bad drop ship pilots, pull out Forge Guns for LAV's and good Drop Ship pilots.
Free Healing L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2013.02.21 01:24:00 - [6] - Quote Forge Guns are the clear winner in all aspects. Keep the faith.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.21 03:26:00 - [7] - Quote Free Healing wrote: Forge Guns are the clear winner in all aspects. Keep the faith. For once bro I have to disagree with you. Swarms are the winner when it comes to cover. Yes you can use a Forge from cover (and you should) but if you employ the zoom of the swarms scope you're able to lock a target with only a corner of it's hitbox showing and then "jump shot" or "over hand toss" (the first being what it sounds like, jump then shoot, the second being turning away while you have a lock to force the missile pathing to clear/go around obstructions) the swarms all the while remaining in 95-100% cover relative to your target (and being able to do so at range unlike the AV nade). There's also the "fire and forget" aspect of the swarm, you can pop off a volley at a vehicle quick swap to your sidearm and kill incoming infantry and back to the swarms to continue the assault (I've done this as recently as tonight to great effect). The final aspect I'd like to draw attention to is Orbital Bombardment (not to be confused with the Precision Strikes from the MCC). The EM orbital will strip the shields off of (at this point) everything within the radius of effect (which it's worth noting is larger than the standard precision strike). Send a flight of swarms (with their extra damage to armor) into the now completely shield-less targets on the board and you'll make short work of them, all the more because those flights will track allowing you to choose a new target as soon as you release a volley. Now on average I would say that the Forge is the strongest AV weapon in the game (need for a fat suit aside), but knowing the special circumstances in which a swarm launcher can really shine is still of value. There's also one closing element to consider, SP and ISK cost to field. The cost to field a Forge is higher in both SP and ISK. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: One other note, the swarm is a light weapon meaning that all those light weapon upgrades you've (presumably) taken to make your AR, laser, mass, et al function better will be enhancing your swarms as well (of course if you primary as heavy this applies to the forge rather than the swarm).
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 04:09:00 - [8] - Quote Swarm Launcher Mathematics Across the board for all Swarm Variants, the damage is 300 per missile. However, let's factor in skills and other components to meta levels of the swarm launcher. If you were to max out Weaponry and Swarm Launcher proficiency... 300x1.1x1.15=379.5. So with maximum damage skills, you'll be doing 379.5 damage per missile. Missiles Per shot: Standard=4 Advanced=5 Prototype=6 So the damage per shot with just maximum skills is... Standard= 379.5 x 4 = 1518 Advanced=379.5 x 5 = 1897.5 Prototype=379.5 x 6 = 2277 Let's go further... Every swarm launcher can carry a maximum of 6 shots. So, the total damage you can do without resupplying nor damage mods is the damage per shot multiplied by 6. Standard Total Damage: 9,108 Advanced Total Damage: 11,385 Prototype Total Damage: 13,662 But what about damage Mods? For the sake of simplicity, let's just say you're running one Complex Damage Module (+10%) with your Swarm Launcher. So your damage with skills and a damage mod would be: 300x1.1x1.15x1.1=417.45 Standard Level: 417.45x4=1669.8 Advanced Level: 417.45x5=2087.25 Prototype Level: 417.45x6=2504.7 Now Let's factor in the total number of shots you can take: (6) Total Standard Damage: 1669.8x6= 10,018.8 Total Advanced Damage: 2087.25x6= 12,523.5 Total Prototype Damage: 2504.7x6= 15,028.2 There you have it, the damage levels of Swarm Launchers, skills, meta level, and a Complex Damage Module included. -Bojo's School of the Trades Post Note: Thank you Synner Zeg, I had calculated these numbers on an incorrect skill base system but was corrected and this information should now be accurate.
Alderstaz Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.02.21 16:10:00 - [9] - Quote Are you sure about those numbers? I don't have it handy, but from how other items i've used I'm pretty sure its: 300 x 1.25 x 1.1 for 412.5 per missile 1650 for 4 2062.5 for 5 2475 for 6 I guess I'll check later. Totally forgot about damage mods to get past HAV auto repair. Still a losing proposition for Swarmer, house always wins type deal with clone/Isk loss due to tank just fighting you, while you fight every red with your sidearm...
