DUST Search - Swarm Launcher vs. Forge Gun

redline sniper wrote:

no clue if 700 bullets is right, or 16 damage, but anyway.

lets say the HMG puts out 2000 bps, so i have to spend about 20 seconds in the open(plus 4 seconds for reloading behind cover), time in which my target can see me and shoot back at me, to put this total damage of 700*16 into my target, IN CASE every bullets hits, which might not be to tuff considering the size of vehicles.

A FG hits immeditaly, its full damage or non, even if just the tail of its target sticks out behind a rock. I can reload and charge behind cover aswell, but it takes siginfiantly longer, compared to HMG. But for 1 FG shot i just need to spend 1 second in the open.

The swarm, considering its reload time and lock on time(which would be the charge time of the FG), takes even more time to deal its total damage. I would say i have to spend more time in the open to lock on my target than to get of my FG shot.
Its not a given to say all missiles will hit, especially when the target gets a few seconds to dodge 'em. When just its tail sticks out behind a rock i can not hit all my missiles, maybe not even a single one. The longer i need to deal my total damage, the more time my target gets to find cover, eliminate me or just repair itself.

Flux 'nades deal more than 1000 damage to the shiel, easy to hit, easy to resupply, still its not comparable to Swarms.

See now, how total damge does not tell the whole story?


