Your completely ignoring the speed of the 2nd type Logisuit.

And yes, scout is broken. A scout can sneak up on a heavy, hit him square in the back, and the heavy will have time to turn and mow him down before he gets a third hit off.

I want about .3-.5 more base speed on scouts.

Dust uses Absolute firing (as opposed to relative that has to factor projectile velocity and bullet drop and weapon inertia (except for the Mass Driver and to a lesser extent Forge Gun)) so if you are, or are not on target at the time when the round is supposed to be que'd for fire it will hit or it wont based on an algorithm that CCP has failed to disclose. (not saying they should)

What does that mean? Up scope the AR puts out almost a laser line of bullets. Crouched and in doom mode the HMG and SMG can do almost the same but not quite as accurately based on the algorithm. If on target when the round is fired it will hit, or wont hit the tracer rounds are pretty much for show to aid in the ambiance of the game.

It's .1 faster then the version with the additional slot and still slower then any Assault. Again, im not trying to be critical of the Assault but "Dem's da numbers."

@ Parson Atreides

This is 100% opinion based on this game with me at the helm, and admittedly i am better then most, But... Here goes.
HMG Heavy > SG Scout 85% of the time
AR Assault > SG Scout 80% of the time
HMG Heavy > SG Assault 65% of the time
AR Assault > SG Assault 65% of the time

Scouts are broken, they are too thin. If they cant get the jump (and yes the SG requires surprise in both instances.) the assault is far more forgiving, and the scout doesn't have the speed anymore to close the gap or disengage a to seek cover most of the time. This carries over to EVERY weapon be it Swarm Launcher or Scrampler Pistol. Not saying they cant be used to great effect, just that they would be better served to just use an Assault Suit.

Logi don't have a sidearm option, less health and move slower then Assaults. I never consider a logi in a 1v1 scenario. They succeed vicariously from their team mates. As they exist, they are focus fired first to easily eliminate the additional DPS, HPS or utility from the field. They need more stay power to effectively act as a force multiplier for the guys they are acting to preserve, aid and maintain.

In warfare, the ability to deal damage has always outpaced the ability to defend against it. It's a law of nature, or else all the predators would have died out long ago.

Your talking about endgame stats here. Well, lets look at them in the hands of endgame players. Because every weapon can kill every suit with minimal differences in TTL, then in the hands of pros, it becomes, not a COD frag fest, but a highly precise tactical game of maneuvering, cover, numbers, flanking, and the all important X factors.

That is something I really like about this game. Everything is OP. In the hands of a real killer, anything will tear you to shreds if your not on your game.

I feel sorry for the scrubs though. Maybe they could use more EHP.

Its not that hard, strafing and up scope i can keep a bead on some one's dome piece with relative ease. (sure I dont do it 100% of the time but i do it often enough to feel the need to make a thread about it.) Plus my Assault and Heavy has been killed enough times by one person under 2 seconds to know that these numbers are not by any means a stretch. Deny it all you want, it doesn't make it any less true.

the proto logi suit with complex kinetic catalyzers is the fastest dropsuit in the game. This is pretty typical for minmatar equipment.

With the profile dampening skill, I wouldn't be surprised if a Shotgun scout could be very productive. And that's really what the scout is for, isn't it? If you're seen as a scout, you shouldn't really win the fight if the other guy has gear and a skill level roughly equal to yours--just like if a scout comes up behind you and gets that first shot, you're the one who loses.

I have seen "end game," and most of my experiences can be boiled down to what i am trying to say. Hell, even now the only reason that the Heavies are viable is because they are markedly more powerful at lower SP levels. A few months from now they will be as laughable as they were at the end of the last build.

we need the other racial basic suits in order for a solid comparison.

I broke this down numerically in some one else's scout based thread. In the end (all 5) Both Assault and Scout have a smaller profile then can be seen by any current scan resolution (yes that's including scan precision LV 5). making the "but scouts are invisible on radar," argument a moot point.

Please make a video of you shooting people in the head 90% of the time with the AR while you're both moving, then make a video of how you only manage to hit people with two-thirds of your shots with an HMG. These two don't mesh, in my mind.

Just admit this is a "nerf AR" thread so we can all move on.

Then, at best, they need a small buff to dropsuit profile. Making the scouts faster is only going to make the only counter someone has to them (seeing them first) all but meaningless. They tried giving scouts a lot of speed a few builds back and they were just impossible to hit. It made running a Shotgun scout (or really any close-range weapon) face-roll easy.

Either way, night all.

it's a stealth "buff heavy and scout proto suits" thread.

because endgame logis are absolutely potent when you specialize them. You can stack four shield extenders and four armor plates, or four reppers, or something equally silly on them.

but heavies are pretty much meat socks at the proto level. seen the end of the last closed beta build. proto logi, scout and assault all over the place in pubmatches.

never saw a single proto heavy.