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 197	Posted - 2013.02.21 16:51:00 - [10] - Quote assault FG = 1260dmg every 2.5 sec weaponry 5 = 1575 1 x complex = 1733 Fg lv...4 = 1733/2sec 4 shots a clip = 6932dmg /8 sec
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.21 17:23:00 - [11] - Quote For LAV, flux grenade and MD will take them down pretty quick too. HAV, depends on shield lvl... a true shield tank, forget about it, but it does **** them off pretty quick.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 114	Posted - 2013.02.21 17:52:00 - [12] - Quote M3DIC 2U wrote: For LAV, flux grenade and MD will take them down pretty quick too. HAV, depends on shield lvl... a true shield tank, forget about it, but it does **** them off pretty quick. They do almost nothing against armor. So don't use them against armor LAV or HAV regular grenades do almost nothing to any vehicle.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 18:54:00 - [13] - Quote Alderstaz wrote: Are you sure about those numbers? I don't have it handy, but from how other items i've used I'm pretty sure its: 300 x 1.25 x 1.1 for 412.5 per missile 1650 for 4 2062.5 for 5 2475 for 6 I guess I'll check later. Totally forgot about damage mods to get past HAV auto repair. Still a losing proposition for Swarmer, house always wins type deal with clone/Isk loss due to tank just fighting you, while you fight every red with your sidearm... I used to think that it worked completely by multiplication, but what they actually do is add all the percentages up (I'm pretty sure). So Weaponry Level 5= +10% Proficiency Level 5= +15% Complex Damage Mod= +10% Sum Damage Multiplier=+35% It works like this to make sure that damage doesn't get exponentially bigger with skills and mods, more linear. If we were to operate on a system like that, damage dealt from skills alone would look like this... 300x1.02^5x1.03^5=383.979 Separating the skills and multiplying adds more damage than just summing the bonuses and multiplying. However the damage multiplier on stat fittings doesn't increase with skills so I may have to take another look into this.
Synner Zerg SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 3	Posted - 2013.02.21 22:10:00 - [14] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Swarm Launcher Mathematics Across the board for all Swarm Variants, the damage is 300 per missile. However, let's factor in skills and other components to meta levels of the swarm launcher. If you were to max out Weaponry and Swarm Launcher proficiency... 300x1.25=375. So with maximum damage skills, you'll be doing 375 damage per missile. Missiles Per shot: Standard=4 Advanced=5 Prototype=6 So the damage per shot with just maximum skills is... Standard= 375x4=1500 Advanced=375x5=1875 Prototype=375x6=2250 Let's go further... Every swarm launcher can carry a maximum of 6 shots. So, the total damage you can do without resupplying nor damage mods is the damage per shot multiplied by 6. Standard Total Damage: 9,000 Advanced Total Damage: 11,250 Prototype Total Damage: 13,500 But what about damage Mods? For the sake of simplicity, let's just say you're running one Complex Damage Module (+10%) with your Swarm Launcher. So your damage with skills and a damage mod would be: 300x1.35=405 Standard Level: 405x4=1620 Advanced Level: 405x5=2025 Prototype Level: 405x6=2430 Now Let's factor in the total number of shots you can take: (6) Total Standard Damage: 1620x6= 9,720 Total Advanced Damage: 2025x6= 12,150 Total Prototype Damage: 2430x6= 14,580 There you have it, the damage levels of Swarm Launchers, skills, meta level, and a Complex Damage Module included. -Bojo's School of the Trades I am sorry, but as you mentioned in your other post (although for some reason you don't believe it), the different skills and mods are compounded (multiplication), only the skills levels of the same skills are additive. Following the same structure as your post, it is: Per missile: 300 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 379.5 (round down to 379) Per shot: Standard= 379 * 4 = 1516 Advanced=379 * 5 = 1895 Prototype=379 * 6 = 2274 Per reload: Standard Total Damage: 9,096 Advanced Total Damage: 11,370 Prototype Total Damage: 13,644 Damage mods: The 10% is not just added. It is compounded with Weaponry Bonus and Prof Bonus, so 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.3915 or 39.15% (not 35%) Standard Level: 417 * 4= 1668 Advanced Level: 417 * 5= 2085 Prototype Level: 417 * 6= 2502 Total Standard Damage: 1668 * 6 = 10,008 Total Advanced Damage: 2085 * 6 = 12,510 Total Prototype Damage: 2502 * 6 = 15,012 I've did extensive research into this with proof here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=550560#post550560
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 22:39:00 - [15] - Quote Synner Zerg wrote: Correct Math Thank you, I will update mine now. I've just heard many different sides. I used to think that skills operated similarly but apparently I was wrong about that as well, so I assumed that everything was additive after that. So why doesn't skill levels of the same skill work like that? Currently we operate on 2%+2%+2%+2%+2%=10% Why not (((((Damagex1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)? 300x1.1=330 (((((300x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)=331.22 The skills are inconsistent see? Why do they sum the same skill and not compound it like the others?
