DUST Search - heavy machine gun op or just fine?

semperfi1999 wrote:

Oxskull Duncarino wrote:

semperfi1999 wrote:

I see alot of people noting the HMG is supposed to have good medium range dmg. Seriously?? They are supposed to have the same range of the AR and do more dmg per second more accurately? Playing against a heavy yesterday I was tryin to outrange him on a map where there were not rock I could use to hide behind and get good shots on him. He was doing more dmg to me faster as the most extreme range of my Exile than I could do to him. It was rediculous and led to me having run away and every encounter since my gun could not outdmg or outrange his gun....and with nothing to hide behind I didnt stand a chance. Yes I did kill him more than he killed me but thats mainly because I just ran off and watched till he had no HP from taking on many many allies and then I would pop him....or my teammate would pop him. When you can fire the HMG from C (small 3 letter map that is inside the compound) to A and have better accuracy and dmg than an AR at that range then something is definitely not right. I agree if I run into an HMG in close range I should be pretty screwed. But being screwed when I turn a corner and a heavy is 50 meters away and he can blow my 450ish HP in a second.......something is not quite right.

As stated already, that player more than likely had a lot of SP in heavy weapon sharpshooter. As well, did you notice if they were using the assault HMG. It's got a reduced RPM of 1200(I think) from the regular 2000, but has an extended range.

And that's a massive exaggeration to say that a HMG was hitting from Charlie to Alpha on Manus Peak. It can't!!!

I didnt say manus peak. I dont know the name of the map...sorry. But its the 3 point map that you start outside and you run into an installation that is walled off and has a CRU (small map). Sorry wish I knew the name.

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Ruyan Aldent Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 49	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:01:00 - [31] - Quote Possibly keep the HMG exactly the same just give it a spool up time before it begins to fire. TBH though I dont think the are OP at all and I play assault so it is clear.
rpastry Carbon 7 28	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:09:00 - [32] - Quote its a L2P thing really, I play HMG heavy and I play AR assault and I can kill and be killed both ways. hmg work great in tight spaces - the built up areas, not so good in open maps. standard hmg range is 60m, AR is 80m assault hmg is 80m, tactical AR is 120. AR can keep range and drop a heavy. and remember HMG is a 8 sec reload. (6 fully skilled) also LR is much more effective at 65-80m than AR or assault HMG.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:14:00 - [33] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I see alot of people noting the HMG is supposed to have good medium range dmg. Seriously?? They are supposed to have the same range of the AR and do more dmg per second more accurately? Playing against a heavy yesterday I was tryin to outrange him on a map where there were not rock I could use to hide behind and get good shots on him. He was doing more dmg to me faster as the most extreme range of my Exile than I could do to him. It was rediculous and led to me having run away and every encounter since my gun could not outdmg or outrange his gun....and with nothing to hide behind I didnt stand a chance. Yes I did kill him more than he killed me but thats mainly because I just ran off and watched till he had no HP from taking on many many allies and then I would pop him....or my teammate would pop him. When you can fire the HMG from C (small 3 letter map that is inside the compound) to A and have better accuracy and dmg than an AR at that range then something is definitely not right. I agree if I run into an HMG in close range I should be pretty screwed. But being screwed when I turn a corner and a heavy is 50 meters away and he can blow my 450ish HP in a second.......something is not quite right. As stated already, that player more than likely had a lot of SP in heavy weapon sharpshooter. As well, did you notice if they were using the assault HMG. It's got a reduced RPM of 1200(I think) from the regular 2000, but has an extended range. And that's a massive exaggeration to say that a HMG was hitting from Charlie to Alpha on Manus Peak. It can't!!! I didnt say manus peak. I dont know the name of the map...sorry. But its the 3 point map that you start outside and you run into an installation that is walled off and has a CRU (small map). Sorry wish I knew the name.
KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:15:00 - [34] - Quote SoTa PoP Clone wrote: Skihids wrote: Keep in mind that the fatty carrying the HMG needs his Logi buddy to follow him around if he wants to live long and reload. That means the HMG represents the killing output of about 1.5 people 1 clip of an hmg = 5 dead. Not with heat up. 2-3 tops before you over heat.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:18:00 - [35] - Quote nerf the effective range and it's fine.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:23:00 - [36] - Quote KryptixX wrote: SoTa PoP Clone wrote: Skihids wrote: Keep in mind that the fatty carrying the HMG needs his Logi buddy to follow him around if he wants to live long and reload. That means the HMG represents the killing output of about 1.5 people 1 clip of an hmg = 5 dead. Not with heat up. 2-3 tops before you over heat. Unless you burst fire and manage heat effectively. It's a situational weapon, and one which requires more than just spray-and-pray to succeed, but it's good, and the drawbacks are also appropriate for its strength. I don't personally use the HMG, but I don't have a problem dealing with them.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:24:00 - [37] - Quote Ruyan Aldent wrote: Possibly keep the HMG exactly the same just give it a spool up time before it begins to fire. TBH though I dont think the are OP at all and I play assault so it is clear. I would be ok with this even. Like I said for anyone who is acting liek I dont know what I am doing you have another thing coming. I easily keep a 3-4 KDR average in this game and when I try I do alot better than that and I am usually high up on the WP and kills totals. Dont think I am noob at this game or anything I know how to defend against an HMG and what its weaknesses are supposed to be. The fact that the HMG is so extremely accurate at 60 meters and does so much dmg instantly is rediculous. Yes it needs to be toned down. I would even be ok with a short spool up time. RIght now the HMG is just easy mode. Check out some of the imperfect fatties....they have already noted that the HMG needs some tweaks. I will kill a heavy with a HMG more often then they kill me but that still does not mean that there is not an issue when the HMG has better accuracy at range with almost identical AR range. Note this post on tests that were done: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476868#post476868
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:35:00 - [38] - Quote the HMG is something you use if you want to get skill free kills. it takes zero time to spool up and with bursting it you can get 35-1 for very little cost. heavy suits cost only a fraction more than assault suits and the HMG is practically free for what it does.
fahrenheitM Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:43:00 - [39] - Quote Necrodermis wrote: the HMG is something you use if you want to get skill free kills. it takes zero time to spool up and with bursting it you can get 35-1 for very little cost. heavy suits cost only a fraction more than assault suits and the HMG is practically free for what it does. The same could be said for having a tank on the field. it's ez mode in a well fit tank and the person knows how to use it. There's more to this game than simply having two AR's pointing at each other. Against N00bs, a heavy is great because they all just sit in front of hte heavy and try to take it down. Against good teams, not even close. Heavies have so many vulnerabilities that can be exploited, smart players can take away their advantages quite easily. It's called balance. The heavy is good at some things, and suck at others... Can't have every class be like assault. It's good the way it is... except for the high end damage\accuracy at Max range... that needs to have just a bit less accuracy... have it gradually diminish the further out it goes.
Barnabas Wrex Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 149	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:44:00 - [40] - Quote You just have to play smart against a heavy HMG and you'll win... If you don't want to play smart perk into heavy HMG. This is the difference.

Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:46:00 - [41] - Quote fahrenheitM wrote: Necrodermis wrote: the HMG is something you use if you want to get skill free kills. it takes zero time to spool up and with bursting it you can get 35-1 for very little cost. heavy suits cost only a fraction more than assault suits and the HMG is practically free for what it does. The same could be said for having a tank on the field. it's ez mode in a well fit tank and the person knows how to use it. There's more to this game than simply having two AR's pointing at each other. Against N00bs, a heavy is great because they all just sit in front of hte heavy and try to take it down. Against good teams, not even close. Heavies have so many vulnerabilities that can be exploited, smart players can take away their advantages quite easily. It's called balance. The heavy is good at some things, and suck at others... Can't have every class be like assault. It's good the way it is... except for the high end damage\accuracy at Max range... that needs to have just a bit less accuracy... have it gradually diminish the further out it goes. a tank also has costs to it. while the heavy suit is pretty dirt cheap. the heavy suit should cost 3x times as much as a assault suit.
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 41	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:47:00 - [42] - Quote We went through this 2 builds ago when the HMG had dmg at 20-23.5 and a cyclic of 3000 RPM so CCP adjusted it to the current 16-17.6 dmg but a cyclic of 1500 RPM and nearly doubled the heat buildup. For the current build they upgraded the cyclic to 2000 RPM and left damage were it's at now and slightly reduced the heat buildup. So we went from one end of the spectrum to the other and we're now just south of the middle, just a tad IMHO. I feel a lot of issues come from the fact a lot of the current fighting is in close quarters leaning heavily in favour of the heavy (LOL) certainly in more open maps I die a lot more to accurate fire from quick moving Assault troops. Also just a suggestion but rather than all the Nerf threads why not have a Buff thread as in this case the AR guys not liking the HMG range, maybe you could ask for a couple more meters from CCP? Because let's face it the in game weapons are quite short ranged compared to their RL counterparts. Regards Snag
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:51:00 - [43] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Ruyan Aldent wrote: Possibly keep the HMG exactly the same just give it a spool up time before it begins to fire. TBH though I dont think the are OP at all and I play assault so it is clear. I would be ok with this even. Like I said for anyone who is acting liek I dont know what I am doing you have another thing coming. I easily keep a 3-4 KDR average in this game and when I try I do alot better than that and I am usually high up on the WP and kills totals. Dont think I am noob at this game or anything I know how to defend against an HMG and what its weaknesses are supposed to be. The fact that the HMG is so extremely accurate at 60 meters and does so much dmg instantly is rediculous. Yes it needs to be toned down. I would even be ok with a short spool up time. RIght now the HMG is just easy mode. Check out some of the imperfect fatties....they have already noted that the HMG needs some tweaks. I will kill a heavy with a HMG more often then they kill me but that still does not mean that there is not an issue when the HMG has better accuracy at range with almost identical AR range. Note this post on tests that were done: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476868#post476868 Actually the max range of the HMG is 60 meters, so it can't be doing any damage at all at that range. It's damage at 50 meters is close to nothing as well. So if the HMG is killing you easily at 60 meters the user has several levels of sharpshooter, and there's nothing stopping you from getting the same on your AR.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:58:00 - [44] - Quote fahrenheitM wrote: Necrodermis wrote: the HMG is something you use if you want to get skill free kills. it takes zero time to spool up and with bursting it you can get 35-1 for very little cost. heavy suits cost only a fraction more than assault suits and the HMG is practically free for what it does. The same could be said for having a tank on the field. it's ez mode in a well fit tank and the person knows how to use it. There's more to this game than simply having two AR's pointing at each other. Against N00bs, a heavy is great because they all just sit in front of hte heavy and try to take it down. Against good teams, not even close. Heavies have so many vulnerabilities that can be exploited, smart players can take away their advantages quite easily. It's called balance. The heavy is good at some things, and suck at others... Can't have every class be like assault. It's good the way it is... except for the high end damage\accuracy at Max range... that needs to have just a bit less accuracy... have it gradually diminish the further out it goes. See I can agree with this getting an accuracy nerf or a range nerf would probably balance out this weapon well. I dont want it to be useless I u/s when it should have the advantage and when I should lose. Its just needs some tweaks....just like the laser.
EKH0 0ne RestlessSpirits 0	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:01:00 - [45] - Quote The Heavy is OP, I play alot of FPS games and this is the only one where you can survive being shot in the back of the head with half a magazine, do a 360 with a minigun and kill the guy shooting you. Its redicoulus. 3/4 players are a heavy class because of this. I am thinking of switching myself
