Maybe I'm not reading this right, which is a very real possibility, but the first part of the post seems to indicate that AR users are hitting with 90% accuracy at 15meters? Is that right? That may be the case against heavies, but good luck getting anywhere near 90% accuracy against a scout suit or even a decent assault straffer. This smells strongly of a "nerf AR" thread and tries to use misleading and misguided calculations to back it up.

Also, you're completely ignoring LR, Mass drivers, shotguns, etc etc which can have major impacts on how the other weapons and suits are balanced. Practice doesn't always follow theory.

I'm sorry but what was the point again?

A heavy has way more EHP than an Assault suit and both can deal identical damage. The immediate downsides of the heavy suit are cost as well as slower speed and the lack of the utility slot.

Also, heavy suits have a role in that they offer weapons exclusive to it.

- So what was the point again? that HMG's suck, or did I miss anything?

I chose the weapons that were commonly used and easy to compare, to elaborate a point. the LAR is hard because it's EM based damage does more to shields, which wouldn't be a problem if CCP would tell us our resistances. The MD is hard because its both a burst and an approximate fire weapon. The SG is hard because its a burst fire weapon.

The calculations i am using figures for an ideal situation with unrecoverable loss given as an average. (Think 2 guys standing still at 15m. if there was movement involved i would have used hip fire for the AR, SMG and HMG.)

I am not saying "Nerf AR" i like the weapon, and use it often. However I am saying, "Increase our effective hit points relative to current high end damage output, or we will have SPACE COD 514. Where there is only one logical choice and everything else is novelty..."

This is too theoretical and, frankly, inaccurate. If CCP gave accuracy numbers for each character, which I wish they did, you'd find 90% is way too high for AR (even if you could somehow manage to make all your encounters 15m).

I'm sorry but what was the point again?

A heavy has way more EHP than an Assault suit and both can deal identical damage. The immediate downsides of the heavy suit are cost as well as slower speed and the lack of the utility slot.

Also, heavy suits have a role in that they offer weapons exclusive to it.

- So what was the point again? that HMG's suck, or did I miss anything?

I based that on my alt using 2 complex damage mods and a type 2 Assault suit. As it so happened there were plenty of new berries standing about to scope and burn, TTL was about 1.1-1.5 seconds (while strafing) in each case to support my claims.

The HMG and AR are fine as they are, as is the Assault and Heavy (Scout and Logi need specific attention, see above.) base EHP is too low across the board. I wont say this game should feel like we are firing foam darts. however if something isn't changed the first to fire will win 98% of the time, making this game far less enjoyable then it should be requiring less skill and situation awareness then it should.

If nothing gets changed once folks get into the 10-20mil SP range I will be proven unfortunately correct.

First, I would like to say good job on taking the time to go through all this.

However, like others have mentioned, 90% is way too high. In some games (like CoD), they actually track your individual weapon accuracy. I'd say the average for ARs is somewhere around 20-40%. I'm willing to bet that Dust is actually lower than that considering aiming is slightly more difficult/clunky in Dust compared to CoD.

Dust uses Absolute firing (as opposed to relative that has to factor projectile velocity and bullet drop and weapon inertia (except for the Mass Driver and to a lesser extent Forge Gun)) so if you are, or are not on target at the time when the round is supposed to be que'd for fire it will hit or it wont based on an algorithm that CCP has failed to disclose. (not saying they should)

What does that mean? Up scope the AR puts out almost a laser line of bullets. Crouched and in doom mode the HMG and SMG can do almost the same but not quite as accurately based on the algorithm. If on target when the round is fired it will hit, or wont hit the tracer rounds are pretty much for show to aid in the ambiance of the game.

That still doesn't account for actually aiming at moving targets while you're moving, etc. The benefit of the HMG and downside of AR in a real-world (I use the term to refer to a Dust battle in practice) are, ironically, the inverse upsides and downsides you mentioned in theory. The AR is more accurate, and HMG less so, but that also means you have to be more precise when aiming your AR at a moving target, which is exactly why 90% is too high for any real-world scenario. The HMG, on the other hand, has that sort of cylinder of fire that allows you to be a decent bit off but still do moderate damage.

