DUST Search - [Feedback] Why Skirmish is Bad (objective spawning)

Berserker007 wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

As many times as I've heard this discussed over and over and over again as a huge flaw by so many different players in game that I've lost count, I only just realized I've never seen anything about it posted here in the feedback section. So here you go.

The Reason Skirmish is Bad: Spawning on Objectives

This seemingly harmless mechanic removes 90% of all tactical play from the game. If the enemies attack you at one objective in a big rush, it does no good to counter attack their objective with some of your forces, because you know that the enemies who die in the rush will simply spawn back at the objective you are counter attacking by the time you get there.

It leaves us with a game mode where the entire strategy is to simply blob rush from objective to objective, and respawn at contested objectives.

The large majority of all deaths my squad sees when attacking an objective come from guys magically appearing and gunning you down while hacking. It's completely ludicrous.

Make the game more strategic, remove the objective spawning and add more CRUs.

EDIT: here's a slightly different way of stating the problem that I wrote in another thread (the one that made me realize this needed to be posted here):

Baal Roo wrote:

Right now, the best strategy in skirmish is ALWAYS to RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH, because the faster you die the faster you respawn to your objectives and can take care of any enemy attackers. It's why we see so many redline matches. All of the experienced players understand this mechanic and take advantage of it to redline one side or the other within the first 45 seconds of most matches, and why the remaining matches end on clones before the MCCs get to half armor.

Both teams rush each other, attacking with a blob at the enemy held objectives and defending their own with respawns, and the first team to win the initial fights at the objectives wins the match 90% of the time.

It's dull, cheap, and repetitive.

Ill admit i didnt read through the entire thread, but i may solo in this, but this is a horrible idea. Simply b/c of these one reason:

U can destroy CRUs

So yeah, make more crus, simply destroy them then each team is stuck spawning back at the mcc. Easy way to stop magic deaths. Its called squad cover & communication

