Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
850
   |
Posted - 2013.03.27 05:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Baal, KAGEHOSHI, I'm baffled. Usually I heartily support what I hear from both of you and even when we disagree I feel you make solid well reasoned points, on the first part of this thread however I've been pretty much shaking my head wondering if I'm reading an elaborate troll. These two quotes however turn the tide back toward the quality and clarity I've gown accustomed to from both of you.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
To prevent MCC spawn camping, THE MCCs SHOULD ROTATE AROUND THE MAP. This means the drop zone will always be different, and make the battle more dynamic s a result.
Baal Roo wrote:
In my own personal vision, each objective would have an accompanying "built in" CRU that was NEAR the objective, but not directly on top of it. Some maps currently have this already for some objectives. Yes, it seems like a minor change, but the strategic implications would add quite a bit to the game, making the choice of "do we hack the objective or the CRU first" (and defenders would have to make similar choices) much more important.
I can happily support those two changes to the current system and Baal if your vision were in place I think that would indeed add nuance to Skirmish that would be a breath of fresh air.
Having said that I do feel the need to post a couple of counter points to other ideas raised in this thread, if any of the ideas I'm responding to are now "outdated" in favor of the above quoted suggestions feel free to ignore my responses on those counts and I'll proceed in this thread under the assumption that they're ideas which we've moved beyond during the course of discussion and are no longer on the table.
More CRUs - This in itself is a fine idea, but is in no way a possible substitue for the current NC spawn points. Our standard CRUs can be popped by HAV fire (or even upgraded LAV/Forge fire) much more rapidly that seems to have been acknowledged. I've been in matches as recently as tonight where a single Proto Swarm user took out all the CRUs and Depots on the map from behind his own teams lines of defense and still had time/ammo to take out several LAVs as well. If one guy with swarms can do that even doubling or tripling the total CRUs pre map won't allow them to survive a single squad who's decided to take them out. This leads to far less tactical game play as one squad (or less) can unilaterally redefine the battlefield and increase the frequency of spawn camps. Red lines are boaring and are fed by having few/bottlenecked spawing locations, we need less of it not more.
Sky Spawn - Another case of an idea that is fine and even good as an addition to the game but as a substitution becomes terrible. Talk about removing tactical game play make every spawn both more obvious to opposing forces and more vulnerable to being DOA. Again spawn camping reduces fun and should be minimized not supported by map mechanics, which forcing mercs into a predictable, obvious and exposed spawning method most certainly does.
Uplinks - These are heavily underused, and granted the "hidden in the terrain" bug is a problem but they honestly don't need a buff or more of a reason for use. In fact making them more tactically useful pushes the limits of being broken.
I can already get 4 uplinks out during the opening of a match on my own having set up a spawn network on/near ever NC. With a squad of 4 that's 16 links and that's while only having level 1 in the uplinks skill. When I had proto uplinks before the wipe I could nearly hit that squad mark by myself and I'm usually able to earn several hundred WPs off the uplinks alone (that becomes around a thousand in an ambush oms which the total removal of static/indestructible spawns would push skirmish towards). Beyond that having them be a "mainstay" of general spawning as opposed to tactical spawning runs into the same sorts of problems that CRUs face as outlined above, except that you don't even need AV to take them out.
Hacking - Solo Don't undersell the value of character skills. During closed beta I ran a solo infiltrator hack fit with full skill support. I used only the SMG as a weapon and was still able to 'run the table' on many pub matches. I did not need to kill opposing forces, and I rarely ever got popped by either hidden forces or spawners, such a role is not only viable but highly effective (in pubs anyway, Corp/FW is another beast).
Squad - The squad I run with tends to have one guy start the hack and to others jump on at 50%. This not only means max WP gains from it but also that we're rarely pulled off the hack by incoming hostile squads, much less piecemeal spawn ins.
Summation - I agree with much of the principle of this thread but any alterations must be done very carefully with an eye to maintaining many dynamic spawn locations that are not purely player dependent as in the present game it is already far to easy to trap and spawn camp a team removing all tactical play from the game. I highly support the quoted text above but would add current CRUs should at least stay at present levels (tho more would be fine) even with those changes.
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
886
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 17:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ellithana Mori wrote:The other good part, is it could easily reduce or eliminate the need for an arbitrary spawn timer that is as long as it is (especially not one that is as long as it is). The only real reason we need a spawn timer is so that we can't just continuously respawn on an objective that's in the middle of being hacked. If we can't spawn there anyway, then it doesn't really matter, and the point is moot. Especially since CRUs don't flash when they're getting hacked, so even if you're losing one, you have no idea which one until it's too late. Further if we have to sit through a little animation when coming out the CRU, then there's really no need for a spawn timer, which is a super arbitrary and immersion breaking mechanic....
I really have to disagree here, elimination of the spawn timer (all possible mechanical implications which there may or may not be aside) would require a total overhaul of the Dropuplinks stats and lore. One of the key aspects many offer is a reduced spawn timer which this would invalidate completely thus reducing the diversity of equipment options in game.
Also the spawn timer is only 2-3 sec when someone holds rather than bleeds out instantly thus allowing time to be revived and saving clones (valuable in both Ambush and Skirmish) and saving ISK in PC where clones will have a buy price.
Moving back to lore there's no reason instant transfer of consciousness and physical form holds to the present lore more fully.
A space side transfer takes 24 hours to move into a Jump Clone. Obviously this is totally untenable for Dust and I wouldn't want that mechanic transferred however "spawning out of thin air" simply isn't as far as lore is concerned. Uplinks have wormhole/blackhole tech in them which creates the spawn location, if such tech can be deployed in a small mobile disc then it can certainly be included in larger ground based infrastructure like the Null Cannons.
I'm not saying that lore can/should invalidate the point of this thread but if we're going with lore/immersion in game then the fixes called for are pretty much the opposite of this threads proposals. Personally while I do think lore is important I also think mechanical balance trumps lore.
0.02 ISK
Cross
ps ~ one more thing, more related to the OP, the worst situation for removing tactical game play from a match is redline camping (and I don't mean camping within the red zone, that's second place) I mean red lining a team in the first place. Earnings in WP/ISK/SP are higher for longer matches and matches were one team isn't camped in leaving the opposing team at least one objective is more rewarding both from the stand point of all in game earnings and from the standpoint of basic entertainment value of the match. Furthermore when PC comes out there will be times (depending on side) when you want to clone a team not destroy their MCC, in which case red lining them becomes bad tactical play on a whole new level. We need to be very careful not to add any new mechanics that can encourage this non-tactical redline centric "rinse and repeat" quick match style play, it's less fun, less rewarding and requires less ability. The practice of "redlining" should be discouraged and any new mechanics should at minimum avoid making it any easier/more likely.
|