Your completely ignoring the speed of the 2nd type Logisuit.

And yes, scout is broken. A scout can sneak up on a heavy, hit him square in the back, and the heavy will have time to turn and mow him down before he gets a third hit off.

I want about .3-.5 more base speed on scouts.

Dust uses Absolute firing (as opposed to relative that has to factor projectile velocity and bullet drop and weapon inertia (except for the Mass Driver and to a lesser extent Forge Gun)) so if you are, or are not on target at the time when the round is supposed to be que'd for fire it will hit or it wont based on an algorithm that CCP has failed to disclose. (not saying they should)

What does that mean? Up scope the AR puts out almost a laser line of bullets. Crouched and in doom mode the HMG and SMG can do almost the same but not quite as accurately based on the algorithm. If on target when the round is fired it will hit, or wont hit the tracer rounds are pretty much for show to aid in the ambiance of the game.

It's .1 faster then the version with the additional slot and still slower then any Assault. Again, im not trying to be critical of the Assault but "Dem's da numbers."

@ Parson Atreides

This is 100% opinion based on this game with me at the helm, and admittedly i am better then most, But... Here goes.
HMG Heavy > SG Scout 85% of the time
AR Assault > SG Scout 80% of the time
HMG Heavy > SG Assault 65% of the time
AR Assault > SG Assault 65% of the time

Scouts are broken, they are too thin. If they cant get the jump (and yes the SG requires surprise in both instances.) the assault is far more forgiving, and the scout doesn't have the speed anymore to close the gap or disengage a to seek cover most of the time. This carries over to EVERY weapon be it Swarm Launcher or Scrampler Pistol. Not saying they cant be used to great effect, just that they would be better served to just use an Assault Suit.

Logi don't have a sidearm option, less health and move slower then Assaults. I never consider a logi in a 1v1 scenario. They succeed vicariously from their team mates. As they exist, they are focus fired first to easily eliminate the additional DPS, HPS or utility from the field. They need more stay power to effectively act as a force multiplier for the guys they are acting to preserve, aid and maintain.

In warfare, the ability to deal damage has always outpaced the ability to defend against it. It's a law of nature, or else all the predators would have died out long ago.

Your talking about endgame stats here. Well, lets look at them in the hands of endgame players. Because every weapon can kill every suit with minimal differences in TTL, then in the hands of pros, it becomes, not a COD frag fest, but a highly precise tactical game of maneuvering, cover, numbers, flanking, and the all important X factors.

That is something I really like about this game. Everything is OP. In the hands of a real killer, anything will tear you to shreds if your not on your game.

I feel sorry for the scrubs though. Maybe they could use more EHP.

Its not that hard, strafing and up scope i can keep a bead on some one's dome piece with relative ease. (sure I dont do it 100% of the time but i do it often enough to feel the need to make a thread about it.) Plus my Assault and Heavy has been killed enough times by one person under 2 seconds to know that these numbers are not by any means a stretch. Deny it all you want, it doesn't make it any less true.

the proto logi suit with complex kinetic catalyzers is the fastest dropsuit in the game. This is pretty typical for minmatar equipment.

With the profile dampening skill, I wouldn't be surprised if a Shotgun scout could be very productive. And that's really what the scout is for, isn't it? If you're seen as a scout, you shouldn't really win the fight if the other guy has gear and a skill level roughly equal to yours--just like if a scout comes up behind you and gets that first shot, you're the one who loses.

I have seen "end game," and most of my experiences can be boiled down to what i am trying to say. Hell, even now the only reason that the Heavies are viable is because they are markedly more powerful at lower SP levels. A few months from now they will be as laughable as they were at the end of the last build.

we need the other racial basic suits in order for a solid comparison.

I broke this down numerically in some one else's scout based thread. In the end (all 5) Both Assault and Scout have a smaller profile then can be seen by any current scan resolution (yes that's including scan precision LV 5). making the "but scouts are invisible on radar," argument a moot point.

Please make a video of you shooting people in the head 90% of the time with the AR while you're both moving, then make a video of how you only manage to hit people with two-thirds of your shots with an HMG. These two don't mesh, in my mind.

