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Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
   |
Posted - 2013.02.03 02:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Maybe I'm not reading this right, which is a very real possibility, but the first part of the post seems to indicate that AR users are hitting with 90% accuracy at 15meters? Is that right? That may be the case against heavies for someone with good accuracy, but good luck getting anywhere near 90% accuracy against a scout suit or even a decent assault straffer. This smells strongly of a "nerf AR" thread and tries to use misleading and misguided calculations to back it up.
Also, you're completely ignoring LR, Mass drivers, shotguns, etc etc which can have major impacts on how the other weapons and suits are balanced. Practice doesn't always follow theory. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 03:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Saj T wrote:I'm sorry but what was the point again?
A heavy has way more EHP than an Assault suit and both can deal identical damage. The immediate downsides of the heavy suit are cost as well as slower speed and the lack of the utility slot.
Also, heavy suits have a role in that they offer weapons exclusive to it.
- So what was the point again? that HMG's suck, or did I miss anything?
Seems a bit fishy that "best case" scenario for an HMG is only hitting 66% of their shots, yet somehow AR users are hitting at 90% while both targets are strafing. 
Also, I don't entirely understand how Assault suits are more efficient. They may cost less, but Heavies die less, at least in theory (which is what this post is all about). So it should even out anyway.
Plus, he asks for buffs to scout speed, yet doesn't factor in Shotgun damage--arguably the best scout weapon--into the table. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 03:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Volgair wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Maybe I'm not reading this right, which is a very real possibility, but the first part of the post seems to indicate that AR users are hitting with 90% accuracy at 15meters? Is that right? That may be the case against heavies, but good luck getting anywhere near 90% accuracy against a scout suit or even a decent assault straffer. This smells strongly of a "nerf AR" thread and tries to use misleading and misguided calculations to back it up.
Also, you're completely ignoring LR, Mass drivers, shotguns, etc etc which can have major impacts on how the other weapons and suits are balanced. Practice doesn't always follow theory. I chose the weapons that were commonly used and easy to compare, to elaborate a point. the LAR is hard because it's EM based damage does more to shields, which wouldn't be a problem if CCP would tell us our resistances. The MD is hard because its both a burst and an approximate fire weapon. The SG is hard because its a burst fire weapon. The calculations i am using figures for an ideal situation with unrecoverable loss given as an average. (Think 2 guys standing still at 15m. if there was movement involved i would have used hip fire for the AR, SMG and HMG.) I am not saying "Nerf AR" i like the weapon, and use it often. However I am saying, "Increase our effective hit points relative to current high end damage output, or we will have SPACE COD 514. Where there is only one logical choice and everything else is novelty..."
This is too theoretical and, frankly, inaccurate. If CCP gave accuracy numbers for each character, which I wish they did, you'd find 90% is way too high for AR (even if you could somehow manage to make all your encounters 15m). |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 03:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Volgair wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Volgair wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Maybe I'm not reading this right, which is a very real possibility, but the first part of the post seems to indicate that AR users are hitting with 90% accuracy at 15meters? Is that right? That may be the case against heavies, but good luck getting anywhere near 90% accuracy against a scout suit or even a decent assault straffer. This smells strongly of a "nerf AR" thread and tries to use misleading and misguided calculations to back it up.
Also, you're completely ignoring LR, Mass drivers, shotguns, etc etc which can have major impacts on how the other weapons and suits are balanced. Practice doesn't always follow theory. I chose the weapons that were commonly used and easy to compare, to elaborate a point. the LAR is hard because it's EM based damage does more to shields, which wouldn't be a problem if CCP would tell us our resistances. The MD is hard because its both a burst and an approximate fire weapon. The SG is hard because its a burst fire weapon. The calculations i am using figures for an ideal situation with unrecoverable loss given as an average. (Think 2 guys standing still at 15m. if there was movement involved i would have used hip fire for the AR, SMG and HMG.) I am not saying "Nerf AR" i like the weapon, and use it often. However I am saying, "Increase our effective hit points relative to current high end damage output, or we will have SPACE COD 514. Where there is only one logical choice and everything else is novelty..." This is too theoretical and, frankly, inaccurate. If CCP gave accuracy numbers for each character, which I wish they did, you'd find 90% is way too high for AR (even if you could somehow manage to make all your encounters 15m). I based that on my alt using 2 complex damage mods and a type 2 Assault suit. As it so happened there were plenty of new berries standing about to scope and burn, TTL was about 1.1-1.5 seconds (while strafing) in each case to support my claims.
First off, you should then take into consideration the fact that an HMG can hit multiple targets with one burst of fire.
Secondly, If everyone is just standing still then the HMG should be hitting a lot higher than 66% of its shots.
Thirdly, it would take less than 1.1-1.5 seconds if someone was standing in full view of an HMG of the same calibre (with 2 damage mods) as your AR with the same relative damage mods.
Plus, I think clip size of both the AR and HMG may have something to do with this.
Like I said: all too theoretical.
Quote:The HMG and AR are fine as they are, as is the Assault and Heavy (Scout and Logi need specific attention, see above.) base EHP is too low across the board. I wont say this game should feel like we are firing foam darts. however if something isn't changed the first to fire will win 98% of the time, making this game far less enjoyable then it should be requiring less skill and situation awareness then it should.
If nothing gets changed once folks get into the 10-20mil SP range I will be proven unfortunately correct.
You can't ask for buffs to a suit while ignoring probably its best weapon synergy. A good scout with a shotgun is both incredibly hard to hit and incredibly dangerous. It may not be easy to calculate, but that doesn't make the combo any less viable and deadly.
