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Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.20 19:38:00 - [1] - Quote Okay, so the consensus seems to be that, at the moment, the heavy is overpowered. The consensus ain't wrong. If you ran into the average heavy in a PvE shooter, it would be a mini-boss. Its defenses are impressive, its offense equally impressive; even one, skillfully used, can apparently slice a squad of assault suits to bits in seconds; and a team is restricted in their use only by the number of players skilled to equip them. It's not uncommon to see a team with an assault force made up primarily of heavies. Even I, stealth addict though I am (I didn't say I was very good at it, just addicted to it) have started calculating odds of victory based on how many heavies I see in the team lobby. Apparently CCP is aware of the issue and working on a much-feared fix. So, what the hell, I'll weigh in. ... Mostly with a few arguments I haven't seen voiced yet in my short time here. Argument: heavies aren't OP; the maps are weighted in their favor. Heavies seem to excel when they don't have to waddle too far and can either force opponents to come to them or just stump around a corner and start shredding people at close to medium range. The maps, at the moment, are battles in bottles-- particularly that new one, yeah, that one, the one where everybody's fighting over three control points in a single building. Yes, you can put snipers outside. No, there's nothing important to fight over out there unless one team is already on its heels (though this happens nearly every match, there), so get your damned heavy and waddle forth! If the maps were larger (say, using most of the territory they apparently possess), heavies would be less-dangerous and people would be complaining about wildernesses full of nigh-invisible snipers, so, assuming CCP plans to expand the combat zone, the fix is on its way. Counter-argument: there are plenty of ways to compensate for movement speed on a large map Like: dropships, tanks, and everybody's favorite, jeeps. Er, LAV's. That last has a free (really? Am I wrong about that?) militia variant that lets heavies scoot around the field like heavily-armored penguins on roller skates, running people over or just bailing out and machine-gunning them, at no cost. Sure, they can be countered, but not as easily or cleanly as the tactic itself works. This could be solved in a few ways. Disallow heavies using vehicles (justification: they're too damn big and/or heavy; fit assault or lighter if you want to board!). Remove the damned free jeep. This would have several benefits, including making the establishment (and removal) of portable spawn points on large maps a major priority. ("Is that a squad of heavies in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?") Argument: heavies are direct-assault killers, so confine them to that role Expanding on the "no vehicles for heavies" thought, what about hacking? Why should heavies be able to burn through hostile defenses, then belly right on up to the objective console and whistle happily while hacking in the knowledge that only a great (and doomed) fool would try to ambush them? Sure, they'd just stand around on guard while their logistics escort got busy with the poor objective's electronics, but isn't that the way it should be? Pick off the hacker, and the heavies get stuck at an unsecured objective, hostiles coming down around their ears, waiting for the hacker to jog back-- if he even makes it! If you want to be in any way sure of success, bring several somethings other than heavies. While we're at it, we could deny them inventory space for grenades, though that's a whole other discussion. Argument: how about weak points? I don't know about the rest of you scouts, but a heavy is the only thing I hesitate to sneak up on. Unless you make your kill very cleanly (which usually seems to mean, "at point-blank range into the back of his head"), that heavy is going to wheel around and you're going to be in one desperate fight. So, supposing we do a classic "mini-boss" thing, and give them weak spots-- like the aft quadrant? Put a damage multiplier on that hit zone (if CCP can easily program that), and you'll soon see heavies walking around back to back like buddy protagonists in an action flick. Worth it for the comedy value alone. Argument: work on risk versus reward If heavies are going to be left more or less as-is, their suits should be very expensive, at least commensurate with their increased K/D ratio. Counter-argument: that won't make the problem better CCP has tried to discourage use of certain "elite" units by making them expensive, before. Anybody remember them saying that they didn't expect there ever to be more than two or three Titan-class vessels in all of Eve? A unit that grants its owner a distinct advantage will be purchased. Period. And it will be purchased by those who already (albeit by their own merits, usually) have a sharp advantage, in order to add to it. Elite merc units will buy up the suits in bulk and swallow the cost in order to command high hiring prices: "The finest in both skills and war material." The effect of this is to render mid-ranked mercs crunchy and good with ketchup. Argument: well, what about the flip-side? Increase WP value to +100 for a non-heavy who downs a heavy Ever narrowly survive a fight with one of these behemoths and then feel kind of insulted when that "Kill +50" pops up? "That? THAT was worth 50 measly points? And there's another SIX of those mothers in the area? Screw it; gonna go hack a supply depot." Increase the point value, and you might see a lot more concentrated fire focused on heavies. Also: supposing we flag them on the map? At the moment, a red's a red, a blue's a blue, a green's a green. But supposing heavies got their own color-sig? "+100 points here; come and get it!" That's it from me, at least for now. Thoughts?
