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The viability of a Dust candidate on the CSM

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Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2013.01.25 03:01:00 - [1] - Quote Looking at the results of last year's election - http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/24/eve-onlines-seventh-csm-results-are-in/ The minimum number of votes went to win a seat as "Council Alternate: 1,282 votes" I know we have a few Eve alts scattered around but it's really unclear if its enough to actually make even 1/2 this number. The Eve players themselves don't care at all about Dust 514 at this point. This leaves it really unlikely that this is a viable strategy. Perhaps a Dust Council of Planetary Management? I do feel like it's in all our interests to get some form of player representation to CCP. It's obvious from recent events that, while they are trying harder, they are very disconnected from what's going on with the player base.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.25 06:51:00 - [2] - Quote Dust doesn't need its own council. That's one of the worst ideas that keeps cropping up. It just needs one or two people on the current CSM when the time is right.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 788	Posted - 2013.01.25 08:01:00 - [3] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Dust doesn't need its own council. That's one of the worst ideas that keeps cropping up. It just needs one or two people on the current CSM when the time is right. I disagree. While connected, the two games are not the same. The CSM summits are already packed trying to condense tons of subjects into just a couple days for Eve. Neither game would get sufficient attention or time if they had to accomodate both in the same summit. Both games have things that need to be discussed with CCP and given proper attention. A joint council cannot do that. Dust CSM dudes could maybe pop in via Lync if the Eve CSM folks are discussing the link, and the opposite is true for Eve CSM if they are talking about stuff that affects Eve. I personally feel that Dust should have it's own representative body that reports to CCP Shanghai. And while I feel this is absolutely necessary, I want to make it clear that I have no intention on running for such a body. (Unless I feel the people running would do more harm than good, but with the people we have in this community I highly doubt I would need to do this, and would not want to.)
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.25 08:07:00 - [4] - Quote I disagree. The mechanics of one game too greatly influences the other. it's true the two games genres are too far a part for any reasonable meeting to occur for both parties about mechanics - but there's a lot of other issues involved. Besides - we don't need a full seat of council for what we just have - which is almost nothing. Even if we get 10 new toys, the infinite maps, and more to our menus and options plus PvE modes and game modes - there's nothing for more then 2-3 people to truly discuss with CCP. It'll be a good while before we get enough content for more then that. Maybe 4 years from now a split between councils will be needed - but what do I know?
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 788	Posted - 2013.01.25 08:32:00 - [5] - Quote Sure, SoTa. We might not need a full blown 12 player council yet. But Dust is always going to have a minority seat on any Eve council. Anyone expecting otherwise has unreasonable expectations. The point of the CSM is to bring player issues directly to CCP and have a few players get a bit more involved in the whole design decision making process. The Eve CSM will rightfully always be more inclined to dedicate their time and resources to issues in Eve. The same should be true with Dust. As far as the election process goes.. I'm not entirely convinced that 'popular vote' would be the best way to go as far as who is an eligible candidate, considering the amount of 'zerg clans' we have it'd be too easy to get someone who wouldn't be constructive on the ballot. I wouldn't mind players voting for people they think is best... But it might not be a bad idea if CCP chose the people they'd like to work with as far as who gets on the ballot in the first place. This would allow the people who've stepped up in the community to make it better and posted good stuff for a long time. People who've been posting reasonable feedback and had logical discussions, willing to admit if/when they are wrong and not afraid to suggest nerfs to their favorite toy. (People like Skytt, Mobius Wyvern, Deadpool, and SoTa PoP just to name a few in what is a pretty decent list of names)
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.25 08:44:00 - [6] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Dust doesn't need its own council. That's one of the worst ideas that keeps cropping up. It just needs one or two people on the current CSM when the time is right. this. I'd run, but I'm Unknown, I'm not up on everything one would need to, and I'd have to run on a platform literally composed of "Vote for me so I can drive the Devs Crazy for the hell of it."