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.21 22:04:00 - [31] - Quote xXl DeathDealer lXx wrote: I think that a good fix to this is to remove having to manually hack something. Make it so that you automatically hack when within a few yards of an objective when no enemies are there. This would solve everyone's problems. You can stay alert so you don't get spawned on and mowed down and protect yourself from objective campers especially snipers. Everyone wins. I don't like the idea of autohack, I like the risk being involved with hacking
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:52:00 - [32] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: xXl DeathDealer lXx wrote: I think that a good fix to this is to remove having to manually hack something. Make it so that you automatically hack when within a few yards of an objective when no enemies are there. This would solve everyone's problems. You can stay alert so you don't get spawned on and mowed down and protect yourself from objective campers especially snipers. Everyone wins. I don't like the idea of autohack, I like the risk being involved with hacking Agreed. Actually hacking the objective means you need to either have a squad with you, or put your own ass on the line... which is a fun premise for hacking. The issue is with being able to spawn DIRECTLY onto the objectives that are supposed to be the basis of the tactical play, not with how the hacking itself works. Spawning directly onto objectives is like playing chess with all queens.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3068	Posted - 2013.02.27 07:37:00 - [33] - Quote Aside from being better for the game, this would make more sense then magically appearing on the objectives when there aren't CRUs or drop uplinks.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3087	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:21:00 - [34] - Quote Anyone else want?
Thrillhouse Van Houten Expert Intervention Caldari State 14	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:57:00 - [35] - Quote Absolutely. I have little experience in FPS games and so I've never played anything with spawns or objectives like a Skirmish map in Dust. The first thing I said to myself when I played one was "why can you spawn at the objectives?" It makes no sense to me. Since skirmish is clearly the "strategy" mode in our current setup, where is the strategy? The team that stays together, slays together. You roll in a mas of humanity from objective to objective until you either redline the enemy or win from clone kills. Some strategy.
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 24	Posted - 2013.03.03 02:34:00 - [36] - Quote Skirmish is fine, it's how your team plays it. 5 letter maps, spawn, rush to the center three objs, ignore outer letters, crus, turrets, supply depots. fight and stay only on those inner 3 three letters. 3 letter maps, go to the second furthest letter and camp it, ignore all hackables on the way, and only go back to closests letter if your team needs backup. Skirmish is a defensive heavy game, so if your worried every letter and get aggresive, you will just be chasing the enimes tail, hacking what they hack as they are hacking yours. I cant remember the map name, but the one with the pipes its a 5 letter, stay nearer to B, move to A or C when they are under attack.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 214	Posted - 2013.03.03 03:08:00 - [37] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: As many times as I've heard this discussed over and over and over again as a huge flaw by so many different players in game that I've lost count, I only just realized I've never seen anything about it posted here in the feedback section. So here you go. The Reason Skirmish is Bad: Spawning on Objectives This seemingly harmless mechanic removes 90% of all tactical play from the game. If the enemies attack you at one objective in a big rush, it does no good to counter attack their objective with some of your forces, because you know that the enemies who die in the rush will simply spawn back at the objective you are counter attacking by the time you get there. It leaves us with a game mode where the entire strategy is to simply blob rush from objective to objective, and respawn at contested objectives. The large majority of all deaths my squad sees when attacking an objective come from guys magically appearing and gunning you down while hacking. It's completely ludicrous. Make the game more strategic, remove the objective spawning and add more CRUs. EDIT: here's a slightly different way of stating the problem that I wrote in