Noraa Anderson Nox Aeterna Security 184	Posted - 2013.01.20 19:54:00 - [2] - Quote The general consensus from Assault scrubs who want to lolroll everything with ARs more like.
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.20 20:11:00 - [3] - Quote Noraa Anderson wrote: The general consensus from Assault scrubs who want to lolroll everything with ARs more like. Perhaps that's so, at least in part. Assault w/ AR seems to be the default in a lot of places, but I find those MUCH easier to engage than heavies. AR's are pretty accurate-- which is a weakness. A scout, strafing back and forth at random while spraying SMG fire like a mad fiend, has decent odds of winning a straight fight at close range. In theory, at least from what I remember from the dev blogs, my scout agility should be even more of a straight counter to a heavy's, well, heavy-ness-- and in an open-air setting where I manage to close before the heavy spots me, that's often how it works. Thing is, DUST is full of cramped spaces, and if I get stuck in a heavy's sights for more than an instant, I'm toast. The MG won't just ding my shields like the occasional frantic AR round will; it'll burn right through. The heavy, meanwhile, doesn't need to worry much about the terrain aside from keeping it out of his line of fire. CCP seems to have gone for that whole "interceptor versus cruiser" balance thing, but it's more like "interceptor versus cruiser in dense asteroid field." Advantage: cruiser, absent an exceptional inty pilot. Sooner or later the inty hits a 'roid, loses traversal, and gets minced.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.01.20 20:19:00 - [4] - Quote My question still remains what made them OP? They were pretty crappy (i.e. not user friendly and took much more skill than an assault suit) up until recently. Up until about the time they added the recoil to AR's and took away the magic dot scope in fact...hmmmm. It seems like again and again I find myself asking the question "am I the only one that sees this?"
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.20 20:24:00 - [5] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: My question still remains what made them OP? They were pretty crappy (i.e. not user friendly and took much more skill than an assault suit) up until recently. Up until about the time they added the recoil to AR's and took away the magic dot scope in fact...hmmmm. It seems like again and again I find myself asking the question "am I the only one that sees this?" Possibly. <-- rank n00b. Don't know the history, only know what things are like now. What things are like now is troublesome. The origin of the problem might suggest a fix, but not necessarily-- especially if the "fix" that produced the problem was aimed mostly at other troubles, elsewhere. Unintended consequences and all that. Also: wait. You mean AR's used to be even more accurate? Yikes.
Stinker Butt Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2013.01.20 23:13:00 - [6] - Quote Tarquin Markel wrote: Okay, so the consensus seems to be that, at the moment, the heavy is overpowered. The consensus ain't wrong. If you ran into the average heavy in a PvE shooter, it would be a mini-boss. Its defenses are impressive, its offense equally impressive; even one, skillfully used, can apparently slice a squad of assault suits to bits in seconds; and a team is restricted in their use only by the number of players skilled to equip them. It's not uncommon to see a team with an assault force made up primarily of heavies. You're very new here if you don't know the history of the assault rifle nerf since it just happened a couple of weeks ago, So welcome. I'll fill you in, paraphrasing a bit of course. A few weeks back, nobody cared about heavies. The "nerf" was the replacement of the assault rifle scope with iron sights and the addition of recoil. For some people it affected their game considerably, for others it did not. Exmaple Core (Probably the best heavy in the game) finally became the top killer on the leaderboards after the "nerf." And now, here we are with everyone crying for a nerf to the heavies. I think that pretty much sums it up in my kinda biased opinion. I don't agree that the heavy is OP, but I do believe that there are a few trolls that would like you to think that. I do think that the heavy is more likely to kill you than the other way around if you don't use some kind of tactics to defeat him. I am a decent heavy and I certainly cannot do those things you speak of. It's sounds like a story about Batman. I will agree though that a squad of heavies is a scary thing. As a heavy, I don't mind 1v1 heavy (I actually look forward to it), but more than that and I would like some back up. I hate to imagine 4 prototype Heavies walking around like snails killing anything dumb enough to get close. Total HP is probably just over 4k. That's like a really good tank. But then again, a tank is one person, and this is 4. And the combined cost of one set of suits for the whole heavy squad will be well over 1 mil isk and they are likely to die at least 2-3 times during a decent match. So in reality, it's no where near as good as a tank, but it's every bit as scary. Perhaps the solution to this is not a "nerf," but a limit to the number of heavies that can be on the same squad or team? I don't want this, but it seems a better alternative to a nerf.