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2013.01.25 09:08:00 - [7] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: I disagree. The mechanics of one game too greatly influences the other. it's true the two games genres are too far a part for any reasonable meeting to occur for both parties about mechanics - but there's a lot of other issues involved. Besides - we don't need a full seat of council for what we just have - which is almost nothing. Even if we get 10 new toys, the infinite maps, and more to our menus and options plus PvE modes and game modes - there's nothing for more then 2-3 people to truly discuss with CCP. It'll be a good while before we get enough content for more then that. Maybe 4 years from now a split between councils will be needed - but what do I know? This is a complicated issue. 1 - While I agree that it's unlikely that we will initially need a 12 man council (way too many personalities). The Eve CSM is actually plagued with an issue there though. Of the 12 elected, it's pretty established that only 4-5 will actually do ANYTHING. Something to consider :P, they elect 12 just to get 4-5 that actually accomplish anything.... 2 - Look at these figures [db]Global is tracking: 629,259 mercenaries! Dust 514 is arriving. We need some form of representation, SOON. 3 - Eve definitely has more variety in the number of issues that the CSM deals with. Eve is 10 years old and has more of an open world with a variety of professions, Dust 514 has really only a variety of player competencies and classes to address. 4 - If we only get 2 seats on the existing CSM. That's only 2 votes and only 2 voices. If the Eve side doesn't like the changes we want in the Eve-Dust Link, we just lose? Some issues to think about it.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.25 09:45:00 - [8] - Quote There isn't any reason Dust should be represented on the CSM at this point. It is almost completely separate from EVE. They may as well be completely separate for how little their connection matters at this point. As such, the opinion of Dust players is entirely irrelevant to the big picture, because Dust is irrelevant. Telcontar Dunedain wrote: 4 - If we only get 2 seats on the existing CSM. That's only 2 votes and only 2 voices. If the Eve side doesn't like the changes we want in the Eve-Dust Link, we just lose? The EVE-Dust link is a fantasy at this point. It's superficial and unimportant. CCP has its plans for how to connect the two. Those plans will take shape sometime after the game is released, apparently. I don't believe the input of random Dust people chosen by popularity on the forums ought to be able to influence CCP's plans at all at this point. In a couple years, when the Dust-EVE link becomes substantial and Dust figures emerge which are involved in the nullsec aspect of Dust to a similar extent that a prominent EVE CEO might, then maybe CCP could benefit from soliciting the opinion of Dust representatives. But right now, all any of us could offer is a ******, uneducated opinion that wouldn't have the benefit of really understanding what CCP's vision for the game is, specifically. You can't expect such people to be telling CCP what to do with the game.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.25 10:13:00 - [9] - Quote And furthermore, given that the CSM exists to serve EVE currently I'd say that anyone who plays Dust and has no significant EVE presence doesn't deserve to be on the CSM in the first place. If you are just some console FPS player who is popular on these forums or belongs to a big corp and could get a lot of votes, you have no place being on a council that helps to affect the course of EVE's development.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 165	Posted - 2013.01.25 10:33:00 - [10] - Quote My csm pitch would be to make the skyfire cannon insta pop a supercapital/titan on planet perimeter of 0.5au every 15 minutes. Dust would matter in eve politics instantly.


ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 136	Posted - 2013.01.25 11:03:00 - [11] - Quote tbh I feel that (ofc depending on how Dust actually turns out after beta) will greatly affect the CSM as well and if Dust has the impact we hope for, CSM will need to take it into considerations as well. And this will be very important should CCP ever think about placing Dust on the non-console market. As for Dust and CSM right now, I think it is a bit too early, but I am certain that there are CSM candidates that will have both worlds in mind, if not when ground forces mess up those PI installations they will be forced to think about the effects that Dust have /c

Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.01.25 12:47:00 - [12] - Quote to those saying it's too early for dust representatives: you definitely shouldn't think of running for csm if you think this. even though dust was in closed beta - it still needed community representatives to help manage CCP in how they take the advice of the community. How many times did we say "WTF did that get put in?" in every build? How many duplicate threads were needed to be created to get acknowledgement only to get something completely irrelevant brought up in feedback? The forums are a complete mishmash of ideas and sifting through the hay for the gems is no nice task. We need that community direction to point CCP to the core matters the community finds at that given point. Closed / Open / Launch is irrelevant, those requirements are now and will help shape the game to an "Acceptable standard at the given point in time". We have all seen the threads "after x amount of time I was expecting more"; this is because a lot of unnecessary changes were done, they may have been minor or quick fixes, but leave a general consensus that focus was not on the key issues. I'm not saying CCP is incompetent in any shape or form, but when they take the advice of the community, it's always heavy handed with a side order of extra function to make it worse. We are open beta now, each change CCP makes is critical as we all know how the FPS community reacts when something doesn't go as planned. They've said they want a dust representative... but I'm hearing that the only way is to vote through eve and I think shad was doing this wrong. trying to get onto the eve csm to influence dust is completely the wrong way to go about it. not only are you using the EVE audience (who are not the primary audience here) but are also taking out a valuable EVE player and replacing with someone who has no interest in eve for the little discussion they have with dust. It needs to be wholly dust, voted by the dust community via dust mediums. anything else isn't a fair representation. I know this isn't really what csm is used for and from reading previous minutes it's more of a "here is what we are doing" and people say yes or no, but I'm hoping CCP makes a more refined approach with dust, in how they take the communities opinion and I hope who ever does take on the role, focuses on the communities interests and tries to push that through.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.25 13:02:00 - [13] - Quote Though it could complicated and messy. It may make sense to create a bicameral style representative body. In which there are two CSM one for EVE one for DUST of players, then either among those players or additional players(who play both games) are elected to a third body or has equal representation of DUST/EVE exclusive players. This way you have CSM working on addressing individual community issues and then a body that has understanding of the meta game and interplay between both worlds and can advocate/address cross-platform issues/ideas.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.01.25 13:13:00 - [14] - Quote I'd be surprised if the CSM reps don't have DUST accounts. If not, it's sure to become more common. DUST raises an interesting issue in terms of voting. With DUST accounts being free people can just make alt account after alt account to vote for the candidate they want.