another thread (the one that made me realize this needed to be posted here): Baal Roo wrote: Right now, the best strategy in skirmish is ALWAYS to RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH, because the faster you die the faster you respawn to your objectives and can take care of any enemy attackers. It's why we see so many redline matches. All of the experienced players understand this mechanic and take advantage of it to redline one side or the other within the first 45 seconds of most matches, and why the remaining matches end on clones before the MCCs get to half armor. Both teams rush each other, attacking with a blob at the enemy held objectives and defending their own with respawns, and the first team to win the initial fights at the objectives wins the match 90% of the time. It's dull, cheap, and repetitive. Ill admit i didnt read through the entire thread, but i may solo in this, but this is a horrible idea. Simply b/c of these one reason: U can destroy CRUs So yeah, make more crus, simply destroy them then each team is stuck spawning back at the mcc. Easy way to stop magic deaths. Its called squad cover & communication
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 385	Posted - 2013.03.03 10:04:00 - [38] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: As many times as I've heard this discussed over and over and over again as a huge flaw by so many different players in game that I've lost count, I only just realized I've never seen anything about it posted here in the feedback section. So here you go. The Reason Skirmish is Bad: Spawning on Objectives This seemingly harmless mechanic removes 90% of all tactical play from the game. If the enemies attack you at one objective in a big rush, it does no good to counter attack their objective with some of your forces, because you know that the enemies who die in the rush will simply spawn back at the objective you are counter attacking by the time you get there. It leaves us with a game mode where the entire strategy is to simply blob rush from objective to objective, and respawn at contested objectives. The large majority of all deaths my squad sees when attacking an objective come from guys magically appearing and gunning you down while hacking. It's completely ludicrous. Make the game more strategic, remove the objective spawning and add more CRUs. EDIT: here's a slightly different way of stating the problem that I wrote in another thread (the one that made me realize this needed to be posted here): Baal Roo wrote: Right now, the best strategy in skirmish is ALWAYS to RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH, because the faster you die the faster you respawn to your objectives and can take care of any enemy attackers. It's why we see so many redline matches. All of the experienced players understand this mechanic and take advantage of it to redline one side or the other within the first 45 seconds of most matches, and why the remaining matches end on clones before the MCCs get to half armor. Both teams rush each other, attacking with a blob at the enemy held objectives and defending their own with respawns, and the first team to win the initial fights at the objectives wins the match 90% of the time. It's dull, cheap, and repetitive. Ill admit i didnt read through the entire thread, but i may solo in this, but this is a horrible idea. Simply b/c of these one reason: U can destroy CRUs So yeah, make more crus, simply destroy them then each team is stuck spawning back at the mcc. Easy way to stop magic deaths. Its called squad cover & communication You can make the CRUs indestructible.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3093	Posted - 2013.03.03 10:34:00 - [39] - Quote Even if CRUs are destructible, eventually commanders will have to the power to deploy more on the battlefield. This idea involves adding more CRUs to the battlefield, destroying all CRUs in their current quantity is hard enough, with even more CRUs it would be close to impossible. To prevent MCC spawn camping, THE MCCs SHOULD ROTATE AROUND THE MAP. This means the drop zone will always be different, and make the battle more dynamic s a result.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 182	Posted - 2013.03.03 10:35:00 - [40] - Quote I could support CCP and suggest reasons as to why letters should be able to be spawned on, but the fact is, as someone kindly pointed out above, more immersion and strategy could potentially be birthed from a removal of this ability to spawn on objectives. And people will finally spawn in my dropship. It does get lonely, soaring the skies with only swarms for company.