Polish Hammer Conspiratus Immortalis 300	Posted - 2013.01.20 23:32:00 - [7] - Quote I think the real point here is that the idea of a nerf to heavies is completely idiotic and should be viewed as such. As Stinker Butt has stated above, there are a few trolls that as of late have been crying about having heavies nerfed when in all practicality if they took a hit from the "nerfhammer" they'd never be used again. I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. They don't need a nerf. End of story. Stop QQing about them. Stop getting into close quarters with them. Stop trying to 1v1 them. Stop playing poorly and think about what you're doing. I'm not trying to insult anyone in saying this but it's gotten a bit out of hand. There are only a select few people that have been crying about heavies and they seem to be the proverbial empty cans that are rattling the loudest.
Bainlear Gorrilian Infinite Ohmage 12	Posted - 2013.01.21 00:15:00 - [8] - Quote In other games, a miniboss with a heavy automatic weapon will have either 10x to 20x the hp of the lone openent, hordes of back up, or a gauntlet of platforming to overcome before you can get in a position to take it out. Those minibosses also tend to have infinite ammo. Shields and armor together, Heavies have about only about 5x the hit points of the assault type. Two well places grenades will end them; I've dealt the damage, I've felt the damage. This goes double for hacker heavies. And AV grenades can end an LAVs. And remember rezzing and repping. Logibros are there to lend a hand after the rest of the squad has ended the heavy. If you face the heavy squad, then sorry, you are out of luck. Grenades can insure at least one of them has to pay for his expensive build, again. Be happy they can't run you over, like a tank. Most of the kills are about who can shoot straight and who spawns at who's back.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.01.21 00:16:00 - [9] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: I think the real point here is that the idea of a nerf to heavies is completely idiotic and should be viewed as such. As Stinker Butt has stated above, there are a few trolls that as of late have been crying about having heavies nerfed when in all practicality if they took a hit from the "nerfhammer" they'd never be used again. I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. They don't need a nerf. End of story. Stop QQing about them. Stop getting into close quarters with them. Stop trying to 1v1 them. Stop playing poorly and think about what you're doing. I'm not trying to insult anyone in saying this but it's gotten a bit out of hand. There are only a select few people that have been crying about heavies and they seem to be the proverbial empty cans that are rattling the loudest. Pretty much. Although in all fairness the OP wasn't here for the old AR sights so he's only looking at heavies right now. His post was well thought out and was an attempt at constructive posting about an issue he saw with the game. Welcome to the minority, OP. Make more posts like this and the forums will be better for it. Unfortunately this 'issue' has been something that a lot of us (both heavies and players in general) are just tired of hearing. This and Forge Guns being OP because they can OHK any infantry unit have just been beaten to death and we've all moved on. Keep up the good posting though, merc. Welcome to the war.
Patoman OfallColors Angels of Darkness 3	Posted - 2013.01.21 01:11:00 - [10] - Quote Double the deployment costs, twice the armor twice the costs? Things should never be balanced purely on things being equal, bigger weapons should be better but cost more. Likewise, make the scout armor 1/2 3/4 the cost of a assault (and logi the same)

Stinker Butt Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2013.01.21 03:12:00 - [11] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Keep up the good posting though, merc. Welcome to the war. I also want to point out that I wasn't trying to come down on the OP. I can tell that he is a rookie merc, and the post is very well thought out, even though it pi**ed me off reading it. @Tarquin, when those assault suits hit prototype and they start adding shield extenders, assaults have as much, if not more shield than most heavies. As powerful as the hmg is, a prototype assault rifle can kill a heavy faster than they can turn around. The heavy is hitting a plateau right now as the suits and weapons won't get better. Most of the drama that you are seeing in the forum is politics. The war of new eden is not only fought on the battlefield, but also right here on the forums. When you can't beat them on one side, there's a chance you can beat them on the other. When you're in the top %, you will do anything cutthroat and without hesitation to have a chance at being the best. It's sad, but it's life. You would think it is the olympics or something, but nope, just a video game. I'm trying to do my best to make sure that the devs use "real" information from the game as opposed to listening to the ridiculous claims. Just look at the stats of some of the people that are crying about this and you will wonder why they have any complaints at all. If they do change it, fine, good even, but use real information. Be careful getting yourself caught up in this stuff. Eve is brutal, and I'm afraid they haven't seen anything yet. Welcome to New Eden.
137H4RGIC WarRavens 26	Posted - 2013.01.21 03:29:00 - [12] - Quote Do heavies get automatic fire as soon as they hit the trigger or does it take 2 seconds to spin up to firing velocity? ANy minigun should have to spin up. And it should take two to three seconds to shoot that thing, lest it jam or overheat.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.01.21 03:37:00 - [13] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: Do heavies get automatic fire as soon as they hit the trigger or does it take 2 seconds to spin up to firing velocity? ANy minigun should have to spin up. And it should take two to three seconds to shoot that thing, lest it jam or overheat. The HMG has significantly reduced accuracy when the trigger is initially pulled due to the counter-rotating mechanism that has removed the need for the gun to spool up. It does overheat eventually, although I'll admit it does take just a bit too long for that.