Also, the Logi is a support role (and suit). It's not really meant as a standalone and thus shouldn't be expected to go toe-to-toe (with regards to damage output or survivability) with an Assault, Heavy, or Scout suit specifically designed to kill people and/or take damage. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 03:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Volgair wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:First, I would like to say good job on taking the time to go through all this.
However, like others have mentioned, 90% is way too high. In some games (like CoD), they actually track your individual weapon accuracy. I'd say the average for ARs is somewhere around 20-40%. I'm willing to bet that Dust is actually lower than that considering aiming is slightly more difficult/clunky in Dust compared to CoD. Dust uses Absolute firing (as opposed to relative that has to factor projectile velocity and bullet drop and weapon inertia (except for the Mass Driver and to a lesser extent Forge Gun)) so if you are, or are not on target at the time when the round is supposed to be que'd for fire it will hit or it wont based on an algorithm that CCP has failed to disclose. (not saying they should) What does that mean? Up scope the AR puts out almost a laser line of bullets. Crouched and in doom mode the HMG and SMG can do almost the same but not quite as accurately based on the algorithm. If on target when the round is fired it will hit, or wont hit the tracer rounds are pretty much for show to aid in the ambiance of the game.
That still doesn't account for actually aiming at moving targets while you're moving, etc. The benefit of the HMG and downside of AR in a real-world (I use the term to refer to a Dust battle in practice) are, ironically, the inverse upsides and downsides you mentioned in theory. The AR is more accurate, and HMG less so, but that also means you have to be more precise when aiming your AR at a moving target, which is exactly why 90% is too high for any real-world scenario. The HMG, on the other hand, has that sort of cylinder of fire that allows you to be a decent bit off but still do moderate damage. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Volgair wrote:@ Parson Atreides
This is 100% opinion based on this game with me at the helm, and admittedly i am better then most, But... Here goes.
HMG Heavy > SG Scout 85% of the time
AR Assault > SG Scout 80% of the time
HMG Heavy > SG Assault 65% of the time
AR Assault > SG Assault 65% of the time
Scouts are broken, they are too thin. If they cant get the jump (and yes the SG requires surprise in both instances.) the assault is far more forgiving, and the scout doesn't have the speed anymore to close the gap or disengage a to seek cover most of the time. This carries over to EVERY weapon be it Swarm Launcher or Scrampler Pistol. Not saying they cant be used to great effect, just that they would be better served to just use an Assault Suit.
With the profile dampening skill, I wouldn't be surprised if a Shotgun scout could be very productive. And that's really what the scout is for, isn't it? If you're seen as a scout, you shouldn't really win the fight if the other guy has gear and a skill level roughly equal to yours--just like if a scout comes up behind you and gets that first shot, you're the one who loses.
Which is sort of the problem I have with Shotgun scouts in general. Either they duck, dodge, and weave through most of your shots, only to miss you 5 times and one-shot you with the sixth round (two rounds, by the way, can be fired in under a second) or I kill them and have almost full shields and armor. It's too polarized for my liking.
Quote:
Logi don't have a sidearm option, less health and move slower then Assaults. I never consider a logi in a 1v1 scenario. They succeed vicariously from their team mates. As they exist, they are focus fired first to easily eliminate the additional DPS, HPS or utility from the field. They need more stay power to effectively act as a force multiplier for the guys they are acting to preserve, aid and maintain.
There are relatively simple ways around that. One is to make sure you're behind or near cover. Another is to learn the always-useful art of bobbing and weaving--the logi suit is relatively fast, so it isn't hard. Another one is to stay behind your squad so that, when the enemy sees you, he has to choose between ignoring the squad shooting at him to try and take down the logi , or going for the other squad members instead.
I wouldn't mind if they got a small buff, but the problem is if/when you see people choosing the logi suit over the Assault suit because you can do basically the same thing, but with more equipment slots. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Volgair wrote:
Its not that hard, strafing and up scope i can keep a bead on some one's dome piece with relative ease. (sure I dont do it 100% of the time but i do it often enough to feel the need to make a thread about it.) Plus my Assault and Heavy has been killed enough times by one person under 2 seconds to know that these numbers are not by any means a stretch. Deny it all you want, it doesn't make it any less true.
Please make a video of you shooting people in the head 90% of the time with the AR while you're both moving, then make a video of how you only manage to hit people with two-thirds of your shots with an HMG. These two don't mesh, in my mind.
Just admit this is a "nerf AR" thread so we can all move on. |
Parson Atreides
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 04:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Volgair wrote:Quote:With the profile dampening skill, I wouldn't be surprised if a Shotgun scout could be very productive. And that's really what the scout is for, isn't it? If you're seen as a scout, you shouldn't really win the fight if the other guy has gear and a skill level roughly equal to yours--just like if a scout comes up behind you and gets that first shot, you're the one who loses. I broke this down numerically in some one else's scout based thread. In the end (all 5) Both Assault and Scout have a smaller profile then can be seen by any current scan resolution (yes that's including scan precision LV 5). making the "but scouts are invisible on radar," argument a moot point.
Then, at best, they need a small buff to dropsuit profile. Making the scouts faster is only going to make the only counter someone has to them (seeing them first) all but meaningless. They tried giving scouts a lot of speed a few builds back and they were just impossible to hit. It made running a Shotgun scout (or really any close-range weapon) face-roll easy.
Either way, night all. |
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