redline sniper Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:22:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: There's also the "fire and forget" aspect of the swarm, you can pop off a volley at a vehicle quick swap to your sidearm and kill incoming infantry and back to the swarms to continue the assault (I've done this as recently as tonight to great effect). xd, because you can not take cover and switch to your secondary weapon right after having shot your FG, right? This 'fire and forget' applies to every weapon, just the swarm does not get immediate response, its target is given a few seconds to dogdge it, keep shooting, repair itself of the last hit or just look for the jet trail to identify the possition of the the SL user. I think you can even shoot down the missiles.
redline sniper Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:27:00 - [17] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Swarm Launcher Mathematics Across the board for all Swarm Variants, the damage is 300 per missile. However, let's factor in skills and other components to meta levels of the swarm launcher. If you were to max out Weaponry and Swarm Launcher proficiency... 300x1.1x1.15=379.5. So with maximum damage skills, you'll be doing 379.5 damage per missile. Missiles Per shot: Standard=4 Advanced=5 Prototype=6 So the damage per shot with just maximum skills is... Standard= 379.5 x 4 = 1518 Advanced=379.5 x 5 = 1897.5 Prototype=379.5 x 6 = 2277 Let's go further... Every swarm launcher can carry a maximum of 6 shots. So, the total damage you can do without resupplying nor damage mods is the damage per shot multiplied by 6. Standard Total Damage: 9,108 Advanced Total Damage: 11,385 Prototype Total Damage: 13,662 But what about damage Mods? For the sake of simplicity, let's just say you're running one Complex Damage Module (+10%) with your Swarm Launcher. So your damage with skills and a damage mod would be: 300x1.1x1.15x1.1=417.45 Standard Level: 417.45x4=1669.8 Advanced Level: 417.45x5=2087.25 Prototype Level: 417.45x6=2504.7 Now Let's factor in the total number of shots you can take: (6) Total Standard Damage: 1669.8x6= 10,018.8 Total Advanced Damage: 2087.25x6= 12,523.5 Total Prototype Damage: 2504.7x6= 15,028.2 There you have it, the damage levels of Swarm Launchers, skills, meta level, and a Complex Damage Module included. -Bojo's School of the Trades Post Note: Thank you Synner Zeg, I had calculated these numbers on an incorrect skill base system but was corrected and this information should now be accurate. What's the the total damage on a HMG... 700*16=11'200, something like that? You need to factor a few more parameters here...time, hit%. It aint that simple.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:28:00 - [18] - Quote Vel'sar Altruin wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm not sure where this would go, but good LAVs have an easy time not getting killed by forges, while swarms are a pain in the ass. Really? It is the other way around for me on my AV character. Pull out Swarms for tanks and bad drop ship pilots, pull out Forge Guns for LAV's and good Drop Ship pilots. I've found that the only real way to survive swarms in an LAV is to drive into cover as quickly as possible and hope you can tank enough damage to make it. Meanwhile, good LAVs can usually survive getting hit once or twice by a forge, but are agile enough to have an easy time avoiding getting hit in the first place.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:32:00 - [19] - Quote redline sniper wrote: What's the the total damage on a HMG... 700*16=11'200, something like that? You need to factor a few more parameters here...time, hit%. It aint that simple. I don't see what you're getting at. You want me to factor in the chance of a hit? The Swarm Launcher does all the work for you, there's only fire interval that can be calculated and reload time, but that doesn't change the damage you've dealt. Elaborate.
redline sniper Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:56:00 - [20] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: redline sniper wrote: What's the the total damage on a HMG... 70016=11'200, something like that? You need to factor a few more parameters here...time, hit%. It aint that simple. I don't see what you're getting at. You want me to factor in the chance of a hit? The Swarm Launcher does all the work for you, there's only fire interval that can be calculated and reload time, but that doesn't change the damage you've dealt. Elaborate. no clue if 700 bullets is right, or 16 damage, but anyway. lets say the HMG puts out 2000 bps, so i have to spend about 20 seconds in the open(plus 4 seconds for reloading behind cover), time in which my target can see me and shoot back at me, to put this total damage of 70016 into my target, IN CASE every bullets hits, which might not be to tuff considering the size of vehicles. A FG hits immeditaly, its full damage or non, even if just the tail of its target sticks out behind a rock. I can reload and charge behind cover aswell, but it takes siginfiantly longer, compared to HMG. But for 1 FG shot i just need to spend 1 second in the open. The swarm, considering its reload time and lock on time(which would be the charge time of the FG), takes even more time to deal its total damage. I would say i have to spend more time in the open to lock on my target than to get of my FG shot. Its not a given to say all missiles will hit, especially when the target gets a few seconds to dodge 'em. When just its tail sticks out behind a rock i can not hit all my missiles, maybe not even a single one. The longer i need to deal my total damage, the more time my target gets to find cover, eliminate me or just repair itself. Flux 'nades deal more than 1000 damage to the shiel, easy to hit, easy to resupply, still its not comparable to Swarms. See now, how total damge does not tell the whole story?