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 848	Posted - 2013.03.03 21:25:00 - [41] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Even if CRUs are destructible, eventually commanders will have to the power to deploy more on the battlefield. This idea involves adding more CRUs to the battlefield, destroying all CRUs in their current quantity is hard enough, with even more CRUs it would be close to impossible. To prevent MCC spawn camping, THE MCCs SHOULD ROTATE AROUND THE MAP. This means the drop zone will always be different, and make the battle more dynamic s a result. alternatively, there could be two different types of CRUs. The current ones that are destructible installations that will eventually be called in as assets, and a different sort that work like the objective (indestructible and pre-placed on the maps). In my own personal vision, each objective would have an accompanying "built in" CRU that was NEAR the objective, but not directly on top of it. Some maps currently have this already for some objectives. Yes, it seems like a minor change, but the strategic implications would add quite a bit to the game, making the choice of "do we hack the objective or the CRU first" (and defenders would have to make similar choices) much more important.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 423	Posted - 2013.03.03 23:51:00 - [42] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: but the strategic implications would add quite a bit to the game, making the choice of "do we hack the objective or the CRU first" (and defenders would have to make similar choices) much more important. It would also add the option to destroy the CRU, but at the cost of your troops not being able to spawn near the objective without relying on uplinks. I would personally like to see some sort of transport vessel you could get in at the MCC that would drop you off at the objectives. Like a ship that drops you off where you need to go. I wonder if they'll ever put a "dropping ship" in the game to give us options for advanced tactics?
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 24	Posted - 2013.03.05 04:05:00 - [43] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Even if CRUs are destructible, eventually commanders will have to the power to deploy more on the battlefield. This idea involves adding more CRUs to the battlefield, destroying all CRUs in their current quantity is hard enough, with even more CRUs it would be close to impossible. To prevent MCC spawn camping, THE MCCs SHOULD ROTATE AROUND THE MAP. This means the drop zone will always be different, and make the battle more dynamic s a result. alternatively, there could be two different types of CRUs. The current ones that are destructible installations that will eventually be called in as assets, and a different sort that work like the objective (indestructible and pre-placed on the maps). In my own personal vision, each objective would have an accompanying "built in" CRU that was NEAR the objective, but not directly on top of it. Some maps currently have this already for some objectives. Yes, it seems like a minor change, but the strategic implications would add quite a bit to the game, making the choice of "do we hack the objective or the CRU first" (and defenders would have to make similar choices) much more important. like your idea. Also, always hack the CRU first, this gives you instant team spawn location, but hacking the letter you have to wait for the virus to upload.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3104	Posted - 2013.03.05 10:40:00 - [44] - Quote http://dustmercs.blogspot.com/2013/03/perfecting-skirmish.html idea featured here.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3180	Posted - 2013.03.16 11:26:00 - [45] - Quote The ability to spawn on objectives gives an uneeded extra bonus to the team that captured it. It helps makes Skirmish battles one-sided, predictable, and ultimately and boring.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 444	Posted - 2013.03.24 11:25:00 - [46] - Quote This would be a huge improvement to the current Skirmish mode. While I still want actual attacker vs defender modes, this would at least make Skirmish better.
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 267	Posted - 2013.03.24 11:54:00 - [47] - Quote Wow, what a mishmash of ideas all because of hating on the Skirmish. It makes me wonder how many of you mostly run Ambush? I run with a few mates in various Squads and depending on several things we can control a map without Blob Rushing. Have a plan, have some contingency plans and be able to adapt. It is better if we could always get in the start of a game but we have pulled wins from lost causes more than once. This seems like yet another idea to make DUST into something it isn't and/or to control how the Blues play the game. They are Not in your Squad. They are going to play the way They Want. Some will do well, others will not come close. Same as you Mercs. The Blob Rushing was mentioned in a recent YouTube video about how DUST battles work. It was cute but it is not science and is an isolated incident being used to misstate how all games in Skirmish play out. I find it will do that Sometimes but more often than not it is not the default case. The only constant is that different Squads and Random Blues will all have different skill sets and play styles. Skirmish is fine. Use your Squad. Use mics. It takes all kinds of Mercs to fill up the DUST.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 985	Posted - 2013.03.24 18:48:00 - [48] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Wow, what a mishmash of ideas all because of hating on the Skirmish. It makes me wonder how many of you mostly run Ambush? I run with a few mates in various Squads and depending on several things we can control a map without Blob Rushing. Have a plan, have some contingency plans and be able to adapt. It is better if we could always get in the start of a game but we have pulled wins from lost causes more than once. This seems like yet another idea to make DUST into something it isn't and/or to control how the Blues play the game. They are Not in your Squad. They are going to play the way They Want. Some will do well, others will not come close. Same as you Mercs. The Blob Rushing was mentioned in a recent YouTube video about how DUST battles work. It was cute but it is not science and is an isolated incident being used to misstate how all games in Skirmish play out. I find it will do that Sometimes but more often than not it is not the default case. The only constant is that different Squads and Random Blues will all have different skill sets and play styles. Skirmish is fine. Use your Squad. Use mics. It takes all kinds of Mercs to fill up the DUST. I've played plenty of skirmish, anymore almost no one worth a **** plays it though. Lately it's pretty difficult to lose a skirmish round with a squad, mostly because of the problem being discussed in this thread. Most people who have been playing long enough to get good at the game see skirmish for the broken game mode that it is. It has nothing to do with how others are playing the game mode, we're discussing the flaw in the game mode that removes 90% of the possible strategy. Skirmish is currently just Ambush that moves from objective to objective because of this goofy spawning system.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3226	Posted - 2013.03.24 20:56:00 - [49] - Quote Holding an objective is its own reward since it helps your team win the battle, having the ability to spawn on it is an unnecessary bonus that makes defending far too easy. Removing objective spawning would make defending them harder since defenders will have to actually take time to travel to the objective, and it would make it easier for objectives to switch hands, leading for more dynamic battles instead of boring battles where one team is being red-lined. Remove objective spawning and add more CRUs.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 418	Posted - 2013.03.24 22:07:00 - [50] - Quote Remove objective spawning, add more CRU's in the right palces, and make CRU's less of a liability to possess by adding a little bit of spawn protection and by making them harder to flip.