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2013.01.25 13:31:00 - [15] - Quote @ Alan CSM members do have Dust Accounts, but none of them really use them except for Hans shown here Since he is not running this coming CSM, we will lose his support for DUST. All other Candidates so far in the running don't care about DUST ether and CCP will have to teach them about it at the summits just as they already have. Quote: We are already hard at work on the next expansion where you will see things like player owned districts, tighter economic integration and more incentives for EVE characters and corporations to take part in the politics, logistics and outcomes of DUST 514 battles. The design teams will be working with the CSM this year to make sure these plans sit well with capsuleers and mercenaries alike. Link HERE Two Step from the CSM Quote: As I said in the 10 or 12 other "DUST should be on the CSM" threads, you guys are way premature. How about you let CCP finish getting DUST out the door first, and see how many people are playing DUST 6 months or so after release. Seleene- Chairmen of the CSM Quote: Now, I have no idea what has or has not been said by other CSM members, but I'll just say this plainly - CCP is not even THINKING about a DUST CSM. At. All. "Yeah, maybe we will do that one day." is literally it. We on the CSM have asked about it and that's the answer we've gotten for two years now. Let me also clarify one other thing - DUST isn't even a real game yet. It's a thing in beta that may or may not be released in the next 6-12 months, at which point it will have to cross a lot of lines before CCP considers funding a whole other group of nerds to fly to Iceland. I hope DUST makes a billion dollars and is solid gold, but right now it's still vaporware and CCP isn't yet looking at it as something that needs specific player representation on the level EVE does with the CSM. Link HERE Understand this, we are alone in 2013. One thread here or one Nova Knife there chatting with some CCP guy won't change it ether. We are not organized, we are not loud enough and from space they cannot hear us scream.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.25 14:01:00 - [16] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: @ Alan CSM members do have Dust Accounts, but none of them really use them except for Hans shown here Since he is not running the coming CSm though we will lose his support for DUST. All other Candidates so far in the running don't care about DUST ether and CCP will have to teach them about it at the summits just as they already have. Quote: We are already hard at work on the next expansion where you will see things like player owned districts, tighter economic integration and more incentives for EVE characters and corporations to take part in the politics, logistics and outcomes of DUST 514 battles. The design teams will be working with the CSM this year to make sure these plans sit well with capsuleers and mercenaries alike. Link HERE Two Step from the CSM Quote: As I said in the 10 or 12 other "DUST should be on the CSM" threads, you guys are way premature. How about you let CCP finish getting DUST out the door first, and see how many people are playing DUST 6 months or so after release. Seleene- Chairmen of the CSM Quote: Now, I have no idea what has or has not been said by other CSM members, but I'll just say this plainly - CCP is not even THINKING about a DUST CSM. At. All. "Yeah, maybe we will do that one day." is literally it. We on the CSM have asked about it and that's the answer we've gotten for two years now. Let me also clarify one other thing - DUST isn't even a real game yet. It's a thing in beta that may or may not be released in the next 6-12 months, at which point it will have to cross a lot of lines before CCP considers funding a whole other group of nerds to fly to Iceland. I hope DUST makes a billion dollars and is solid gold, but right now it's still vaporware and CCP isn't yet looking at it as something that needs specific player representation on the level EVE does with the CSM. Link HERE Understand this, we are alone in 2013. One thread here or one Nova Knife there chatting with some CCP guy won't change it ether. We are not organized, we are not loud enough and from space they cannot hear us scream. Weren't you running for CSM this time yesterday ! Lol. I've said much to the same tune when these DUST CSM posts started months back ... yes it will be needed eventually, but for the time being at least trying to make sure some of the Eve CSM have a good handle on DUST and are heavily involved in Eve will provide enough weight to this side of the debates. Perhaps CCP could include it in the voting, one vote for CSM and one vote for DUST/Eve candidates ... then the council can be made with 2 or 3 of them having a DUST interest too.
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2013.01.25 14:19:00 - [17] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Weren't you running for CSM this time yesterday ! Lol. I've said much to the same tune when these DUST CSM posts started months back ... yes it will be needed eventually, but for the time being at least trying to make sure some of the Eve CSM have a good handle on DUST and are heavily involved in Eve will provide enough weight to this side of the debates. Perhaps CCP could include it in the voting, one vote for CSM and one vote for DUST/Eve candidates ... then the council can be made with 2 or 3 of them having a DUST interest too. It was my platform, but look this "Perhaps" or "Maybe" crap is not going to happen. If you want it and I mean WANT IT! Then throw out your "Maybe" and tell them Strait. CCP I WANT DUST IN THE CSM! Around 600,000 Mercs, over 200,000 PSN Accounts still isn't enough I guess. Over a month ago there was around 7 DUST Mercs all wanting to run for CSM, why isn't anyone asking "Where are they now?" Post #15
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2013.01.25 14:26:00 - [18] - Quote People here say we are alone. I say we are only alone if we DO NOT stand up and say we deserve this. If you agree with the current CSM, and EVE Players and bow to the so-called 'inevitable' DUST will NEVER be represented on the CSM. Yes even some members of the CSM say this interaction is NEEDED. Or at least, wanted! One thing we should be standing up for is our right to be represented on the CSM. CCP is WAITING for us to do this. They aren't denying us the right to run, they're waiting for us to say 'here we are, we want a representative!'. Allow EVE players to direct the course of DUST? Of course not! A representative on the CSM will affect the way DUST is developed. Even BEFORE release, our voice needs to be heard, and the CSM is but one avenue! I have previously stated my intention to run for CSM8. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53193&find=unread Here is my DUST CSM8 Topic, and in it, is linked my EVE Forums Candidacy Post. A Vote for me, is a Vote for represenation, the willingness to stand up and say, "WE SHOULD HAVE THIS!" and above all, a Larger Universe! Get behind me, and we will have a candiate on the CSM. Read the CSM Minutes. DUST is there, discussed by EVE players, not DUST players, Is that really what you want? Some space egg determining where you'll be able to fight? Determining WHAT you'll be able to fight for? Rally to the cause, cast your support behind me, and we can show CCP this is something we want, and we will be heard! The Black Jackal aka Hunter Blake!