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Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 04:09:00 - [1] - Quote Swarm Launcher Mathematics Across the board for all Swarm Variants, the damage is 300 per missile. However, let's factor in skills and other components to meta levels of the swarm launcher. If you were to max out Weaponry and Swarm Launcher proficiency... 300x1.1x1.15=379.5. So with maximum damage skills, you'll be doing 379.5 damage per missile. Missiles Per shot: Standard=4 Advanced=5 Prototype=6 So the damage per shot with just maximum skills is... Standard= 379.5 x 4 = 1518 Advanced=379.5 x 5 = 1897.5 Prototype=379.5 x 6 = 2277 Let's go further... Every swarm launcher can carry a maximum of 6 shots. So, the total damage you can do without resupplying nor damage mods is the damage per shot multiplied by 6. Standard Total Damage: 9,108 Advanced Total Damage: 11,385 Prototype Total Damage: 13,662 But what about damage Mods? For the sake of simplicity, let's just say you're running one Complex Damage Module (+10%) with your Swarm Launcher. So your damage with skills and a damage mod would be: 300x1.1x1.15x1.1=417.45 Standard Level: 417.45x4=1669.8 Advanced Level: 417.45x5=2087.25 Prototype Level: 417.45x6=2504.7 Now Let's factor in the total number of shots you can take: (6) Total Standard Damage: 1669.8x6= 10,018.8 Total Advanced Damage: 2087.25x6= 12,523.5 Total Prototype Damage: 2504.7x6= 15,028.2 There you have it, the damage levels of Swarm Launchers, skills, meta level, and a Complex Damage Module included. -Bojo's School of the Trades Post Note: Thank you Synner Zeg, I had calculated these numbers on an incorrect skill base system but was corrected and this information should now be accurate.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 18:54:00 - [2] - Quote Alderstaz wrote: Are you sure about those numbers? I don't have it handy, but from how other items i've used I'm pretty sure its: 300 x 1.25 x 1.1 for 412.5 per missile 1650 for 4 2062.5 for 5 2475 for 6 I guess I'll check later. Totally forgot about damage mods to get past HAV auto repair. Still a losing proposition for Swarmer, house always wins type deal with clone/Isk loss due to tank just fighting you, while you fight every red with your sidearm... I used to think that it worked completely by multiplication, but what they actually do is add all the percentages up (I'm pretty sure). So Weaponry Level 5= +10% Proficiency Level 5= +15% Complex Damage Mod= +10% Sum Damage Multiplier=+35% It works like this to make sure that damage doesn't get exponentially bigger with skills and mods, more linear. If we were to operate on a system like that, damage dealt from skills alone would look like this... 300x1.02^5x1.03^5=383.979 Separating the skills and multiplying adds more damage than just summing the bonuses and multiplying. However the damage multiplier on stat fittings doesn't increase with skills so I may have to take another look into this.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 22:39:00 - [3] - Quote Synner Zerg wrote: Correct Math Thank you, I will update mine now. I've just heard many different sides. I used to think that skills operated similarly but apparently I was wrong about that as well, so I assumed that everything was additive after that. So why doesn't skill levels of the same skill work like that? Currently we operate on 2%+2%+2%+2%+2%=10% Why not (((((Damagex1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)? 300x1.1=330 (((((300x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)x1.02)=331.22 The skills are inconsistent see? Why do they sum the same skill and not compound it like the others?
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.21 23:32:00 - [4] - Quote redline sniper wrote: What's the the total damage on a HMG... 700*16=11'200, something like that? You need to factor a few more parameters here...time, hit%. It aint that simple. I don't see what you're getting at. You want me to factor in the chance of a hit? The Swarm Launcher does all the work for you, there's only fire interval that can be calculated and reload time, but that doesn't change the damage you've dealt. Elaborate.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.22 00:09:00 - [5] - Quote redline sniper wrote: no clue if 700 bullets is right, or 16 damage, but anyway. lets say the HMG puts out 2000 bps, so i have to spend about 20 seconds in the open(plus 4 seconds for reloading behind cover), time in which my target can see me and shoot back at me, to put this total damage of 700*16 into my target, IN CASE every bullets hits, which might not be to tuff considering the size of vehicles. A FG hits immeditaly, its full damage or non, even if just the tail of its target sticks out behind a rock. I can reload and charge behind cover aswell, but it takes siginfiantly longer, compared to HMG. But for 1 FG shot i just need to spend 1 second in the open. The swarm, considering its reload time and lock on time(which would be the charge time of the FG), takes even more time to deal its total damage. I would say i have to spend more time in the open to lock on my target than to get of my FG shot. Its not a given to say all missiles will hit, especially when the target gets a few seconds to dodge 'em. When just its tail sticks out behind a rock i can not hit all my missiles, maybe not even a single one. The longer i need to deal my total damage, the more time my target gets to find cover, eliminate me or just repair itself. Flux 'nades deal more than 1000 damage to the shiel, easy to hit, easy to resupply, still its not comparable to Swarms. See now, how total damge does not tell the whole story? Alright I see now. What I did was put up the comparison of Swarms as the levels progress and just showing how they progressively get more worthwhile over the levels. These are also numbers that you could use to see how they stack against a forge by the numbers, attacking a hypothetical still object. Also, the other factors are highly variable and can't be judged through calculation rather experience. Is it better to deal all the damage at once or over a short course of time? It's dependent on the player. On another note, HMGs have damage drop off, dispersion, and heat build up unlike swarms and forges, so the numbers of an HMG don't stand nicely to be compared to forges and swarms.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:29:00 - [6] - Quote CPL Bloodstone wrote: ive never had a lav survive 1 shot from my FG and ive killed hundreds... Not sure on saying they survive unless your talking about splash damage vs direct damage. You've never shot a real LAV then.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.23 23:19:00 - [7] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Regarding the dps discussion: When calculating damage the type of target needs to be considered as well as weapons do differing amounts of damage based on Armor vs Shields, and for that matter based on location of the hit as well (the "head shot" bonus is not universal in that differing weapons gain different degrees of bonus for hitting in 'soft spots'). I don't have those numbers for Swarm vs Forge but they certainly do impact the actual dps output of both weapons. Cheers, Cross I would like to do so, but I'd need figures and accurate stats looks at CCP
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.24 03:03:00 - [8] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: 70% 94% Swarms vs armor 130% 174% (note, due to the battlefield conditions under which I was testing this I only saw for a split second and thus may have gotten wrong) Forge vs Shields 100% 202% Forge vs Armor have yet to confirm these numbers Cheers, Cross ps ~ all numbers are base numbers, meaning vs a tank without any resists fit/active. Can you confirm that these were in consideration of skill bonuses as well?
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 427	Posted - 2013.02.25 02:22:00 - [9] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The efficiency numbers are (as I understand it) a final modifier, as such they remain unchanged regardless of what skill levels are in play (the skill levels effect the numeric value of the figure that efficiency modifies, not the efficiency modifier itself). Just in case these modifiers function differently than I believe however, my Weaponry was at L5 while my Prof (for both weapons) was at L0. All testing done the same night with the same skills. Cheers, Cross Oh Dear, sorry I had a blond moment. I don't know how, but I'm sorry I'll be updating and recalculating shortly.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 941	Posted - 2013.04.22 20:50:00 - [10] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Alderstaz wrote: Are you sure about those numbers? I don't have it handy, but from how other items i've used I'm pretty sure its: 300 x 1.25 x 1.1 for 412.5 per missile 1650 for 4 2062.5 for 5 2475 for 6 I guess I'll check later. Totally forgot about damage mods to get past HAV auto repair. Still a losing proposition for Swarmer, house always wins type deal with clone/Isk loss due to tank just fighting you, while you fight every red with your sidearm... I used to think that it worked completely by multiplication, but what they actually do is add all the percentages up (I'm pretty sure). So Weaponry Level 5= +10% Proficiency Level 5= +15% Complex Damage Mod= +10% Sum Damage Multiplier=+35% It works like this to make sure that damage doesn't get exponentially bigger with skills and mods, more linear. If we were to operate on a system like that, damage dealt from skills alone would look like this... 300x1.02^5x1.03^5=383.979 Separating the skills and multiplying adds more damage than just summing the bonuses and multiplying. However the damage multiplier on stat fittings doesn't increase with skills so I may have to take another look into this. Incorrect, as far as i know, you take weaponry 10%, multiply the new value by the weaponry proficiency 15%?, then multiply that new value by the damage mods. So around...38% ish. Yeah that was clarified earlier, this is old stuff.