Mithridates VI The Southern Legion 454	Posted - 2013.03.24 22:12:00 - [51] - Quote Spawning on the objectives feels similar to a capture the flag match allowing me to spawn on the flag carrier.
Cat Merc Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 212	Posted - 2013.03.24 22:13:00 - [52] - Quote Orbital Drops. They will drop from the sky to the cap point making a loud noise warning you.
Drykhan Freez DUST University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2013.03.25 17:39:00 - [53] - Quote What if... - Objective spawning was eliminated, - CRUs were removed, - Spawns were only drops from the MCC that could be targeted to land at player placed drop uplinks? To me that would seem to satisfy the immersion complaints (combatants are dropped from the MCC to an uplink instead of just appearing), as well as the strategic concerns (the only spawn points are the ones your teammates dropped and your opponents did not find).
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 24	Posted - 2013.03.25 17:49:00 - [54] - Quote I don't see a problem with spawning on an objective. I just feel it makes the armies seem bigger then they are. I mean, killing two guys and taking the base may be more tactically effective, but fighting 2 guys then 2 more guys makes me feel more like I am attacking an armed compound. I look at it as a easy way to pretend there is more then just 16 people to shoot at.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3252	Posted - 2013.03.27 03:41:00 - [55] - Quote Objective spawning is bad, and it should feel bad.
NextDark Knight Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 3	Posted - 2013.03.27 04:23:00 - [56] - Quote I don't think there is enough people in each game to get rid of objective spawning just yet. Maybe when the player count in game increases.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 850	Posted - 2013.03.27 05:06:00 - [57] - Quote Baal, KAGEHOSHI, I'm baffled. Usually I heartily support what I hear from both of you and even when we disagree I feel you make solid well reasoned points, on the first part of this thread however I've been pretty much shaking my head wondering if I'm reading an elaborate troll. These two quotes however turn the tide back toward the quality and clarity I've gown accustomed to from both of you. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: To prevent MCC spawn camping, THE MCCs SHOULD ROTATE AROUND THE MAP. This means the drop zone will always be different, and make the battle more dynamic s a result. Baal Roo wrote: In my own personal vision, each objective would have an accompanying "built in" CRU that was NEAR the objective, but not directly on top of it. Some maps currently have this already for some objectives. Yes, it seems like a minor change, but the strategic implications would add quite a bit to the game, making the choice of "do we hack the objective or the CRU first" (and defenders would have to make similar choices) much more important. I can happily support those two changes to the current system and Baal if your vision were in place I think that would indeed add nuance to Skirmish that would be a breath of fresh air. Having said that I do feel the need to post a couple of counter points to other ideas raised in this thread, if any of the ideas I'm responding to are now "outdated" in favor of the above quoted suggestions feel free to ignore my responses on those counts and I'll proceed in this thread under the assumption that they're ideas which we've moved beyond during the course of discussion and are no longer on the table. More CRUs - This in itself is a fine idea, but is in no way a possible substitue for the current NC spawn points. Our standard CRUs can be popped by HAV fire (or even upgraded LAV/Forge fire) much more rapidly that seems to have been acknowledged. I've been in matches as recently as tonight where a single Proto Swarm user took out all the CRUs and Depots on the map from behind his own teams lines of defense and still had time/ammo to take out several LAVs as well. If one guy with swarms can do that even doubling or tripling the total CRUs pre map won't allow them to survive a single squad who's decided to take them out. This leads to far less tactical game play as one squad (or less) can unilaterally redefine the battlefield and increase the frequency of spawn camps. Red lines are boaring and are fed by having few/bottlenecked spawing locations, we need less of it not more. Sky Spawn - Another case of an idea that is fine and even good as an addition to the game but as a substitution becomes terrible. Talk about removing tactical game play make every spawn both more obvious to opposing forces and more vulnerable to being DOA. Again spawn camping reduces fun and should be minimized not supported by map mechanics, which forcing mercs into a predictable, obvious and exposed spawning method most certainly does. Uplinks - These are heavily underused, and granted the "hidden in the terrain" bug is a problem but they honestly don't need a buff or more of a reason for use. In fact making them more tactically useful pushes the limits of being broken. I can already get 4 uplinks out during the opening of a match on my own having set up a spawn network on/near ever NC. With a squad of 4 that's 16 links and that's while only having level 1 in the uplinks skill. When I had proto uplinks before the wipe I could nearly hit that squad mark by myself and I'm usually able to earn several hundred WPs off the uplinks alone (that becomes around a thousand in an ambush oms which the total removal of static/indestructible spawns would push skirmish towards). Beyond that having them be a "mainstay" of general spawning as opposed to tactical spawning runs into the same sorts of problems that CRUs face as outlined above, except that you don't even need AV to take them out. Hacking - Solo Don't undersell the value of character skills. During closed beta I ran a solo infiltrator hack fit with full skill support. I used only the SMG as a weapon and was still able to 'run the table' on many pub matches. I did not need to kill opposing forces, and I rarely ever got popped by either hidden forces or spawners, such a role is not only viable but highly effective (in pubs anyway, Corp/FW is another beast). Squad - The squad I run with tends to have one guy start the hack and to others jump on at 50%. This not only means max WP gains from it but also that we're rarely pulled off the hack by incoming hostile squads, much less piecemeal spawn ins. Summation - I agree with much of the principle of this thread but any alterations must be done very carefully with an eye to maintaining many dynamic spawn locations that are not purely player dependent as in the present game it is already far to easy to trap and spawn camp a team removing all tactical play from the game. I highly support the quoted text above but would add current CRUs should at least stay at present levels (tho more would be fine) even with those changes. Cheers, Cross
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3471	Posted - 2013.04.17 08:12:00 - [58] - Quote Still bad
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2546	Posted - 2013.04.17 12:25:00 - [59] - Quote Still disagree that it's bad. If you have your whole team spawning at a single objective, getting farmed for kills because the enemy team has several people watching the backs of the player(s) hacking, you're wasting clones. If you spawn at a nearby CRU instead, or if you spawn at another point and move in from there, you can push the enemy team away and reclaim the objective before it flips. If you attack with several players to push the enemy into spawning/swarming that objective, then someone else attacks one of the other objectives, most of the enemy team is usually focused on the fight in front of them, and you get a free hack, at which point, usually more players than the team can afford will abandon the current fight to come after your freshly-hacked objective - which they can no longer spawn on after you've hacked it. If you could spawn on objectives after the hack but before it flips, there would be a problem. But once that process starts, you're locked out of spawning there, so the attackers need to efectively form a defensive perimeter watching for spawns and external approach - As it should be, attacking requires a coordinated effort, and so does a successful defense.
Bucktooth Badger Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop 75	Posted - 2013.04.19 07:34:00 - [60] - Quote Just a quick post to lend my support to this suggestion. This game has evolved massively over the last few builds, so it would be good to bring some tactics & strategy to the playing field before the game playing becomes stale & not keeping up with the mechanics. Basically - Make the blob think!



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