DUST Search - [Request] Militia weapons: Killing the need for improvement (A simple fix, too)

DAMIOS82 wrote:

You know i was just thinking the same last night, about militia weapons.

The weapons and suits should be/are class based, so first you have the starters kits, then militia, then standard, advanced, then prototype... right. The way i see it is someone with standard equipment should be able to take out someone with militia gear faster, someone with advanced gear should be able to take someone out with militiagear alott faster.

Now i play type2 heavy so that's an advanced suit, i use a broadside HMG, also advanced, i use armor and shield mods. and yet i noticed i get take down just as fast, by someone with a militia AR or SMG, then i would by someone with a Gek. Now this should not be possible. I know some people may say play better and granted i'm not the best, but i'm not bad either. Yet when i look at the facts its just ridiculous. Even if they use damage mods, it should take someone longer to kill me with militia weapons, then it would a different tier weapon and not that no matter what, you get taken down like a knife thrue butter.

The stats difference between weapons is way to low. a starter kit weapon should do low damage, militia little bit better then low, standard normal damage, advanced alott of damage and prototype is carnage. And the same go's for suits. yet somehow someone with 800 armor, gets taken down just as fast as someone with 180.
Now offcourse this could all just be an opticall Illusion, but there is hardly any difference in both gear and weapons, when you look at it and i believe there should be better distinction between the damage the different class weapons do and how much damage the different class suits can take.