Just admit this is a "nerf AR" thread so we can all move on.

Then, at best, they need a small buff to dropsuit profile. Making the scouts faster is only going to make the only counter someone has to them (seeing them first) all but meaningless. They tried giving scouts a lot of speed a few builds back and they were just impossible to hit. It made running a Shotgun scout (or really any close-range weapon) face-roll easy.

Either way, night all.

it's a stealth "buff heavy and scout proto suits" thread.

because endgame logis are absolutely potent when you specialize them. You can stack four shield extenders and four armor plates, or four reppers, or something equally silly on them.

but heavies are pretty much meat socks at the proto level. seen the end of the last closed beta build. proto logi, scout and assault all over the place in pubmatches.

never saw a single proto heavy.

Assuming I did the calculations correct a basic militia AR with no mods or skills would only do 12.9 DPS less than the sixkin. This is all done by your method, missing 1/10 bullets ect. So I'm wondering if this is the case how will endgame be significantly different than it is now? A fully specced Duvolle will only shave off roughly .25 seconds. You're not including any armor mods are you? Even one of those should easily add .2 seconds on to survivability. Also by looking at the numbers you included the bonuses from shield control and field mechanic already correct?

What does this all mean? This game is on a collision course to being a COD clone just a short few months down the road. AR Assault will be the only logical choice. Every other tactical decision on the battle field will boil down to parlor tricks. (excluding HAV's) If this is allowed to continue. What can be done to fix this?

-Extend the EHP by a factor of 1.8, greatly increase the values of shield and armor modules, or reduce the damage potential by .4.
-Fix the stacking penalty for damage mods.
-This mentioned this briefly before, but MAKE SCOUTS FASTER.
-Increase Logistics EHP to bridge the gap between Assault and Heavy. They cant act as an effective force multiplier if they are a liability.
-Add Roll bonus's to Dropsuit's.

I'm not going to say that this is the only way. I am going to say that if something isn't done soon to radically change this games balance no amount of meta game is going to compensate.

You make many good points and I enjoyed the data. I tend to agree with you and never supported the nerf to dropsuit hp. It could have used some adjustment but the idea of removing HP gains always seemed short sighted. And I have no problem with adding some HP to some different higher tier suits. But make scouts faster (in bold, no less) seems to be a really simplistic proposed solution and not really related to the evidence. WHat do you mean by "faster?" Sprint speed? Strafing speed or speed of lateral movement? Jumping speed? Turning speed? Or just faster in all possible ways that the character model can move?

Also, there is a glaring flaw in your argument. It assumes "best case scenario". And then draws a conclusion about the future of the game but "best case scenario" won't ever actually occur in the game itself.

And it only allows for tactical decision making in terms of micro balance (one v. one gunfights) and relegates any other strategies to the parlor.

Because players are human they will probably just want to use what is generally considered the "best" set up and will all gravitate toward whatever that is. If it is assault rifles people will still use them even if there are changes made so that in rigorously controlled data gathering type scenarious the assault rifle proves to be inadequate. Heck, even if you give players more and more options they could very well ignore them because people just kind of do things like that. ANd some people will use something that everyone else thinks is crappy, just because they happen to like how it looks...

And if almost everyone is running high damage assault rifle fittings and assault suits then the game becomes COD for those people anyways, no matter what the other choices are, if enough of them do it. Because it will be about who can turn the corner first and get the jump on their opponent or who can chill out and camp a swag hiding spot.

In pub matches.

I disagree that no amount of "meta game" will make a difference if by meta game you mean teamwork and communication between players.

In the end I think there is not too much to worry about. CCP has got your back. There's enough new stuff on the way that the game should remain interesting and fulfilling even if a glut of players go all assault all the time. And from what I have heard of EVE CCP always does a good job of balancing the pure numbers of balance with the murky balance of player choice. And will keep changing things around if the situation you predict would ever happen. Fear not, CCP will keep it fresh. And nerf it to oblivion. Then add flaylock pistols. Then nerf it to oblivion. Then add fighter aircraf. And nerf it to oblivion. Then add Gallente heavy suit...