Stinker Butt Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2013.01.21 03:46:00 - [14] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: Do heavies get automatic fire as soon as they hit the trigger or does it take 2 seconds to spin up to firing velocity? ANy minigun should have to spin up. And it should take two to three seconds to shoot that thing, lest it jam or overheat. You will be dead in less than two seconds if anybody is hitting your head. And we have very big heads.
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 04:41:00 - [15] - Quote Generally: Eh-- fair enough. I'm certainly new. On the other hand, the "heavy count as win predictor" does actually seem to kinda ... work. It doesn't seem like it should. Stinker Butt wrote: I am a decent heavy and I certainly cannot do those things you speak of. It's sounds like a story about Batman. Hm. Well ... I guess the opposing team in one of my early rounds on Manus Peak had Batman in its ranks? I mean, obviously not. But when Objective C, in one of its basement phases, came under siege by a short-staffed squad of two or three heavies, our assault suits just couldn't spawn fast enough. Spawn, one, two, dead. The heavies forced the assaults back in a fighting withdrawal to the objective itself, splattering any random respawners, then finished them off. It took them a bit to actually take the objective (had to secure the surface before actually marching up to the big blue button, I guess-- not easy with people in assault suits materializing randomly in a 20-yard radius). What blew me away was how few of them there were, engaging vastly superior numbers and coming out of it with maybe a few dings on the armor. I mean, we all seem to have our moments of greatness in this game (I've got a couple moments from matches today m'self that leave me feeling all warm and tingly), and maybe that was just one of theirs. Maybe the assaults were cowering under cover and being picked off one by one as their positions became exposed. Still, it made an impression. Well-- there's that, and then there's the amount of firepower I have to expend on a heavy in a freaking sneak attack (my specialty, in principle) before it folds. It's kind of a lot. At least they can't shrug off remote detonation packs.... Quote: ... assaults have as much, if not more shield than most heavies.... It's not the shields on a heavy. I know those are pretty thin. It's the goddamn armor.... Now, granted, I guess I have almost as good a record against heavies as they have against me, but a lot of that comes down to remote explosives. My main reasons for feeling that the suits are overpowered come down to having watched too many heavies stumping down too many hallways, withering all opposition before them. I can only plant so many explosives so fast, and heavies in da house tends to mean that this objective is falling, right now. In Eve Online, you can identify what is maybe a little too good by how disproportionately it gets used. Pre-revamp, Rifters ruled, Merlins drooled. Many Rifters, few Merlins. Then the Merlin got switched to a full turret fit. All of a sudden, Caldari PvP frigates are coming out of the woodwork. (Does space have woodwork?) Here, the assault is kind of a default; I see more of those than anything else, and that's kind of to be expected. What disturbs me is how often that is not the case-- how often I spawn into a lobby that's 70 or 80% full of heavies (that's probably an exaggeration, but sure as hell doesn't feel like it). What's more, when that happens, our team tends to win-- unless the other side has even more. The heavy is supposed to be especially good at killing things in a game where an awful lot of what you're doing is killing things. It does its job well. Fair enough. But that a specialist role is getting used so much, sometimes more than the generalist.... Something seems "off." I do kind of like your idea about maybe limiting their numbers, but that seems a little ... artificial. Perhaps reasons not to constantly play heavies will develop out of the gameplay itself, especially if CCP lets us out of our bottles (small maps) somewhere along in here.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.01.21 04:57:00 - [16] - Quote As a heavy, I have so many ways that I can be countered it's not even funny. Complaining that a heavy has thick armor? Really? Wtf do you think makes us run at the speed of a snail?
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 05:18:00 - [17] - Quote Kovak Therim wrote: As a heavy, I have so many ways that I can be countered it's not even funny. Complaining that a heavy has thick armor? Really? Wtf do you think makes us run at the speed of a snail? Please note that I have neither suggested stripping your armor nor your weapons (though I did suggest including a "weak spot"). Confining your role further to increase the importance of other suit types, now, that I've suggested.