But that's my oppinion

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Vir Sigvaldt RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 20	Posted - 2013.02.03 05:35:00 - [1] - Quote Hiya, I've been getting highly agitated about something over the past 48 hours... Militia Assault Rifles. They're free, they're everywhere and they still kill way faster than my SMG in close quarters sometimes. After a while of seeing most of my kills being to Militia Assault Rifles, I began to realize something about the mentality being created by the militia gear. Militia gear itself isn't the problem. The real problem is that there is no real cost to use them while upgrading is often too expensive to be worth the gain. This doesn't just apply to Militia Assault Rifles, they just stand out to me the most because I try to play anti-vehicle a lot and get screwed over by anyone with a militia assault rifle because I'm stuck with a sidearm and none of them seem to be able to compete with assault rifles (and because I despise assault rifles and their "I win at every range except snipers," but that's a rant for another day.) This problem really applies to all militia items. The real problem I see with militia gear is that it leaves no strong incentive to improve your gear. It's cheap (or free,) it's often built in to the dropsuits, it's just as good as standard gear and the increased CPU and PG only really matter if you're trying to change the dropsuit and/or are too lazy/cheap to train up the CPU/PG skills to rank three each. Why would you ever want to buy standard gear? And because everyone is using gear that is cheap/free, they have no problem chasing you through your own team to kill you when you put skills and isk into your gear. Okay, so maybe an enemy running through your own team to kill you is a bit of an exaggeration, but the idea is that because their gear is extremely cheap or even free while still being able to stand toe-to-toe with standard items lets them do really stupid stuff and still manage to pull it off without risking any isk. It also drags a team down when you get players who play recklessly like that. I thought of a simple change that wouldn't cripple militia gear, but would make the standard gear suddenly a lot more appealing to players. Rather than simply nerf the militia gear to be worse than the standard gear, why not just make militia gear no longer benefit from skills? All those points you put into Assault Rifle Operation? Now you have to buy a standard assault rifle or better for those to kick in. Or at the very least, make this change to items that are built into a fit to encourage them to at least buy the militia items. What I would see this change doing is make the standard items look more appealing (who buys a standard item when you can use the militia one right now, right?) because of the following reasons: -Now if you've trained into something, you have to invest ISK in the real deal item to gain the benefit of that training. -Gives standard gear an edge over militia gear. -Will encourage less moronic behavior because the players who upgrade will want to protect their investments somewhat and those who don't upgrade will not be as powerful and therefore not able to get away with their stunts as easily. TL;DR -Militia gear offers no real incentive for improvement to most players as-is. -No cost means they don't care about dying in stupid ways, thus hurting their team. -My solution: Stats you see on the militia gear is what you get, training skills no longer improve militia gear. -Would offer a strong incentive to replace militia items with standard gear or better. -Militia Assault Rifle grunts have a special place in hell waiting for them. This isn't CoD, buy some gear already.
amarrian victorian Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2013.02.03 05:46:00 - [2] - Quote I thought milita rifles had more kick.
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 131	Posted - 2013.02.03 05:54:00 - [3] - Quote I think all militia and standerd are to powerful not enough difference between them and advanced/proto..i dont want a. huge difference but atleast make it worth skilling into
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Legacy Rising 53	Posted - 2013.02.03 05:56:00 - [4] - Quote SMG is a sidearm, they are not primary weapons. you only use it if you run out of shots on primary, or your primary is a swarm launcher. They definably need to make standard gear better than millita though, fitting differences make little difference. Teir 3 gear though is actualy better, and considering that people complain about the GEK, and I get commonly see kills by it, it must be like the millita verson but better, because otherwise people wound't pay all that isk for it, or complain about dieing to it.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 168	Posted - 2013.02.03 07:36:00 - [5] - Quote I use an HMG normally with a SMG as back up. Under ideal circumstances, the only way any SMG should win over an AR is if the SMG gets a significant jump in the AR. In a straight up toe to toe, the SMG will, and should, loose to the AR every time supposing ideal conditions for both.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.02.03 07:58:00 - [6] - Quote I don't understand why the shield and armor on dropsuits doesn't increase by 10% per tier. I though it was just heavy suits until I checked the market. As far as I could see, it was only the high/low power slots that go up depending on the suit. Wtf, CCP? The top heavy suit is ridiculously expensive and has the same shield and armor as a type 2. That's just silly. I'm not asking for a buff of heavy suits, I'm saying they could all use a buff.