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.22 00:09:00 - [21] - Quote redline sniper wrote: no clue if 700 bullets is right, or 16 damage, but anyway. lets say the HMG puts out 2000 bps, so i have to spend about 20 seconds in the open(plus 4 seconds for reloading behind cover), time in which my target can see me and shoot back at me, to put this total damage of 700*16 into my target, IN CASE every bullets hits, which might not be to tuff considering the size of vehicles. A FG hits immeditaly, its full damage or non, even if just the tail of its target sticks out behind a rock. I can reload and charge behind cover aswell, but it takes siginfiantly longer, compared to HMG. But for 1 FG shot i just need to spend 1 second in the open. The swarm, considering its reload time and lock on time(which would be the charge time of the FG), takes even more time to deal its total damage. I would say i have to spend more time in the open to lock on my target than to get of my FG shot. Its not a given to say all missiles will hit, especially when the target gets a few seconds to dodge 'em. When just its tail sticks out behind a rock i can not hit all my missiles, maybe not even a single one. The longer i need to deal my total damage, the more time my target gets to find cover, eliminate me or just repair itself. Flux 'nades deal more than 1000 damage to the shiel, easy to hit, easy to resupply, still its not comparable to Swarms. See now, how total damge does not tell the whole story? Alright I see now. What I did was put up the comparison of Swarms as the levels progress and just showing how they progressively get more worthwhile over the levels. These are also numbers that you could use to see how they stack against a forge by the numbers, attacking a hypothetical still object. Also, the other factors are highly variable and can't be judged through calculation rather experience. Is it better to deal all the damage at once or over a short course of time? It's dependent on the player. On another note, HMGs have damage drop off, dispersion, and heat build up unlike swarms and forges, so the numbers of an HMG don't stand nicely to be compared to forges and swarms.
Synner Zerg SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 3	Posted - 2013.02.22 14:44:00 - [22] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Synner Zerg wrote: Correct Math Thank you, I will update mine now. I've just heard many different sides. I used to think that skills operated similarly but apparently I was wrong about that as well, so I assumed that everything was additive after that. So why doesn't skill levels of the same skill work like that? Currently we operate on 2%+2%+2%+2%+2%=10% Why not (((((Damagex1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)? 300x1.1=330 (((((300x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)=331.22 The skills are inconsistent see? Why do they sum the same skill and not compound it like the others? I will respectfully disagree. I think it is consistent in the sense that both skills bonuses and module bonuses are all compounded. The only difference is that a "skill bonus" is determined as combination of (skill modifier * skill level). Similarly a "module bonus" is determined as a combination of (module modifier * stacking penalty). So, if you think of skill level as "stacking bonus" it really becomes the same, where investment in skills grants a stacking bonus, but a shortcut of stacking multiple modules incurs a stacking penalty : Skill multiplier = 1 + (modifier * stack bonus) Module multiplier = 1 + (modifier * stack penalty) And everything is compounded = Skill multiplier * Module multiplier But honestly, as to the question why? I've got no idea... it's been like that in EvE for a decade. Maybe the answer is: 42
CPL Bloodstone SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 13	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:37:00 - [23] - Quote ive never had a lav survive 1 shot from my FG and ive killed hundreds... Not sure on saying they survive unless your talking about splash damage vs direct damage.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:29:00 - [24] - Quote CPL Bloodstone wrote: ive never had a lav survive 1 shot from my FG and ive killed hundreds... Not sure on saying they survive unless your talking about splash damage vs direct damage. You've never shot a real LAV then.