Stinker Butt Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2013.01.21 05:49:00 - [18] - Quote Tarquin Markel wrote: I mean, we all seem to have our moments of greatness in this game (I've got a couple moments from matches today m'self that leave me feeling all warm and tingly), and maybe that was just one of theirs. I think you're right. We all have those games occasionally and being "good" does not mean you always have them, but that you have them more frequently. Two games I scored first place in last couple of hours, one i went 17/1, and other was 14/1. most games i stayed in single digits and didn't rank in the top 3. my overall k/d ratio hasn't changed at 3. But those poor guys who I played against in those two matches were probably cursing at me and calling me OP. Some matches I can not seem to miss when mowing people over with my LAV. Some matches are soooo good, I actually feel guilty for killing people so much. (What can I say? I'm a sensitive merc) But other times I can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn. In the end, the numbers don't lie, but people on forums do. You show some potential, and since I've been drinking and you appear to still be listening, i'll continue talking. lol. Do your homework on the people who are stirring the pot the most on those threads and start with the guy who has started them. Take a look at their stats, and then watch how they play. If you still think they have any right to call nerf on somebody, I'll be very surprised. It's all Dust political BS. it's fine as long as it's only the people that ccp doesn't take seriously. But the purpose of the threads are to get people like you to catch on, and you certainly remember that one time when that heavy came in and pwned everyone real good, don't you? Yeah, we all do. that doesn't make them OP. CCP may not listen to them, but if everyone joins the fight, they will. You've already figured out a couple of fool proof ways to kill a heavy. Why don't you wait until you have your prototype armor and then tell me if you still think heavies are OP.
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:05:00 - [19] - Quote Maps: This I agree with. Generally, all our maps are not being used for the purposes they were designed with. Heavies not boarding vehicles: NO. You lock the Heavy out of an LAV, and you've forced a 1/4 of a tactical squad to hoof it at a snail's pace. Not a problem now, but it will be horrendous when the maps get bigger (Which. They. Will.) Remove the free LAV: Definitely better. However, I still don't want squads to be forced to walk over potentially long distances. A better option? keep the vehicle, but you have to buy the turret. Alternatively, have vehicle enter/exit animations that are slowed down by heavier suits - Scouts practically leap in, while Heavies will look like a kid trying to hop on a horse. Attack/Defense: Weak points can work - we have them with Vehicles already. However, the back won't be the weak spot - I really don't think the fusion backpack is going to be that easy to blow up. The sides are probably weakest. In general, the Heavy is meant as a combat support unit - Assault units in cover do the killing, while the Heavy gives suppressing fire and kills other Heavies. Against one soldier at medium range, they should dominate. But at most other ranges, they are vulnerable... And that is when they should be backed up by their squad. Expensive Suits: Honestly, I agree here. Although I don't know the exact numbers, Heavies are likely only marginally higher-priced than an Assault of the same grade. Once the secondary market comes, however, true prices are going to be player-dictated. That's actually a good thing - if more players use a given item (risk/reward imbalance), the price goes up due to real-life economic principles. This makes ISK cost self-balancing in this situation. All CCP has to do, is tweak the material quantities. Warpoints for killing a Heavy: In EVE, small ships can kill the bigger ships (weird, huh?). The reward for punching above your weight in space is loot that is entire size-classes above yours. in DUST, your idea can work - however double-weight WP is a little much. +25 is pushing it, but at least acceptable. Color-signature: Fraid not. Instead, you can change the shape of the little solid "infantry" dot on the minimap. Wouln't change the size of the sprite, or the fact it has an arrow. But you can even extend this to all suit types, when spotted close enough for a clear ID. Here's a few options. Current round dot: Assault. Half-Circle dot: Scout Triangle dot: Logistics Square dot: Heavy X-shape dot: "Command"-type suits (Soon[TM])
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:08:00 - [20] - Quote Hrrrrrm. Stinker Butt wrote: ... the purpose of the threads are to get people like you to catch on, and you certainly remember that one time when that heavy came in and pwned everyone real good, don't you? Yeah, we all do. that doesn't make them OP. CCP may not listen to them, but if everyone joins the fight, they will. Point. There certainly seems to be a political element. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that there isn't any problem. I'd like to hear your thoughts on heavy proliferation (you've already suggested limiting their/your numbers, so I presume you see the issue). Quote: You've already figured out a couple of fool proof ways to kill a heavy. Why don't you wait until you have your prototype armor and then tell me if you still think heavies are OP. To the latter: fair point. I -am- still new. To the former: a remote det pack trap will kill a heavy, a scout, an assault, a logi, AND their poodles. It is not, however, foolproof if the fool is randomly slinging explosives around or happens to be not so much a fool and therefore spots the trap. It's not anti-heavy. It's anti-vehicle and anti-unobservant infantryman. But ... yes. Could use more data, it's true.

Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:21:00 - [21] - Quote Zat Earthshatter: Wow! Somebody directly addressing my suggestions! Thank you. About the dot colors: why not? I mean, I think I can see some issues, but-- what's your concern specifically?