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 168	Posted - 2013.02.03 08:30:00 - [7] - Quote Kovak Therim wrote: I don't understand why the shield and armor on dropsuits doesn't increase by 10% per tier. I though it was just heavy suits until I checked the market. As far as I could see, it was only the high/low power slots that go up depending on the suit. Wtf, CCP? The top heavy suit is ridiculously expensive and has the same shield and armor as a type 2. That's just silly. I'm not asking for a buff of heavy suits, I'm saying they could all use a buff. Power grid and CPU increase as you go up in armor quality which allows one to fit better modules. That coupled with an extra slot at the top tier can make a world of difference.
DAMIOS82 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 3	Posted - 2013.02.03 08:37:00 - [8] - Quote You know i was just thinking the same last night, about militia weapons. The weapons and suits should be/are class based, so first you have the starters kits, then militia, then standard, advanced, then prototype... right. The way i see it is someone with standard equipment should be able to take out someone with militia gear faster, someone with advanced gear should be able to take someone out with militiagear alott faster. Now i play type2 heavy so that's an advanced suit, i use a broadside HMG, also advanced, i use armor and shield mods. and yet i noticed i get take down just as fast, by someone with a militia AR or SMG, then i would by someone with a Gek. Now this should not be possible. I know some people may say play better and granted i'm not the best, but i'm not bad either. Yet when i look at the facts its just ridiculous. Even if they use damage mods, it should take someone longer to kill me with militia weapons, then it would a different tier weapon and not that no matter what, you get taken down like a knife thrue butter. The stats difference between weapons is way to low. a starter kit weapon should do low damage, militia little bit better then low, standard normal damage, advanced alott of damage and prototype is carnage. And the same go's for suits. yet somehow someone with 800 armor, gets taken down just as fast as someone with 180. Now offcourse this could all just be an opticall Illusion, but there is hardly any difference in both gear and weapons, when you look at it and i believe there should be better distinction between the damage the different class weapons do and how much damage the different class suits can take. But that's my oppinion
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 168	Posted - 2013.02.03 08:54:00 - [9] - Quote DAMIOS82 wrote: You know i was just thinking the same last night, about militia weapons. The weapons and suits should be/are class based, so first you have the starters kits, then militia, then standard, advanced, then prototype... right. The way i see it is someone with standard equipment should be able to take out someone with militia gear faster, someone with advanced gear should be able to take someone out with militiagear alott faster. Now i play type2 heavy so that's an advanced suit, i use a broadside HMG, also advanced, i use armor and shield mods. and yet i noticed i get take down just as fast, by someone with a militia AR or SMG, then i would by someone with a Gek. Now this should not be possible. I know some people may say play better and granted i'm not the best, but i'm not bad either. Yet when i look at the facts its just ridiculous. Even if they use damage mods, it should take someone longer to kill me with militia weapons, then it would a different tier weapon and not that no matter what, you get taken down like a knife thrue butter. The stats difference between weapons is way to low. a starter kit weapon should do low damage, militia little bit better then low, standard normal damage, advanced alott of damage and prototype is carnage. And the same go's for suits. yet somehow someone with 800 armor, gets taken down just as fast as someone with 180. Now offcourse this could all just be an opticall Illusion, but there is hardly any difference in both gear and weapons, when you look at it and i believe there should be better distinction between the damage the different class weapons do and how much damage the different class suits can take. But that's my oppinion Starter kit gear is militia. The only difference between Militia weapons and tier one weapons as far as I've been able to see is that tier one weapons take less PG and/or CPU. As one increases up the tiers the cumulative difference between damage outputs after all is only supposed to be about 5% per tier. It used to be higher but players were complaining about dieing to fast from higher tier weapons. However, I know that Militia heavy suit has less armor than the tiered suits. Not sure if that difference exists on the other types of suits.
Don Von Hulio UnReaL. 90	Posted - 2013.02.03 11:59:00 - [10] - Quote It holds less ammo in the clip. While the Assault Rifle holds 60, the militai variant holds 48 iirc. I think you are just mad you were killed in general. If it was a GEK im sure this would be another "OMG OP thread". If CCP changed the assault rifles now, it would be either OP, or UP or worst case scenario broke in general like the Rocket turrets are.