Rusty Shallows Creative Killers 11	Posted - 2013.02.23 08:12:00 - [25] - Quote CPL Bloodstone wrote: ive never had a lav survive 1 shot from my FG and ive killed hundreds... Not sure on saying they survive unless your talking about splash damage vs direct damage. I've had it happen a couple of times. The drivers were never serious about jumping out either so I'm guessing they spent isk on their rides.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 411	Posted - 2013.02.23 17:57:00 - [26] - Quote redline sniper wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: redline sniper wrote: What's the the total damage on a HMG... 70016=11'200, something like that? You need to factor a few more parameters here...time, hit%. It aint that simple. I don't see what you're getting at. You want me to factor in the chance of a hit? The Swarm Launcher does all the work for you, there's only fire interval that can be calculated and reload time, but that doesn't change the damage you've dealt. Elaborate. no clue if 700 bullets is right, or 16 damage, but anyway. lets say the HMG puts out 2000 bps, so i have to spend about 20 seconds in the open(plus 4 seconds for reloading behind cover), time in which my target can see me and shoot back at me, to put this total damage of 70016 into my target, IN CASE every bullets hits, which might not be to tuff considering the size of vehicles. Why are you bringing the HMG into an AV discussion? The HMG will only ever have 38% damage efficiency on any vehicle (possibly less for tanks and DS, I dunno), so it doesn't actually function as an AV weapon in any capacity. It also relies on pure RoF and medium range engagements to pull off significant damage while both the FG and SL are on-hit damage weapons that, if you're good enough, really ought to be hitting every time.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.23 22:56:00 - [27] - Quote redline sniper wrote: Cross Atu wrote: There's also the "fire and forget" aspect of the swarm, you can pop off a volley at a vehicle quick swap to your sidearm and kill incoming infantry and back to the swarms to continue the assault (I've done this as recently as tonight to great effect). xd, because you can not take cover and switch to your secondary weapon right after having shot your FG, right? This 'fire and forget' applies to every weapon, just the swarm does not get immediate response, its target is given a few seconds to dogdge it, keep shooting, repair itself of the last hit or just look for the jet trail to identify the possition of the the SL user. I think you can even shoot down the missiles. Incorrect, all weapons do not have this effect equally. The Laser for example does not have it at all. Keeping things in the Forge vs Swarm context however, swarms track their target with no further input from the user meaning you release the trigger and are done. The lock means that you can start paying attention to lining up your shot/taking cover where as with the forge the impact of the shot is more or less instant meaning you have to keep your focus and your aim directly on the target rather than incoming infantry support. Further the light weapon slot is top of the selection wheel making it an easier/faster swap than the heavy which is directly across from the sidearm (this won't matter so much for a KBM user but for anyone else those seconds are relevant). Beyond all of that your movement speed with a charged Forge is much slower than with a swarm, making the return to cover/avoidance of incoming support fire all the more difficult. As far as the 'contrails' are concerned, fire then move (while locking on) and fire again from another position. Something that one should be doing when using swarms. forge, or sniper. The swarms however have the benifit for being able to somewhat mislead the opposition because you can be locking your second shot while on the move something that the sniper and forge cannot do with any great effect (forge in large part because you can't move at a rate notable enough to make your change in position very relevant/effective). 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:02:00 - [28] - Quote Regarding the dps discussion: When calculating damage the type of target needs to be considered as well as weapons do differing amounts of damage based on Armor vs Shields, and for that matter based on location of the hit as well (the "head shot" bonus is not universal in that differing weapons gain different degrees of bonus for hitting in 'soft spots'). I don't have those numbers for Swarm vs Forge but they certainly do impact the actual dps output of both weapons. Cheers, Cross
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:19:00 - [29] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Regarding the dps discussion: When calculating damage the type of target needs to be considered as well as weapons do differing amounts of damage based on Armor vs Shields, and for that matter based on location of the hit as well (the "head shot" bonus is not universal in that differing weapons gain different degrees of bonus for hitting in 'soft spots'). I don't have those numbers for Swarm vs Forge but they certainly do impact the actual dps output of both weapons. Cheers, Cross I would like to do so, but I'd need figures and accurate stats looks at CCP
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.24 01:58:00 - [30] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Regarding the dps discussion: When calculating damage the type of target needs to be considered as well as weapons do differing amounts of damage based on Armor vs Shields, and for that matter based on location of the hit as well (the "head shot" bonus is not universal in that differing weapons gain different degrees of bonus for hitting in 'soft spots'). I don't have those numbers for Swarm vs Forge but they certainly do impact the actual dps output of both weapons. Cheers, Cross I would like to do so, but I'd need figures and accurate stats looks at CCP I just did some testing, the efficiency rating (i.e. % damage mod) for swarms is as follows) First number is standard hit, second number is hitting soft spot. Swarms vs shields 70% 94% Swarms vs armor 130% 174% (note, due to the battlefield conditions under which I was testing this I only saw for a split second and thus may have gotten wrong) Forge vs Shields 100% 202% Forge vs Armor have yet to confirm these numbers Cheers, Cross ps ~ all numbers are base numbers, meaning vs a tank without any resists fit/active.

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