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:48:00 - [22] - Quote Tarquin Markel wrote: Zat Earthshatter: Wow! Somebody directly addressing my suggestions! Thank you. About the dot colors: why not? I mean, I think I can see some issues, but-- what's your concern specifically? Thanks for appreciating my feedback. Now for the color thing. Color is normally meant to indicate allegiance. Plus, different colors than red/blue are sometimes used in other games - so even having a similar shade, yet differently-colored Heavy indicator may fool a player into thinking that Heavy is on a different team than it really is, which can be bad. The shapes allow one to keep the same colors, yet still tell the suits apart. Plus, using shapes allows you to pick out any suit type, not just pick on one version. There's also less room for confusion, as allies are still quite clearly allies, and enemies are clearly enemies.
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:51:00 - [23] - Quote Zat Earthshatter wrote: Color is normally meant to indicate allegiance. Plus, different colors than red/blue are sometimes used in other games - so even having a similar shade, yet differently-colored Heavy indicator may fool a player into thinking that Heavy is on a different team than it really is, which can be bad. The shapes allow one to keep the same colors, yet still tell the suits apart. Plus, using shapes allows you to pick out any suit type, not just pick on one version. There's also less room for confusion, as allies are still quite clearly allies, and enemies are clearly enemies. I was thinking more of making hostile heavies, say, blood red. Current "reds" are actually orange, so that color seems to have been left open. Friendlies, dark blue and forest green, maybe? To help you keep track of who you're flanking for? (So embarrassing to discover the dude you were counting on for suppressing fire was the logistics backup....)
Stinker Butt Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2013.01.21 06:51:00 - [24] - Quote Tarquin Markel wrote: I'd like to hear your thoughts on heavy proliferation (you've already suggested limiting their/your numbers, so I presume you see the issue) . Don't presume that. I can only say that it is intimidating to face a team full of heavies. That could be a match making issue as much as anything. Don't take it personally, but I don't trust your gut. You may perceive 80% heavies out there, but show me the numbers. There are 4 types of suits, so balance would be 25% each. We know it will never be perfect, so maybe +/- 10%? so if there are > 35% heavies actively playing, then ccp should consider changing something. Or maybe it's less than 15% and they need a buff. I'm just making numbers up here to make a point, which is, CCP doesn't need our advice on who or how to nerf. That is why your thread seems somewhat under-appreciated. What they do need is suggestions on how to improve the game. Had you worded things differently from the beginning, it probably would have had more positive feedback.
Tarquin Markel The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 85	Posted - 2013.01.21 07:02:00 - [25] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: Don't take it personally, but I don't trust your gut. You may perceive 80% heavies out there, but show me the numbers. Fair enough; guts aren't to be trusted. It's also true that heavies stand out in a crowd the way a boulder stands out in a grove of aspens. Five boulders and twenty aspens = "Wow, that's a lot of boulders." Or something. Anyhow, you make a good point. I -do- think a little more info on the map would be nice, and I still feel like I've slain Goliath any time I manage to SMG a heavy, but ... ... well, time will tell, I suppose. I don't have the statistics, but I'll bet CCP does. Hopefully, they'll know how best to use them, bearing in mind that graphs have sometimes been used to explain that rail guns are balanced against artillery snipers in Eve, which fits under the "lies, damn lies, and ..." heading, but ... ... hopefully they've learned from experience which statistics to look at. Hint: it's not the kittening range/damage curve.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:03:00 - [26] - Quote Was going to troll. not worth it. You're seeing the opposite end of the heavy issue before the reset. before the reset heavies were an absolute joke. The proto VK.1 suits cost 250,000 and the weapons cost 100k each on heavies, and even with proto mods you didn't have much benefit over the type II suits, which you need level 2 amarr heavy suit skill for. Once your SP spike high heavies become less and less a threat as they are. But when everyone's in the level 1-3 dropsuits heavies have the advantage but do not benefit from the linear growth of the other suit types as far as suit tech goes. they seem OP now, but it'll level off sharply soon. The ones that remain lethal will be the ones who know how to deploy their heavies in ways that force everyone else to play to their strengths. But as far as heavies go, they'll pay 2-4 times what an assault will for fits, for not much greater advantage except in very specific circumstances, which heavies do their best to cause everyone to get sucked into.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:19:00 - [27] - Quote Headshots, make them count. /thread
trollolollo man Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.01.21 12:21:00 - [28] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Was going to troll. not worth it. You're seeing the opposite end of the heavy issue before the reset. before the reset heavies were an absolute joke. The proto VK.1 suits cost 250,000 and the weapons cost 100k each on heavies, and even with proto mods you didn't have much benefit over the type II suits, which you need level 2 amarr heavy suit skill for. Once your SP spike high heavies become less and less a threat as they are. But when everyone's in the level 1-3 dropsuits heavies have the advantage but do not benefit from the linear growth of the other suit types as far as suit tech goes. they seem OP now, but it'll level off sharply soon. The ones that remain lethal will be the ones who know how to deploy their heavies in ways that force everyone else to play to their strengths. But as far as heavies go, they'll pay 2-4 times what an assault will for fits, for not much greater advantage except in very specific circumstances, which heavies do their best to cause everyone to get sucked into.