Vir Sigvaldt RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 20	Posted - 2013.02.03 14:57:00 - [11] - Quote Don Von Hulio wrote: It holds less ammo in the clip. While the Assault Rifle holds 60, the militai variant holds 48 iirc. I think you are just mad you were killed in general. If it was a GEK im sure this would be another "OMG OP thread". I am trying to address a real problem. I am not so immature that I would post a thread whining about the GEK, as annoying as it can be. I am frustrated that people are playing like a bunch of reckless idiots because they are using free gear that is just as good as the gear I pay for half the time. At least when I kill someone who was using a GEK, it cost them something, there was a risk on their part in using it, but militia/starter gear carries little to no risk. The things I hate the GEK, for the most part, apply to just about every variant of the assault rifle, but that's for another day. If someone needs more than 48 rounds to land a kill with an assault rifle, they're doing something wrong. Even if they manage to run out of ammo, hiding behind something and reloading is a fairly simple concept and doesn't take very long either. And like I said, this isn't just about the Militia Assault Rifles or even militia weapons in general. I would like to see militia dropsuits and modules be affected by this change as well. If you want the financial security of your super-cheap and/or free gear, there has to be a significant drawback. That Militia Swarm Launcher, your skills no longer affect not just the splash range but also don't reduce the PG/CPU cost for it or any of your other gear. That militia shield booster on your tank now doesn't lose it's CPU/PG cost by training skills. I'd even settle for the change being applied only to items that are built into a dropsuit instead so they would have to start buying their militia gear at least. And I know the Assault Rifle should beat the SMG for the most part because it's a sidearm (really frustrating because it seems like anyone who doesn't have an assault rifle on their fit is suddenly at a huge disadvantage,) I was just using an example from my experience. I gave up on the Assault Rifle because I didn't feel like being a grunt and wanted to take on an actual specialist role. Bad example, move along. The thought behind this is that you buy militia gear to try out an item, then if you want to start using them you start putting skill points into that weapon's skill and start buying the actual weapon when you think you are ready to.
Raze galder Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2013.02.03 16:29:00 - [12] - Quote Kovak Therim wrote: I don't understand why the shield and armor on dropsuits doesn't increase by 10% per tier. I though it was just heavy suits until I checked the market. As far as I could see, it was only the high/low power slots that go up depending on the suit. Wtf, CCP? The top heavy suit is ridiculously expensive and has the same shield and armor as a type 2. That's just silly. I'm not asking for a buff of heavy suits, I'm saying they could all use a buff. Originally the armors hp and shields did increase as u advanced from regular to prototype. But people complained that they where to strong and they flat lined them a crossed the board.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 168	Posted - 2013.02.03 20:48:00 - [13] - Quote Vir Sigvaldt wrote: And I know the Assault Rifle should beat the SMG for the most part because it's a sidearm (really frustrating because it seems like anyone who doesn't have an assault rifle on their fit is suddenly at a huge disadvantage,) I was just using an example from my experience. I gave up on the Assault Rifle because I didn't feel like being a grunt and wanted to take on an actual specialist role. Bad example, move along. It's cool. No worries. My two heavy fits run SMG backup. Though with the mouse sensitivity fix I might just go back to the Scrambler. But yeah, maybe a 5% increase in armor for Amarr ans Galente suits and 5% boost in shields for Caldari and Minmatar suits per tier. That would be more in line with the aproximately 5% per tier overall damage increase that weapons have.
JohnDS Wolf Exit Wound Heavy Industries 10	Posted - 2013.02.03 23:47:00 - [14] - Quote All guns (in a gun type) should be able to take out enemies with little advantage over the other. Milita NEEDS to be competive, end of story. Just because a gun is "better" then the other, if they use the same round, they both kill just as fast. it dosn't matter if one costs more than the other. if anything, once they add attatchments, proto can fit 3 attatchments instead of 2 or 2 instead of the usual 1 instead of a weapon damage/range advantage. Don't like dieing to the Milita gear, don't play at all.
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.04 00:07:00 - [15] - Quote What you proposing will unbalance the game allot. How you'll encourage new players to play the game, if they get kill over and over again, and they never kill anything their self ? It is a reason why the standard gear is how it is ; "To encourage new players to keep playing"
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 131	Posted - 2013.02.04 00:10:00 - [16] - Quote JohnDS Wolf wrote: All guns (in a gun type) should be able to take out enemies with little advantage over the other. Milita NEEDS to be competive, end of story. Just because a gun is "better" then the other, if they use the same round, they both kill just as fast. it dosn't matter if one costs more than the other. if anything, once they add attatchments, proto can fit 3 attatchments instead of 2 or 2 instead of the usual 1 instead of a weapon damage/range advantage. Don't like dieing to the Milita gear, don't play at all. I dont die by it but i have used it enough to say what i think..
Shledder OMNI Endeavors 4	Posted - 2013.02.04 00:56:00 - [17] - Quote I actually agree with the original post to an extent. I have tried out the breach and assault rifle and once I ran out (I bought 10 of each) I've been just using the free default "frontline" loadout. What I've found is that the militia AR gets the job done just as well the other two, and since it doesn't cost isk, it really does encourage players to storm into battle. I agree that players should be encouraged to buy things with their isk, otherwise what's the point in having it. Militia weapons could be nerfed easily by increasing reload speed, lowering the amount of ammo you can carry for it, don't allow them to be fitted with scopes/grips/etc (I recall reading about this being a future feature).
Dr Debo Galaxy GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 201	Posted - 2013.02.04 01:02:00 - [18] - Quote The incentive for advancement is the PG/CPU usage. As a logi I can not have a full suit while using my militia uplink because it cost to much CPU/PG. Then once I started using 3 slot equipment suits there was more CPU/PG balancing. If people want to use militia gear thats cool by me, but I feel the further the game progresses the need for standard and advanced gear will be more obvious. Especially when battling in low and nullsec.
JohnDS Wolf Exit Wound Heavy Industries 10	Posted - 2013.02.04 01:03:00 - [19] - Quote Shledder wrote: I actually agree with the original post to an extent. I have tried out the breach and assault rifle and once I ran out (I bought 10 of each) I've been just using the free default "frontline" loadout. What I've found is that the militia AR gets the job done just as well the other two, and since it doesn't cost isk, it really does encourage players to storm into battle. I agree that players should be encouraged to buy things with their isk, otherwise what's the point in having it. Militia weapons could be nerfed easily by increasing reload speed, lowering the amount of ammo you can carry for it, don't allow them to be fitted with scopes/grips/etc (I recall reading about this being a future feature). i can out shoot you withOUT any skills in LA sharpshooter, AND my gun uses less CPU/PG and more ammo in the clip. that being said, i see no reason why your Milita AR can't kill me. you're eather a better shot or got the jump on me. also, less CPU/PG is great for a Logi class. the extra bullets is a must as well sence you don't have a SA slot. so there is an insentive for better weapons. also, you get a choice with standard equipment compaired to Milita equipment
Vir Sigvaldt RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 20	Posted - 2013.02.04 01:05:00 - [20] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: What you proposing will unbalance the game allot. How you'll encourage new players to play the game, if they get kill over and over again, and they never kill anything their self ? It is a reason why the standard gear is how it is ; "To encourage new players to keep playing" Except that new players haven't put a lot of SP into the skills related to weapons yet, so they wouldn't notice the difference anyways. I never said to nerf the militia gear, into the point of no one being able to kill anything with it just make it so that it doesn't get any better as you train into skills. This would be to create a point where people would go, "Okay, I'm done with militia gear now." instead of staying with it FOREVER like some people do. This way players will have their militia gear that will do finely while they don't have the skills, but then they'll reach a point where they'll have to start buying gear if they want to see their skills they trained into kick in.