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:25:00 - [19] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: to those saying it's too early for dust representatives: you definitely shouldn't think of running for csm if you think this. even though dust was in closed beta - it still needed community representatives to help manage CCP in how they take the advice of the community. How many times did we say "WTF did that get put in?" in every build? How many duplicate threads were needed to be created to get acknowledgement only to get something completely irrelevant brought up in feedback? You're completely missing the purpose of the CSM. The EVE CSMs are there because EVE is really complex, and it became apparent that the idea of what players want from EVE according to the CCP devs and the players themselves began to diverge. CSM helps keep things on track, helps ensure the major issues from a player's perspective are being recognized, and so on. Dust, right now, is not complex. It's complex for a FPS game, but it's simply compared to EVE. Furthermore, it's unfinished to a large extent. CCP knows the kind of game they're making. They have experienced FPS developers working on this game. They do not need some random Internet person whose only chops are popularity on these forums or wherever to start telling them how to make this game. When Dust is several years past release, and things start getting complex as it further connects to EVE and its features become more expansive, then CCP might benefit from having a player or two to represent the interests of the nullsec Dust community. But until then, you need to recognize just how far out of your depth you'd be to start instructing CCP on this game.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:57:00 - [20] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Weren't you running for CSM this time yesterday ! Lol. I've said much to the same tune when these DUST CSM posts started months back ... yes it will be needed eventually, but for the time being at least trying to make sure some of the Eve CSM have a good handle on DUST and are heavily involved in Eve will provide enough weight to this side of the debates. Perhaps CCP could include it in the voting, one vote for CSM and one vote for DUST/Eve candidates ... then the council can be made with 2 or 3 of them having a DUST interest too. It was my platform, but look this "Perhaps" or "Maybe" crap is not going to happen. If you want it and I mean WANT IT! Then throw out your "Maybe" and tell them Strait. CCP I WANT DUST IN THE CSM! Around 600,000 Mercs, over 200,000 PSN Accounts still isn't enough I guess. Over a month ago there was around 7 DUST Mercs all wanting to run for CSM, why isn't anyone asking "Where are they now?" Post #15 I don't particularly want a DUST representative in the CSM ! The council is there to provide a first impression of player feedback on CCPs ideas for development in New Eden and to consolidate the communities forum discussions and their own ideas into a proposal of changes the community wants to see. As it stands and probably will for a while yet, the bulk of the game mechanics are in the countless professions and items and economy on Eve side, as is the bulk of the player base, who, I might add, are all paying subscribers, but that's not to say DUST is any less worthy of being considered in their discussions. I can understand in a years time when we've got most of what is intended to be in DUST, that there will be a need for maybe 4 dedicated DUST CSM members on top of the current Eve members, but while this is still a beta and while there is still very little impact DUST can have on New Eden, I think CSM positions being taken up by people who have no, or next to no, knowledge of Eve would be more detrimental to Eve than a DUST player would be benificial to DUST. At this stage CCP still has their plan of what will be in DUST and how it will interact with Eve and they still have a heck of a lot of development to do with that. Just let them get on with it and provide your feedback on the forums, they've already shown an ability to take advice from the whole community in the sp cap changes recently, we just need a bit more of that. Having some Eve players on the CSM who also play DUST will maintain the solidity of the Eve CSM while still providing enough interest and forum/community awareness in the DUST development ideas. Finally I use words like perhaps and maybe because I'm not in a position to make demands of CCP like some people on this forum seem to think they are. I'm here to make suggestions and give opinions for them to consider as it's their game they are developing. If I was their boss or parent or the police I could make demands, but I'm a customer and my rights don't stretch that far, particularly for a free service. As I final thought ... To be honest I've seen enough on this forum to know there are VERY few members of this community that I would want representing us on the CSM, particularly those in the very vocal "elite" corporations who seem to prefer trolling and flaming than providing constructive feedback and discussion for the benefit of the game.

Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 906	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:18:00 - [21] - Quote The main importance I see in having a CSM candidate with a Dust as a major plank in their campaign platform is that Dust 514 is in a critical moment in its development and moving forward we need to insure two things: 1. That the interaction between Dust and Eve grows over time in a meaningful way that improves both games and draws more players into New Eden 2. That Dust doesn't screw up Eve through this interaction A CSM representative wouldn't bring up stuff like "lasers are op and need to be nerfed, the forge gun splash is too large, etc.". Instead it is more like: "Eve players and corporations should be able to go to a special market place where they can arrange contracts with Dust mercenaries to take specific districts to improve the EVE/Dust ineraction in Faction Warfare." or "The impact on player sovereignty from Dusters taking a planet is too much/little, I think it should be this instead."