I was just thinking about this. I am concerned that I am just wasting SP on heavy skills. A proto heavy which is crazy expensive has the same armor and shield as the type 2. That is just silly. I'm going to get torn apart against proto level weapons. "Just use the extra slots for complex shield and armor mods." Great idea, but the other guy will have complex damage mods on his weapons, negating my advantage. I thought it was just heavy suits (some past nerf) until I checked out of curiosity and saw that all suits are like that. It makes no sense. All the suits need a buff. A 10% increase to the base armor and shields per level is a good place to start.

Replication and earlier: Took around 1-2 clips to kill ADV+ suits.

Sorry for the delay on this one, I'm trying to answer questions as they come and the other's were more detrimental to my point.

Six Kin SMG-----(28.875*1000)/60= 481.25DPS Ideal---->(481.25-(481.25*.25))= 360.9375DPS for Scenario

Militia AR---------(38.75*750)/60= 484.375DPS Ideal----->(484.375-(484.375*.1))= 435.9375DPS for Scenario

Duvolle----------- (42.625*750)/60= 532.8125DPS Ideal-->(532.8125-(5328125*.1))= 479.531DPS for Scenario

And yes when i said ALL 5 for EHP that was including the bonus 25% for Shield and Armor. Thanks for waiting.


Also the way i figured damage per round is ((base+(base*.1))+(base*.15)) which has both weapons and proficiency accounted for. I did this instead of (Base+(base*.1))=a (a+(a*15))=Damage per round because of the way weapon mods currently stack. I am almost certain none of this is accurate to the way CCP has their damage algorithm applied. consider this a close assumption.

yep just got out of a match where the only tactic that mattered was rolling around in a giant mob with AR assaults with damage mods, anything else melted in seconds so any other tactic was useless. so my squad rolled an AR assault with damage mods, unfortunately the other team had more so it didn't matter.

In a fight with other set ups you can use MDs or grenades, use an LR/sniper to scatter the mob, you can flank the mob, or just out capture them so they die out and lose support. This is not the case with AR assaults they kill so fast all that matters is who pulls the trigger first, so all you have to do in a fight like that is run a mob and kill every thing, and you win. Its a fine strategy but a game breaking one.

Im not saying team work is op Im saying the mob is OP, teamwork requires a strategy other then Zerg rushing. And the reason the MOB is OP is because damage scales up so drastically, that support rolls, defensive modules, Tactics, and other "gimmicks" become liabilities not force multipliers.

That's a long way of pointing out DPS grows faster, and for cheaper, than EHP. Right now gank and alpha is the way to spec.

That's effectively what i am saying, but i did so with a little self provided number crunching to back up my claim.

HMG's inherent potential and niche is the clip size. Realistically, unless anything drastic happens, dust will boil down to single "ideal" gun choice for a role, like CS did in its day: ak and m4 were pretty much the only used weapons along awp.

The ideal gun for heavies, frankly, is not HMG. Balac's ar is the most likely candidate for me. Comparison of heavies with hmg (which is built to suppress fire) and ar (which is built to quick kill) is, to me, a waste of time. Heavy ar vs. Assault ar is the more logical choice, if you want to get a feel of the end game as it's shaping up atm.

Forgot to say I added +1. Once people start realizing this we can start discussing if this is okay. I dislike it immensely, personally.

Nerf ar damage and limit damage mods to 1 per suit

wait, people still use damage mods? i dropped those a long time ago, you MIGHT kill someone 1 or 2 bullets sooner AT THE VERY MOST

extra shields are much more valuable in my opinion.

That's your opinion, and its not a bad one. However most in the high end would disagree. if you peel off those shield extenders and threw on 2 damage mods i guarantee you will be the more viable in combat. That's 21% more damage on a weapon that does a complex shield extender's worth of damage in less then .2 of a second.

there's supposed to be a stacking penalty so you can't do things like that. I'll try throwing 2 complex mods in my advanced suit and see what happens, maybe my 4.1 KDR will jump into the 5s.

Now on to why i did this. First I wanted a table with which to make reference to current damage of weapons. Second I wanted to point out how grossly inadequate endgame EHP is compared to endgame damage potential.