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:20:00 - [46] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I see alot of people noting the HMG is supposed to have good medium range dmg. Seriously?? They are supposed to have the same range of the AR and do more dmg per second more accurately? Playing against a heavy yesterday I was tryin to outrange him on a map where there were not rock I could use to hide behind and get good shots on him. He was doing more dmg to me faster as the most extreme range of my Exile than I could do to him. It was rediculous and led to me having run away and every encounter since my gun could not outdmg or outrange his gun....and with nothing to hide behind I didnt stand a chance. Yes I did kill him more than he killed me but thats mainly because I just ran off and watched till he had no HP from taking on many many allies and then I would pop him....or my teammate would pop him. When you can fire the HMG from C (small 3 letter map that is inside the compound) to A and have better accuracy and dmg than an AR at that range then something is definitely not right. I agree if I run into an HMG in close range I should be pretty screwed. But being screwed when I turn a corner and a heavy is 50 meters away and he can blow my 450ish HP in a second.......something is not quite right. As stated already, that player more than likely had a lot of SP in heavy weapon sharpshooter. As well, did you notice if they were using the assault HMG. It's got a reduced RPM of 1200(I think) from the regular 2000, but has an extended range. And that's a massive exaggeration to say that a HMG was hitting from Charlie to Alpha on Manus Peak. It can't!!! I didnt say manus peak. I dont know the name of the map...sorry. But its the 3 point map that you start outside and you run into an installation that is walled off and has a CRU (small map). Sorry wish I knew the name. My bad. I didn't read the bit where you said small 3 letter map that is inside the compound. I don't know how as it's fairly clear now I don't know what the Dusters name is for that map. That's not a massive distance that you're talking about. I presume it's the corridor/channel/passage that runs from beside Charlie straight up the stairs and into Alpha with the supply depot just down to your left from the top of the stairs. That's a short distance and very much in the basic HMG optimum range, which, as Musta's test results are still accurate, is 1-34m
4447 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 650	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:29:00 - [47] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Many people who use the gun dont want to see it changed as they state its not a good weapon. In truth its a death machine. Its accuracy it awesome at distance. At range it has been proven to be more effective at ~60ish?? meters than the AR is. Heavies who are unbiased admit that the gun needs some adjusting. Either the accuracy at distance needs to be changed or the range needs to be changed. "It's accuracy is awesome at distance", What game are you playing? What a troll.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:32:00 - [48] - Quote EKH0 0ne wrote: The Heavy is OP, I play alot of FPS games and this is the only one where you can survive being shot in the back of the head with half a magazine, do a 360 with a minigun and kill the guy shooting you. Its redicoulus. 3/4 players are a heavy class because of this. I am thinking of switching myself Don't bother switching. You see everyone in a heavy now because with base skills and gear only the heavy absolutely dominates the assault class. That will change as more people get more SP and better gear. Same thing happened last build where there was about 2 weeks where half of any team was heavies but after a little bit they all went away. Unless you actually want to run a heavy any SP you spend will be wasted in about 1-2 weeks when they start getting easy to kill. EDIT: They're also very expensive so you'll be wasting ISK too.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 93	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:39:00 - [49] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: I agree Lasers and HMGs both need tweaks...NOT NERFS but tweaks.... Make Lasers either overheat alot faster or not gain that much dmg for continuous fire. Fixing the HMG range would significantly improve things. I agree sota. This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And I'm one of those damnable heavy players. To be perfectly honest, the biggest buff to heavy/HMG was the redone, tighter Ambush maps. They have plenty of cover, and almost every fight is toe-to-toe. HMG wet dream, no matter how much you nerf its range. Opening those maps up a bit more would expose Heavies to more long-range fire, whereas faster suits could cover the open ground better. The Heavy suit drawbacks feel much more severe in Skirmish battles, to the point that I'm playing Logi or Assault about half the time. You just don't see as many Heavy players in Skirmish as you do in Ambush, either. (Just the dedicated ones, more often than not. I know most of you true fellow fatties by sight now.) EDIT: Altina McAlterson wrote: That will change as more people get more SP and better gear. Same thing happened last build where there was about 2 weeks where half of any team was heavies but after a little bit they all went away. Unless you actually want to run a heavy any SP you spend will be wasted in about 1-2 weeks when they start getting easy to kill. Yes. That's my memory from the last build as well. The numbers didn't really change for HMG between the wipe and changing servers. But at low SP it feels more powerful. We'll be back to everyone running GEK Assaults before you know it. (And for some reason, when everyone plays that there isn't a peep about it being unbalanced.)
The Real Drazar Mercs Inc. 10	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:59:00 - [50] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: SoTa PoP Clone wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Many people who use the gun dont want to see it changed as they state its not a good weapon. In truth its a death machine. Its accuracy it awesome at distance. At range it has been proven to be more effective at ~60ish?? meters than the AR is. Heavies who are unbiased admit that the gun needs some adjusting. Either the accuracy at distance needs to be changed or the range needs to be changed. It's the range honestly. Or maybe the spread isn't hard enough at a distance. I find I can take out targets at almost the same range as when I was in AR - the only problem is if I try to fight at that distance I'm more likely to lose. If an HMG guy knows the terrain and how to get in just a bit closer he's going to shred your world. But I see lasers drop people faster then any HMG so I've mixed feelings. I agree Lasers and HMGs both need tweaks...NOT NERFS but tweaks.... Make Lasers either overheat alot faster or not gain that much dmg for continuous fire. Fixing the HMG range would significantly improve things. I agree sota. Ya as a heavy i can see that lasers could use a small tweak with the over heating 15% increase and ya a small tweak to the hmg range maybe 15% reduction to range. but then i use a forge gun almost as much as my hmg

semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:13:00 - [51] - Quote EKH0 0ne wrote: The Heavy is OP, I play alot of FPS games and this is the only one where you can survive being shot in the back of the head with half a magazine, do a 360 with a minigun and kill the guy shooting you. Its redicoulus. 3/4 players are a heavy class because of this. I am thinking of switching myself I dont think the Heavy is OP. Its fine with the job it performs. However the distance for the HMG is the only thing I think they need a tweak on.
Panoscape BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 107	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:20:00 - [52] - Quote The heavy and the HMG are fine. One has to skill into sharpshooter to get good range with it.
Branosh Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:11:00 - [53] - Quote My only issue with the HMG isn't really an issue with the gun itself. It is an issue with the spawn system in Ambush. I forget the name of the map but on the desert map with the platform in the middle a heavy will always sit up there and rain unstoppable death upon anyone who happens to spawn near it.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 254	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:13:00 - [54] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: EKH0 0ne wrote: The Heavy is OP, I play alot of FPS games and this is the only one where you can survive being shot in the back of the head with half a magazine, do a 360 with a minigun and kill the guy shooting you. Its redicoulus. 3/4 players are a heavy class because of this. I am thinking of switching myself Don't bother switching. You see everyone in a heavy now because with base skills and gear only the heavy absolutely dominates the assault class. That will change as more people get more SP and better gear. Same thing happened last build where there was about 2 weeks where half of any team was heavies but after a little bit they all went away. Unless you actually want to run a heavy any SP you spend will be wasted in about 1-2 weeks when they start getting easy to kill. EDIT: They're also very expensive so you'll be wasting ISK too. This is true. Heavies dominate start of every reset. But the assault class dominates mid to end of every reset. Why? Because assault b series/proto is WAY better than heavy b series/proto. Edit1: Proto heavy needs more slots Edit 2: the HMG could use a faster heat build up. But i don't think a range nerf is needed. Because knowing CCP.... They'll over nerf it.
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER TeamPlayers 117	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:22:00 - [55] - Quote SoTa PoP Clone wrote: Skihids wrote: Keep in mind that the fatty carrying the HMG needs his Logi buddy to follow him around if he wants to live long and reload. That means the HMG represents the killing output of about 1.5 people 1 clip of an hmg = 5 dead. at close range yes, at the range people are talking about here... no way... if lucky 3 kills in a clip at mid range.. sure it has a high fire rate, but crap accuracy at distance. sharpshooter improves this, but you really dont see a huge different until you get into mid level proficiency. low level sharpshooter allows for damage at greater distance, and the low hp scout is gonna get burned as long as u can hit it, but most others it takes a LOT of bullets to make a dent in their armor. plus i think we've gone over this countless times in other threads... no need to regurgitate the fact that some ppl are simply oblivious to a tank 5 feet to their left and them expecting not to get mowed over...
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:23:00 - [56] - Quote i only go 10-1 + every game because half the people it chews up RUN STRAIGHT TOWARDS ME or STRAIGHT AWAY. Derp. Against pros, it usually goes down pretty hard because the heavy suit is an easy to hit target as long as you avoid their field of view. Forge gun on the other hand is OP as hell.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 254	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:25:00 - [57] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: i only go 10-1 + every game because half the people it chews up RUN STRAIGHT TOWARDS ME or STRAIGHT AWAY. Derp. Against pros, it usually goes down pretty hard because the heavy suit is an easy to hit target as long as you avoid their field of view. Forge gun on the other hand is OP as hell. I was about to give like... But then you brought up forge guns.......
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:25:00 - [58] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Many people who use the gun dont want to see it changed as they state its not a good weapon. In truth its a death machine. Its accuracy it awesome at distance. At range it has been proven to be more effective at ~60ish?? meters than the AR is. Heavies who are unbiased admit that the gun needs some adjusting. Either the accuracy at distance needs to be changed or the range needs to be changed. It was better with higher damage and more spread. it gave us a clearly defined ideal CQC range, in which we were 100% area denial. And it took many SP to extend out to AR range. However having said that i can kill just as fast with my AR alt and maintain the same KDR at 1/3 the cost, but I'm a bit better then most. certainly not as good as some.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:34:00 - [59] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: i only go 10-1 + every game because half the people it chews up RUN STRAIGHT TOWARDS ME or STRAIGHT AWAY. Derp. Against pros, it usually goes down pretty hard because the heavy suit is an easy to hit target as long as you avoid their field of view. Forge gun on the other hand is OP as hell. I was about to give like... But then you brought up forge guns....... Well, the forge is only op in one way. Me and Enigma had a discussion about it the other day. It needs to be able to harass vehicles at range, but should do most of its damage up close. Would prefer a falloff range on it, so heavies actually have to expose themselves more to use it properly. I've played as a tanker and forge AV before, and feel its close to being balanced perfectly, just needs a slight tweek. At the very very least, it needs it splash damage to infantry to be toned down.
Cosorvin DUST University Ivy League 45	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:36:00 - [60] - Quote NO, its not OP. Its only OP when idiots charge you head on trying to melee you (personal experience when making the map a blood bath) In fact it might be a little underpowered due to poor accuracy up to normal ranged put into most guns. (Scratch the short range part, I happened to use a burst heavy machine gun at that time. )



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