Assuming I did the calculations correct a basic militia AR with no mods or skills would only do 12.9 DPS less than the sixkin. This is all done by your method, missing 1/10 bullets ect. So I'm wondering if this is the case how will endgame be significantly different than it is now? A fully specced Duvolle will only shave off roughly .25 seconds. You're not including any armor mods are you? Even one of those should easily add .2 seconds on to survivability. Also by looking at the numbers you included the bonuses from shield control and field mechanic already correct?

What does this all mean? This game is on a collision course to being a COD clone just a short few months down the road. AR Assault will be the only logical choice. Every other tactical decision on the battle field will boil down to parlor tricks. (excluding HAV's) If this is allowed to continue. What can be done to fix this?

-Extend the EHP by a factor of 1.8, greatly increase the values of shield and armor modules, or reduce the damage potential by .4.
-Fix the stacking penalty for damage mods.
-This mentioned this briefly before, but MAKE SCOUTS FASTER.
-Increase Logistics EHP to bridge the gap between Assault and Heavy. They cant act as an effective force multiplier if they are a liability.
-Add Roll bonus's to Dropsuit's.

I'm not going to say that this is the only way. I am going to say that if something isn't done soon to radically change this games balance no amount of meta game is going to compensate.

You make many good points and I enjoyed the data. I tend to agree with you and never supported the nerf to dropsuit hp. It could have used some adjustment but the idea of removing HP gains always seemed short sighted. And I have no problem with adding some HP to some different higher tier suits. But make scouts faster (in bold, no less) seems to be a really simplistic proposed solution and not really related to the evidence. WHat do you mean by "faster?" Sprint speed? Strafing speed or speed of lateral movement? Jumping speed? Turning speed? Or just faster in all possible ways that the character model can move?

Also, there is a glaring flaw in your argument. It assumes "best case scenario". And then draws a conclusion about the future of the game but "best case scenario" won't ever actually occur in the game itself.

And it only allows for tactical decision making in terms of micro balance (one v. one gunfights) and relegates any other strategies to the parlor.

Because players are human they will probably just want to use what is generally considered the "best" set up and will all gravitate toward whatever that is. If it is assault rifles people will still use them even if there are changes made so that in rigorously controlled data gathering type scenarious the assault rifle proves to be inadequate. Heck, even if you give players more and more options they could very well ignore them because people just kind of do things like that. ANd some people will use something that everyone else thinks is crappy, just because they happen to like how it looks...

And if almost everyone is running high damage assault rifle fittings and assault suits then the game becomes COD for those people anyways, no matter what the other choices are, if enough of them do it. Because it will be about who can turn the corner first and get the jump on their opponent or who can chill out and camp a swag hiding spot.

In pub matches.

I disagree that no amount of "meta game" will make a difference if by meta game you mean teamwork and communication between players.

In the end I think there is not too much to worry about. CCP has got your back. There's enough new stuff on the way that the game should remain interesting and fulfilling even if a glut of players go all assault all the time. And from what I have heard of EVE CCP always does a good job of balancing the pure numbers of balance with the murky balance of player choice. And will keep changing things around if the situation you predict would ever happen. Fear not, CCP will keep it fresh. And nerf it to oblivion. Then add flaylock pistols. Then nerf it to oblivion. Then add fighter aircraf. And nerf it to oblivion. Then add Gallente heavy suit...

I was just thinking about this. I am concerned that I am just wasting SP on heavy skills. A proto heavy which is crazy expensive has the same armor and shield as the type 2. That is just silly. I'm going to get torn apart against proto level weapons. "Just use the extra slots for complex shield and armor mods." Great idea, but the other guy will have complex damage mods on his weapons, negating my advantage. I thought it was just heavy suits (some past nerf) until I checked out of curiosity and saw that all suits are like that. It makes no sense. All the suits need a buff. A 10% increase to the base armor and shields per level is a good place to start.

Replication and earlier: Took around 1-2 clips to kill ADV+ suits.

Sorry for the delay on this one, I'm trying to answer questions as they come and the other's were more detrimental to my point.

Six Kin SMG-----(28.875*1000)/60= 481.25DPS Ideal---->(481.25-(481.25*.25))= 360.9375DPS for Scenario

Militia AR---------(38.75*750)/60= 484.375DPS Ideal----->(484.375-(484.375*.1))= 435.9375DPS for Scenario

Duvolle----------- (42.625*750)/60= 532.8125DPS Ideal-->(532.8125-(5328125*.1))= 479.531DPS for Scenario

And yes when i said ALL 5 for EHP that was including the bonus 25% for Shield and Armor. Thanks for waiting.


Also the way i figured damage per round is ((base+(base*.1))+(base*.15)) which has both weapons and proficiency accounted for. I did this instead of (Base+(base*.1))=a (a+(a*15))=Damage per round because of the way weapon mods currently stack. I am almost certain none of this is accurate to the way CCP has their damage algorithm applied. consider this a close assumption.