trollolollo man Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.01.21 12:32:00 - [29] - Quote the haevys are short to mid range so keep us the distance dont try to kill us in close quarters or you will die. The haevys in mid long range sucks also with sarpnshooter 5 The forge is not so easy to use with infatry but u have to has skill for killing someone with this weapon the haevys are for defend obbiective or to do suppression fire the laser melt us a well pointed head shot kill us quickly a militia ar can easy shout us down in mid range u must to take this game with head and strategy its not cod ;) (sorry my english im italian)
trollolollo man Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.01.21 13:48:00 - [30] - Quote from dust514 official web site: The Heavy dropsuit is designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from low-grade explosives. Its power-assisted exoskeleton lets the wearer use the heaviest weapons available. What heavy dropsuits lack in mobility they make up for with incomparable defensives. Mercenaries wearing such armor have been known to survive going toe-to-toe with enemy vehicles. So if ccp think and write this why all you want to nerf it ??? when they finish to nerf it in the battlefield we see only scout or assault it this what all of u want for dust???

CHICAGOCUBS4EVER TeamPlayers 117	Posted - 2013.01.21 14:41:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Was going to troll. not worth it. You're seeing the opposite end of the heavy issue before the reset. before the reset heavies were an absolute joke. The proto VK.1 suits cost 250,000 and the weapons cost 100k each on heavies, and even with proto mods you didn't have much benefit over the type II suits, which you need level 2 amarr heavy suit skill for. Once your SP spike high heavies become less and less a threat as they are. But when everyone's in the level 1-3 dropsuits heavies have the advantage but do not benefit from the linear growth of the other suit types as far as suit tech goes. they seem OP now, but it'll level off sharply soon. The ones that remain lethal will be the ones who know how to deploy their heavies in ways that force everyone else to play to their strengths. But as far as heavies go, they'll pay 2-4 times what an assault will for fits, for not much greater advantage except in very specific circumstances, which heavies do their best to cause everyone to get sucked into. couldn't have said it better myself.... I agree STARTING OUT heavies are stronger than other classes, but it takes a LOT more SP invested in a heavy to remain on an even keel as time goes on, PLUS the sheer cost of suits and such make it, in the long run, nowhere near 'OP' status. I'm still getting a good laugh out of all these people running around with heavy and AR and such equipped.. they will find out soon the mistake they made.
trollolollo man Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.01.21 14:45:00 - [32] - Quote im ok with nerf of the hp of the haevy but what about for a armor hardeness modules like tank? less hp but better armor resistance
Snagman 313 Carbon 7 41	Posted - 2013.01.21 16:47:00 - [33] - Quote CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Was going to troll. not worth it. You're seeing the opposite end of the heavy issue before the reset. before the reset heavies were an absolute joke. The proto VK.1 suits cost 250,000 and the weapons cost 100k each on heavies, and even with proto mods you didn't have much benefit over the type II suits, which you need level 2 amarr heavy suit skill for. Once your SP spike high heavies become less and less a threat as they are. But when everyone's in the level 1-3 dropsuits heavies have the advantage but do not benefit from the linear growth of the other suit types as far as suit tech goes. they seem OP now, but it'll level off sharply soon. The ones that remain lethal will be the ones who know how to deploy their heavies in ways that force everyone else to play to their strengths. But as far as heavies go, they'll pay 2-4 times what an assault will for fits, for not much greater advantage except in very specific circumstances, which heavies do their best to cause everyone to get sucked into. couldn't have said it better myself.... I agree STARTING OUT heavies are stronger than other classes, but it takes a LOT more SP invested in a heavy to remain on an even keel as time goes on, PLUS the sheer cost of suits and such make it, in the long run, nowhere near 'OP' status. I'm still getting a good laugh out of all these people running around with heavy and AR and such equipped.. they will find out soon the mistake they made. The lads above have the right idea. As stated right now the heavy has an advantage but once the assault guys start leveling into armour and shield skills instead of weapons the balance will come back and we'll have to fight on our own turf, as well as try and find the ISK to fund our heavy fettish. Also there will be other factors which will open up the field such as the sorta recent laser rifles that outrange the HMG effective range by a mile and the new Scrambler rifle, which I think might be more of a battle rifle type weapon (if such a class exists in the distant future). One of the things I really like about Dust is the fact that it is different from other shooters. You need to be good and know what you're doing, if you poorly loadout a fit most likely you will die... repeatedly and if you load a fit well you'll do better and die... less. As much as I want the game to be balanced I don't want it to be some grey papy feel good shooter where we don't keep score so nobody is a loser (sorry I digress). So now and again as in EVE someone comes up with a new and ingenious way to exploit a class/ weapon/ vehicle or system to gain an advantage over his or her opponents and it comes down to us to counter it. My own battle was with the missle tanks before they got nerfhammered back to the primordial ooze, I did't QQ or moan I found out that my AV fit was a 1 way ticket so I dropped all shield, armour and repper modules on my Heavy A suit in favour of complex damage mods, CPU boosters and the stamina boosters (can't remember what they were called) picked up an assault FG and got on with it. My KDR was shot to hell but I was able to take out tanks again which was what mattered to me. We are very lucky to have so much input into the game as we have and for those who don't like the game or where it's going I don't suppose they're being forced to play it. There you have it I said my bit and the trolls may have it I'm off to dinner gota fill out this Fatman suit I think a baby hippo should do for starters Regards Snag
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2013.01.21 17:38:00 - [34] - Quote Heavies are OP for the same reason lasers are OP: everybody thinks they should be able to take them on at their optimum range with their AR.