With that out of the way I can make a "ideal scenario" for a Proto AR assault Vs similarly fit Proto HMG Heavy. This will allow me to give a comparative efficiency rate, (isk/Time to Live(TTL)) for both weapon platforms.

Heavy VK.1 (246,800)
Weapon-Boundless HMG/ none (118,040)
High- AUR Complex Heavy Damage Mod X2, Complex Shield Extender (7920, 80)
Low- Enhanced Armor Rep, Enhanced Shield Regulator (10,880)
Gr- AV (1,920)
Eq- N/A

Dam(DPS/DPS missing1/3 @ 15m)- 25.696( 856.533/ 573.877)
S/A(EHP)- 482/527.5(1009.5)
Price isk/ AUR- 385560 / 80 (We'll just call this 420,000 for the sake of simplicity)
TTL- 1.8025 seconds
isk/TTL- 233009.7isk per second



Assault VK.1 (91,200)
Weapon- Duvolle/ none (53,840)
High- Complex Light Damage Mod X2, Complex Shield Extender X2 ( 18,520)
Low- Complex CPU Extention, Complex Shield Regulator, Basic Armor Rep ( 36,560)
Gr- AV (1,920)
Eq- None (0)

Dam(DPS/DPS missing 1/10 @ 15m)- 49.781( 622.2625/ 560.03625)
S/A(EHP)- 446.25/131.25(577.5)
Price isk/ AUR- 202,040 / 0
TTL- 1.0063 seconds
isk/TTL- 200775.1 isk per second

Not sure if someone said this already but 1.8 sec survivability vs 1.0 something according to the author's calculation is a huge difference in favor of the heavy. in FPS 0.8 seconds is far from trivial. I think, although, he made an excellent post and put a lot of work into the calcs I think his math defeats his thesis. I'd say I favor the performance of the Heavy based on his numbers. As far as the cost is concerned I think it's great to keep things unbalanced for the meta game of territorial control when that actually becomes available. This will give an incentive to ppl to risk more isk (more expensive suit) even for a marginal combat advantage if this means that your corp in the end is able to accomplish an imprortant conquest.

Lastly, I do think that both EHP progression and weapon damage progression have been nerfed too much to not make it worthwhile to buy more expensive stuff. I will say though that even though the suits all have the same hp (approx) as the base model, extra slots are an effective incentive for suit advancement. With weapons though, proto are about the same as militia making them superfluous. I think CCP takes huge swings to and from nerfs instead of little tweaks which makes no sense to me. In the past duvole AR was ridiculously OP compared to base AR, but now it's not at all different. I think there is gotta be a middle ground - I am thinking that advanced weapons should be 12-15% more powerful than militia, and proto 20-25% more powerful than militia - this would probably land things in a reasonable balance

Your math makes a lot of assumptions.The first one being that the AR user only misses 1/10 of his bullets....ok people miss more than that and because of your mobility as a heavy you feel that but scouts and other assaults are a different matter.
15m? really ?so your argument is that the HMG should be a long range weapon.
Put down the part where every thing between you and 15 meters gets melted...instantly.Example turn a corner and boom Hmg heavy...melted.You example is if the heavy is out in the open....which he shouldnt be.Hevies should be in the objectives not out in the open.

Being a closed beta tester I have had the opportunity to see alot of good tactics and alot of chicanery.But the best are when people use there suit as intended..

Scouts cross the field and drop a uplink near the objective letter and before you know it 4 heavies spawn in and its murder time.I would also like to point out that....CHICAGOCUBSFOREVER,HowdthatTaste,BlondieRoads,ExmapleCore,Aldin Kan......All way up on the leaderboards, and all are Heavies.HMG melts people in the short range.

I was one of the people that actually helped to get the Hwss a little better for heavies and reduce the heat build up for HMG's and I dont even play a heavy....but yer not happy with that.People just want to keep on complaining.

This thread hides under the guise that its scientific with scewed/misleading math.This thread in now way draws comparison between the HMG magazine size and the AR's Mag size.