JohnDS Wolf Exit Wound Heavy Industries 10	Posted - 2013.02.04 05:02:00 - [21] - Quote Vir Sigvaldt wrote: Except that new players haven't put a lot of SP into the skills related to weapons yet, so they wouldn't notice the difference anyways. I never said to nerf the militia gear, into the point of no one being able to kill anything with it just make it so that it doesn't get any better as you train into skills. This would be to create a point where people would go, "Okay, I'm done with militia gear now." instead of staying with it FOREVER like some people do. This way players will have their militia gear that will do finely while they don't have the skills, but then they'll reach a point where they'll have to start buying gear if they want to see their skills they trained into kick in. i realy don't know how to reply to this. on one hand i say no cause the skills them selves give a huge advantage to other weapons who already have a range advantage. on the other hand i say it's a good idea because it would make Milita gear usuable but not all time used. but i'm pritty sure we'll get added effects to standard, advance, protogear for PVE missions and the like.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries 81	Posted - 2013.02.04 08:01:00 - [22] - Quote JohnDS Wolf wrote: All guns (in a gun type) should be able to take out enemies with little advantage over the other. Milita NEEDS to be competive, end of story. Just because a gun is "better" then the other, if they use the same round, they both kill just as fast. it dosn't matter if one costs more than the other. if anything, once they add attatchments, proto can fit 3 attatchments instead of 2 or 2 instead of the usual 1 instead of a weapon damage/range advantage. Don't like dieing to the Milita gear, don't play at all. It looks like we have another Mallitia Rambo here trying to justify his Mallitia Gear lol/
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2013.02.04 08:57:00 - [23] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I think all militia and standerd are to powerful not enough difference between them and advanced/proto..i dont want a. huge difference but atleast make it worth skilling into I'm sorry but i see the difference between my GEK and a standard AR. It's pretty huge after a while.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 220	Posted - 2013.02.04 09:21:00 - [24] - Quote I agree with Cazaderon above but I think this whole problem could be easily solved if they implemented a system whereby you can only use militia gear until you reach a certain threshold of SP, say 1.5mil maybe. Or in the future, when we have different sec zones, militia can only be used in hi-sec.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 168	Posted - 2013.02.04 19:47:00 - [25] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I agree with Cazaderon above but I think this whole problem could be easily solved if they implemented a system whereby you can only use militia gear until you reach a certain threshold of SP, say 1.5mil maybe. Or in the future, when we have different sec zones, militia can only be used in hi-sec. The SP threshold would be a bad idea. There are times when I have to switch to AR or sniper and I have skills in neither of those. Militia is the only thing I can use for those. It would also cause issues for people who bought the AUR BPOs.
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 131	Posted - 2013.02.04 20:10:00 - [26] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: I think all militia and standerd are to powerful not enough difference between them and advanced/proto..i dont want a. huge difference but atleast make it worth skilling into I'm sorry but i see the difference between my GEK and a standard AR. It's pretty huge after a while. When you get the creo then you can compare until then you dont know...the gek oo 1.5 damage more sooo awesome..when you use a creo you will see what i mean
Dozer RoadBlock The Amtal Rule 1	Posted - 2013.02.04 20:29:00 - [27] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I agree with Cazaderon above but I think this whole problem could be easily solved if they implemented a system whereby you can only use militia gear until you reach a certain threshold of SP, say 1.5mil maybe. Or in the future, when we have different sec zones, militia can only be used in hi-sec. not to mention the militia gear is used to build back up your money cause you caught a case of the dumb ass and let your 400-500k tank get AV naded to death
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2013.02.04 20:36:00 - [28] - Quote i thought training in skills already doesn't improve the weapon. training in AR doesn't give the militia AR and i believe the Exile any bonuses because those weapons don't require those skills to begin with. same with all militia gear, the items don't have skill requirements so they don't gain the benefit of the skills if someone spends skill points in it.
Halador Osiris Dead Six Initiative 47	Posted - 2013.02.04 21:47:00 - [29] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I think all militia and standerd are to powerful not enough difference between them and advanced/proto..i dont want a. huge difference but atleast make it worth skilling into My feel is that militia needs a certain strength to it in order to retain newberries who feel like they can't get any kills when they start. However, I definitely think that militia gear should either get more expensive the higher your skill points go, or just disappear entirely after, say, 1 million SP.
Coleman Gray Coalition Of Goverments 47	Posted - 2013.02.04 22:04:00 - [30] - Quote I think you should have a limited period or when you gained so many SP that you can no longer use militia gear



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