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:28:00 - [22] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The main importance I see in having a CSM candidate with a Dust as a major plank in their campaign platform is that Dust 514 is in a critical moment in its development and moving forward we need to insure two things: 1. That the interaction between Dust and Eve grows over time in a meaningful way that improves both games and draws more players into New Eden 2. That Dust doesn't screw up Eve through this interaction A CSM representative wouldn't bring up stuff like "lasers are op and need to be nerfed, the forge gun splash is too large, etc.". Instead it is more like: "Eve players and corporations should be able to go to a special market place where they can arrange contracts with Dust mercenaries to take specific districts to improve the EVE/Dust ineraction in Faction Warfare." or "The impact on player sovereignty from Dusters taking a planet is too much/little, I think it should be this instead." Just announce your candidacy already we know you got the Votes in your pocket
Morathi III Rebelles A Quebec 57	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:38:00 - [23] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Looking at the results of last year's election - http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/24/eve-onlines-seventh-csm-results-are-in/ The minimum number of votes went to win a seat as "Council Alternate: 1,282 votes" I know we have a few Eve alts scattered around but it's really unclear if its enough to actually make even 1/2 this number. The Eve players themselves don't care at all about Dust 514 at this point. This leaves it really unlikely that this is a viable strategy. Perhaps a Dust Council of Planetary Management? I do feel like it's in all our interests to get some form of player representation to CCP. It's obvious from recent events that, while they are trying harder, they are very disconnected from what's going on with the player base. Very good point, but its dangerous in same time, ppl on dust just want to have a KDR of 10 lol and if a coorporation member represent he probably just want to help is corp i guess. Your statement is still very interesting i just put a warning because i want this game survive.
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:40:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:57:00 - [25] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it. Respectfully might have to disagree if only because it can be manipulated with alt toons, However if CCP limits voting somehow to one toon per PSN account that may be a start but then people would create multiple PSN accounts. It is still good for issues like this but i wouldnt want it for larger more indepth issues. Democracy in theory sounds nice but when an uninformed populace has an equal say to the informed/involved mob rule can quickly sink a ship.
DEADPOOL5241 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 233	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:00:00 - [26] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it. While I agree with you Zion (HI) on the SP poll by the devs (taken from a players poll) and it shows nice effort to engage the Dust community, the reason for CSM is also to police CCP on its behaviors towards the players. As we all agree the CSM will have to be an Eve player with Dust ties. Very few players fit that bill. But it is a needed position, but we need someone that can handle it and not get burned out.
Hawkings Greenback D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:05:00 - [27] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it. I agree that CCP need to do this more often, but how many of the people who play dust actually read the forums. I realise this is also true of the CSM in that not everyone votes and quite often it can be the loudest voice wins. It is a double edged sword and in all honesty I think dust needs some form of representation but what that is and how we achieve it may take a little longer than any of us realise.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 208	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:10:00 - [28] - Quote KainSpero wrote: The main importance I see in having a CSM candidate with a Dust as a major plank in their campaign platform is that Dust 514 is in a critical moment in its development and moving forward we need to insure two things: 1. That the interaction between Dust and Eve grows over time in a meaningful way that improves both games and draws more players into New Eden 2. That Dust doesn't screw up Eve through this interaction A CSM representative wouldn't bring up stuff like "lasers are op and need to be nerfed, the forge gun splash is too large, etc.". Instead it is more like: "Eve players and corporations should be able to go to a special market place where they can arrange contracts with Dust mercenaries to take specific districts to improve the EVE/Dust ineraction in Faction Warfare." or "The impact on player sovereignty from Dusters taking a planet is too much/little, I think it should be this instead." Exactly my point ... we do need some people on the CSM with a vested interest in DUST development, but that person also needs to have a solid understanding of how "The impact on player sovereignty from Dusters taking a planet" actually makes a difference to the well established Eve community and it's borders. What I'm saying is this (or these) candidates ideally should already be viable candidates for the Eve side that have taken up DUST with a passion aswell. I'm not voicing my opinions on this because I think I'd be suitable ... I've been in Eve for 5 years with a couple of accounts, but I haven't done much more than log in to run manufacture in highsec for the past 18 months or so, until recently anyway, getting back into it with some new capsuleers joining from DUST introduction :-) No offence intended, but I hadn't heard of you before all this streaming posts rubbish, but from what I read of your responses, you might fit in my "very few people I might want representing us" category, but there's a problem with anyone from the big corporations being elected in that it would be too easy for people to call bias or prejudice on every proposal / vote he makes. I don't think there is a perfect solution until DUST is big enough and complex enough and interconnected enough to warrant several dedicated representatives adding to the CSMs numbers, but until then someone like yourself could be good, so long as you can keep yourself focused on community and universal implications rather than corporate posturing and personal gain. That said it depends whether you're interested in that sort of role.
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:33:00 - [29] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Zion Shad wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it. I agree that CCP need to do this more often, but how many of the people who play dust actually read the forums. I realise this is also true of the CSM in that not everyone votes and quite often it can be the loudest voice wins. It is a double edged sword and in all honesty I think dust needs some form of representation but what that is and how we achieve it may take a little longer than any of us realise. Lol, guys I wasnt taking about the "voting" system olny the part I quoted. The EvE side doesn't even get this much DEV interaction on their forums.