This is just the age old argument of HMG versus AR'S in every shooter.....

Why cant my LMG have the same accuracy,range and weapon handling as the AR?
because you have a larger magazine capacity thats why .....

That's a long way of pointing out DPS grows faster, and for cheaper, than EHP. Right now gank and alpha is the way to spec.

Very true. One of the first things i tell new players is 'Gank grows faster than tank.'

Makes skill training decisions a lot clearer.

And then .8 build rolls out and all this speculation is made moot.

I agree 200%

Volgair, Let's acknowledge this:

1. You wanted to boil some factors down, and come up with some basic metrics whereby you could compare basic EHP vs. DPS figures between suits, and you poured a lot of time and effort into that.

2. In order to do so, you needed to make many assumptions to come up with the numbers with which we could compare, as well as leaving out many other factors in order to focus on just some basic stats. Those assumptions and factors included/not included are up for debate, which everyone is doing a surprisingly civil job of doing

2. (a) my 2 cents, is that different fitting configurations, as well as tactical play, honesty do throw your simplified calculations out of the window....

***************************

I think your point about Assault suits doing the job of killing the most efficiently, in the majority of situations, is correct. Feature Working As IntendedGäó

However, DUST will not just be about KDR, even though if you want to play it like that, go ahead. Many EVE players only play for the killboards.

But in both EVE and DUST, the gameplay is much larger, and a central part of the game will revolve around winning matches for your team, and the other suits, weapons, and playstyles act as force-multipliers which are hugely important for carrying your team to victory. I personally quite like the non-traditional styles of play myself, but realize they are meant to be a compliment to my more effectively-deadly teammates.

Which by no means is conducive to the supposedly unique thought driven game play that dust was supposed to provide.

Out of curiosity, ISK aside, what is the time-to-death in COD? sounds like it's a fraction of the fraction of a second you're talking about, Volgair.

And same question for BF3.

And maybe most illuminating, in HALO?

Ooph, yeah.... I appreciate the curiosity, but I'm not going to touch that one. it would require some dedication and data collection i have no interest in.

You seem to be totally ignoring comments about lasers. Didn't proto laser end up ripping things up at the end of the closed beta?

I'm not a top player but from what I saw, basically achieving HAV dominance is what won matches. AR are useless against a HAV. Heavies are very important to achieving HAV dominance.

If your post is about balancing PUG death matches then sure AR assault is the go to style. Once we actually connect to Eve I think PUG death matches will matter a whole lot less. PUG death matches should not be the standard of how to balance this game. Corp battles should be and tactics are a lot different in corp battles compared to PUG matches.

I will say this though I do support upping the HP of suits. I would enjoy that type of gameplay more.

You seem to be totally ignoring comments about lasers. Didn't proto laser end up ripping things up at the end of the closed beta?

I'm not a top player but from what I saw, basically achieving HAV dominance is what won matches. AR are useless against a HAV. Heavies are very important to achieving HAV dominance.

If your post is about balancing PUG death matches then sure AR assault is the go to style. Once we actually connect to Eve I think PUG death matches will matter a whole lot less. PUG death matches should not be the standard of how to balance this game. Corp battles should be and tactics are a lot different in corp battles compared to PUG matches.

I will say this though I do support upping the HP of suits. I would enjoy that type of gameplay more.

You read my mind.

Stop playing TDM it is not what DUST 514 is going to be.

TDM is for tryhard derp derps who are more focused on KDR than Factional Warfare.

I'm sorry but what was the point again?

A heavy has way more EHP than an Assault suit and both can deal identical damage. The immediate downsides of the heavy suit are cost as well as slower speed and the lack of the utility slot.

Also, heavy suits have a role in that they offer weapons exclusive to it.

- So what was the point again? that HMG's suck, or did I miss anything?

Out of curiosity, ISK aside, what is the time-to-death in COD? sounds like it's a fraction of the fraction of a second you're talking about, Volgair.

And same question for BF3.

And maybe most illuminating, in HALO?

So your proposing to increase EHP for suits across the board and banning advance and proto gear in pug matches.

I don't really think that has anything to do with corp battles but I could get behind both those changes.