Hawkings Greenback D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:43:00 - [30] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: Hawkings Greenback wrote: Zion Shad wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Dear players, Continuing our philosophy of developing our games in collaboration with the player base, we would like... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 I would love it if CCP just keeps this up. If this stays with Dust there will be no need for a CSM because we will be it. I agree that CCP need to do this more often, but how many of the people who play dust actually read the forums. I realise this is also true of the CSM in that not everyone votes and quite often it can be the loudest voice wins. It is a double edged sword and in all honesty I think dust needs some form of representation but what that is and how we achieve it may take a little longer than any of us realise. Lol, guys I was taking about the "voting" system olny the part I quoted. The EvE side doesn't even get this much DEV interaction on their forums. Im well aware you are on about the voting. And the dev interaction on these forums is better than on EVE. Maybe I should have split my post up a bit. The devs do interact on the EVE side, usually by locking threads lol. I was also pointing out that any CSM representation (bar any pod pilot that has interaction in both) is still along way off IMHO.

Cyris Fortune ZionTCD Legacy Rising 66	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:18:00 - [31] - Quote Am I right in saying that this years CSM is the player voice to CCP for next years expansion? If so then in theory we will need a dust/eve member to help give the community views for next years content. If we wait until next year the content we will get a say in or to address community issues will be 24 months before a fix? That could leave Dust high and dry. If game breaking flaws are found. Most casual players will move to the next Re-hashed FPS title. Just my 2isk
Finn Kempers BetaMax. 222	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:22:00 - [32] - Quote I'm gonna echo what I said to Telc in IRC, so this may mirror some posts on here also. We do need a form of Dust CSM. It doesn't need to be in Iceland, it can be done over the internet. From this group as Kain mentioned earlier it would be proper stuff discussed, not say the mechanics of guns. Otherwise EvE CSM would be full of people discussing ship and module balancing. This body would have to be from a selection of corps so as to maintain a balanced opinion, as there is no such thing as unbiased. This would not be far off from themittani.com news which pulls from all major corps to submit stuff so to balance bias out. This means the more well known players in NPC corps (i.e. Nova Knife) and of minor Dust corps too, this is about sorting the game, not stroking corp epeen. Hell, we could throw in some fresh meat to get some opinion for those who have been little in the game. Ideal situation is this Dust CSM would be direct with CCP and not go through the EVE CSM, where it will be caught with the clustercrap you can get along the way. However one or 2 reps from the Dust CSM would go to EVE CSM to transfer the minutes for discussion and to strengthen the EVE-Dust bond. Obvs these reps would hae to be EVE experienced and neutral standing as possible so to communicate Mercenary slur to EVE language that would be so censored here its ineligible. Now while the boardmembers would not have to be also EVE players (which is tbh the requirement for EVE CSM, fair enough) and could be just Dust players exclusively; there HAS to be also EVE-Dust players. The link between the the two may be idyllic at best currently, we have to start from somewhere. Get it wrong first time, and there will be mess. Lets avoid the same reason EVE CSM started, due to an event we won't go into. P.S. Whoever would represent this Dust CSM at EVE CSM would have to be a heavyweight with alcohol. Otherwise we might truly shame our rugged mercenary nature. And generally any EVE meetup involves alcoholic Quafe.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 788	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:53:00 - [33] - Quote The biggest problem with what you're suggesting Finn, is who decides who would sit on this player run/operated board? How would it be policed/regulated? Who decides what the group talks about, and what is sent off to CCP? I don't think an arbitrary gathering of players would work, no matter how well intentioned. Like someone said above : Popular Vote among the uninformed can sink the ship. Anything that is run/operated by players is subject to the personal feelings of those players. Why listen to people they don't like? Why allow people they have grudges with to have a say to CCP? You might not think people are that petty.... But a lot of them are. CCP should not and cannot have a vested interest whatever a group of players like this say unless they are sure that whoever's running it is giving everyone a fair shake.
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:06:00 - [34] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: The biggest problem with what you're suggesting Finn, is who decides who would sit on this player run/operated board? How would it be policed/regulated? Who decides what the group talks about, and what is sent off to CCP? I don't think an arbitrary gathering of players would work, no matter how well intentioned. Like someone said above : Popular Vote among the uninformed can sink the ship. Anything that is run/operated by players is subject to the personal feelings of those players. Why listen to people they don't like? Why allow people they have grudges with to have a say to CCP? You might not think people are that petty.... But a lot of them are. CCP should not and cannot have a vested interest whatever a group of players like this say unless they are sure that whoever's running it is giving everyone a fair shake.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:13:00 - [35] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Dust doesn't need its own council. That's one of the worst ideas that keeps cropping up. It just needs one or two people on the current CSM when the time is right. I disagree. While connected, the two games are not the same. The CSM summits are already packed trying to condense tons of subjects into just a couple days for Eve. Neither game would get sufficient attention or time if they had to accomodate both in the same summit. Both games have things that need to be discussed with CCP and given proper attention. A joint council cannot do that. Dust CSM dudes could maybe pop in via Lync if the Eve CSM folks are discussing the link, and the opposite is true for Eve CSM if they are talking about stuff that affects Eve. I personally feel that Dust should have it's own representative body that reports to CCP Shanghai. And while I feel this is absolutely necessary, I want to make it clear that I have no intention on running for such a body. (Unless I feel the people running would do more harm than good, but with the people we have in this community I highly doubt I would need to do this, and would not want to.) Maybe in 4-5 years time it may need its own personal council but for now there's just not enough content or things to be considered for it to even be an issue. Dust is never going to be as in depth as EVE or have as many options open to as EVE simply because its a FPS game.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:19:00 - [36] - Quote It's also well worth pointing out that when people say current CSM campaigns don't have anyone with any interest in Dust that's tot true. Mynnna is running for CSM and knows all about Dust through me.
DEADPOOL5241 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 233	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:25:00 - [37] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's also well worth pointing out that when people say current CSM campaigns don't have anyone with any interest in Dust that's tot true. Mynnna is running for CSM and knows all about Dust through me. I know about the new COD from friends, they tell me all about it, but until I go play COD I am not really going to be familiar with it as much as players who play 2 to 10 hours a day. Just saying experience is worth more then word of mouth from another player. Also your view point will be the only view point Mynnna hears from, imagine if politicians did this.. We need a CSM that does play Dust and Eve, not an EVE player getting word of mouth from Dust players..
Finn Kempers BetaMax. 222	Posted - 2013.01.25 20:25:00 - [38] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: The biggest problem with what you're suggesting Finn, is who decides who would sit on this player run/operated board? How would it be policed/regulated? Who decides what the group talks about, and what is sent off to CCP? I don't think an arbitrary gathering of players would work, no matter how well intentioned. Like someone said above : Popular Vote among the uninformed can sink the ship. Anything that is run/operated by players is subject to the personal feelings of those players. Why listen to people they don't like? Why allow people they have grudges with to have a say to CCP? You might not think people are that petty.... But a lot of them are. CCP should not and cannot have a vested interest whatever a group of players like this say unless they are sure that whoever's running it is giving everyone a fair shake. I'm fully aware of that. Personally I'm against the voting system. If anything CCP could choose what they deem balanced. Its the same reasoning im against the current way we are choosing the SP system. Its because of grudges etc. that I want a balanced share of varying opinions. Yes they will clash. There could be fire. But that way we arent just conforming to one opinion. By pulling together these clashes we can form agreements and pull something out. Also to manage the thing I suggest either a CSM EVE member, CCP member or someone who is simply willing to listen to all ways. Its tbh not that difficult to do, it just requires someone who isnt hard-headed and is prepared to pull in all the different directions and get something out.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.25 21:18:00 - [39] - Quote DEADPOOL5241 wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's also well worth pointing out that when people say current CSM campaigns don't have anyone with any interest in Dust that's tot true. Mynnna is running for CSM and knows all about Dust through me. I know about the new COD from friends, they tell me all about it, but until I go play COD I am not really going to be familiar with it as much as players who play 2 to 10 hours a day. Just saying experience is worth more then word of mouth from another player. Also your view point will be the only view point Mynnna hears from, imagine if politicians did this.. We need a CSM that does play Dust and Eve, not an EVE player getting word of mouth from Dust players.. Mynnna's a goon. He only need's another goons opinion to know what's in our interests and whats not. I see the point you're trying to make, but it's not right at all.
DEADPOOL5241 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 233	Posted - 2013.01.25 21:31:00 - [40] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: DEADPOOL5241 wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: It's also well worth pointing out that when people say current CSM campaigns don't have anyone with any interest in Dust that's tot true. Mynnna is running for CSM and knows all about Dust through me. I know about the new COD from friends, they tell me all about it, but until I go play COD I am not really going to be familiar with it as much as players who play 2 to 10 hours a day. Just saying experience is worth more then word of mouth from another player. Also your view point will be the only view point Mynnna hears from, imagine if politicians did this.. We need a CSM that does play Dust and Eve, not an EVE player getting word of mouth from Dust players.. Mynnna's a goon. He only need's another goons opinion to know what's in our interests and whats not. I see the point you're trying to make, but it's not right at all. Ah but then there is your problem, again you are giving a GOON a GOON's opinion and no one else. Based solely off that, I wont vote for Mynnna. Putting a CSM to serve your own self interests is exactly what I am afraid of. Take about its not right at all..

Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2013.01.25 22:24:00 - [41] - Quote And you think Politics work any other way?.. Mynnna was always running for himself, it just happens we have the same interests I.E our corp. You think other corps don't support their own reps and interests? You think real world politics work a different way? Do you think David Cameon knows all about what needs to be done on Education because he's a teacher? Or whats best for the police force because he's obviously also a copper.
SoTa PoP Clone Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2013.01.25 22:34:00 - [42] - Quote It's very clear to me that politics is not a subject most comprehend outside of immediate reactions. It's a dangerous and crazy world where your every word could be heard by thousands and torn a part. Where your image means everything and your value is equal to your ability to communicate yourself and help others communicate in turn. Are there people around here who could handle that? Yea, there is. Do they show it frequently? Nope. A lot of potential for DUST514 community leadership gets thrown under the bridge because the community speaks a certain way and they've adapted. The adaption itself is the problem - as long as you're willing to mend you're not willing to break loose. How can we trust someone to voice for us when we can see them on the forums just being forum warriors? Kain and Shad and maybe Nova Knife are the only ones I can think of Sure there was 1 more who have any chance at all to help organize this communities ideas and opinions into relevant factor-changing outcomes. Even if CSM was needed for us right now - it would end terribly for us. We need time still to organize who is who around here and who can speak properly for us. 3 people out of 100,000 that we can vouch for is pretty terrible. Though I still feel like I'm missing someone important when calling out leaders.. hmm...
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.01.26 10:58:00 - [43] - Quote Like people have said I doubt very much we will have any say this year other than the form of forum votes (which is good enough for me) I think maybe we should start taking ourselves seriously but independently of CCP. A separate entity like finn suggested earlier. CCP doesn't think we need a CSM yet and rightly so; What have we done to show them we can produce a competent band of like minded representatives who won't bicker after the niceties have passed? Nothing. I think we should set up an independent body with a different medium than the forums to discuss what the community has brought up. As finn said, we can elect an amount of members to this committee and leave it up to CCP to refine what they want at a later stage when they are ready. In the mean time we can still avidly discuss solutions to common problems amongst ourselves and submit this to CCP. It's up to us to go about this in a professional, inviting scope so CCP doesn't take us for a premature group of fps players that high tail it when things don't go our way. Like was said above, we are far too new (in the world of gaming) to be deemed a worthwhile investment to CCP - even the EVE CSM thinks this. But I don't think that means we should be complacent while we wait for other people to decide when it's our turn to show we care about this game as much as CCP / CSM cares about EVE. From the CSM minutes I seen, it was more reactionary than proactive talk which I think doesn't achieve what the community wanted you to set out to do. Sitting there and nodding your head isn't what the community needs, I know that not only does CCP not have much time, have their own requirements to discuss and can't diverge what every member wants to make an epeen point about, but the CSM should come prepared with an already documented solution to each of their problems so that very meting isn't a brainstorming session but a many to one relational discussion and leave it to CCP to take on board. I have setup a #dustCSM channel which is invite only (so it doesn't get jam packed with random people who don't want to talk about the channel topic) and will make a separate thread for invites. At present I will invite anyone with a vested interest in the a dust CSM, but once the making of the dust CSM is documented, I think it would be best to make it CSM representatives only. I will then pass on channel privileges to those voted and let the elected take over. I'll setup a dust CSM site (nothing special for now) to help with documentation, news, updates, file management etc
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 16	Posted - 2013.01.26 11:37:00 - [44] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: Like people have said I doubt very much we will have any say this year other than the form of forum votes (which is good enough for me) I think maybe we should start taking ourselves seriously but independently of CCP. A separate entity like finn suggested earlier. CCP doesn't think we need a CSM yet and rightly so; What have we done to show them we can produce a competent band of like minded representatives who won't bicker after the niceties have passed? Nothing. I think we should set up an independent body with a different medium than the forums to discuss what the community has brought up. As finn said, we can elect an amount of members to this committee and leave it up to CCP to refine what they want at a later stage when they are ready. In the mean time we can still avidly discuss solutions to common problems amongst ourselves and submit this to CCP. It's up to us to go about this in a professional, inviting scope so CCP doesn't take us for a premature group of fps players that high tail it when things don't go our way. Like was said above, we are far too new (in the world of gaming) to be deemed a worthwhile investment to CCP - even the EVE CSM thinks this. But I don't think that means we should be complacent while we wait for other people to decide when it's our turn to show we care about this game as much as CCP / CSM cares about EVE. From the CSM minutes I seen, it was more reactionary than proactive talk which I think doesn't achieve what the community wanted you to set out to do. Sitting there and nodding your head isn't what the community needs, I know that not only does CCP not have much time, have their own requirements to discuss and can't diverge what every member wants to make an epeen point about, but the CSM should come prepared with an already documented solution to each of their problems so that very meting isn't a brainstorming session but a many to one relational discussion and leave it to CCP to take on board. I have setup a #dustCSM channel which is invite only (so it doesn't get jam packed with random people who don't want to talk about the channel topic) and will make a separate thread for invites. At present I will invite anyone with a vested interest in the a dust CSM, but once the making of the dust CSM is documented, I think it would be best to make it CSM representatives only. I will then pass on channel privileges to those voted and let the elected take over. I'll setup a dust CSM site (nothing special for now) to help with documentation, news, updates, file management etc Ahhhh......finally, the Logical course of Action has been taken :) +1
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.01.26 12:18:00 - [45] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=495303&post495303 for those with an interest
Three Double-A Batteries Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2013.01.26 12:21:00 - [46] - Quote Why doesn't one universe equal one vote? I can't see why you should have to pay for EVE to vote for what impacts DUST. Aren't these games connected? Shouldn't DUST players be able to campaign in DUST?
SoTa PoP Clone Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2013.01.26 12:27:00 - [47] - Quote Three Double-A Batteries wrote: Why doesn't one universe equal one vote? I can't see why you should have to pay for EVE to vote for what impacts DUST. Aren't these games connected? Shouldn't DUST players be able to campaign in DUST? We are fighting for such a thing - for now nothing exists because we are not complete so we must work with what EvE has. It's important we properly organize ourselves and handle CSM with relative seriousness. But for now it wouldn't impact us too heavily since we're focused on gameplay mechanics. But that will soon change and an early prep would go far in helping us down the road.


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