trollolollo man Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 24	Posted - 2013.01.21 17:49:00 - [35] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Heavies are OP for the same reason lasers are OP: everybody thinks they should be able to take them on at their optimum range with their AR.
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 24	Posted - 2013.01.22 08:51:00 - [36] - Quote I'm a logi medic, tier 1 shotgun. 3 rounds to any heavies backside. I win, nuff said.
Polish Hammer Conspiratus Immortalis 300	Posted - 2013.01.27 19:06:00 - [37] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Polish Hammer wrote: I think the real point here is that the idea of a nerf to heavies is completely idiotic and should be viewed as such. As Stinker Butt has stated above, there are a few trolls that as of late have been crying about having heavies nerfed when in all practicality if they took a hit from the "nerfhammer" they'd never be used again. I'm sick and tired of hearing about this. They don't need a nerf. End of story. Stop QQing about them. Stop getting into close quarters with them. Stop trying to 1v1 them. Stop playing poorly and think about what you're doing. I'm not trying to insult anyone in saying this but it's gotten a bit out of hand. There are only a select few people that have been crying about heavies and they seem to be the proverbial empty cans that are rattling the loudest. Pretty much. Although in all fairness the OP wasn't here for the old AR sights so he's only looking at heavies right now. His post was well thought out and was an attempt at constructive posting about an issue he saw with the game. Welcome to the minority, OP. Make more posts like this and the forums will be better for it. Unfortunately this 'issue' has been something that a lot of us (both heavies and players in general) are just tired of hearing. This and Forge Guns being OP because they can OHK any infantry unit have just been beaten to death and we've all moved on. Keep up the good posting though, merc. Welcome to the war. Oh I have been here since last June, I just switched this to my main so that I could get a proper heavy going
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 433	Posted - 2013.01.27 19:35:00 - [38] - Quote i didnt read much except it looked like a nerf heavy post which i solo them all the time with AR or mass driver. if you do get your nerf then there wont be as many easy kills. out of every 10 heavies theres maybe 2 that are an actual threat. maybe you spent your points wrong or are just not the right counter to a heavy or are fighting them on their terms.
Cosorvin DUST University Ivy League 45	Posted - 2013.01.27 20:31:00 - [39] - Quote beg your pardon but anyone can rip through frontline AR/ militia people (which is the HUGE majority of the game as I have seen rarely anyone outside of that armour save for the minority of heavies.) And your logic is absurd, restricting heavies from vehicles? unbelievable, the heavy is fine the way it is don't touch my baby.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2013.01.27 22:11:00 - [40] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Was going to troll. not worth it. You're seeing the opposite end of the heavy issue before the reset. before the reset heavies were an absolute joke. The proto VK.1 suits cost 250,000 and the weapons cost 100k each on heavies, and even with proto mods you didn't have much benefit over the type II suits, which you need level 2 amarr heavy suit skill for. Once your SP spike high heavies become less and less a threat as they are. But when everyone's in the level 1-3 dropsuits heavies have the advantage but do not benefit from the linear growth of the other suit types as far as suit tech goes. they seem OP now, but it'll level off sharply soon. The ones that remain lethal will be the ones who know how to deploy their heavies in ways that force everyone else to play to their strengths. But as far as heavies go, they'll pay 2-4 times what an assault will for fits, for not much greater advantage except in very specific circumstances, which heavies do their best to cause everyone to get sucked into. Oh my yes, these new berries do not even have a clue what it is they are asking for. Give it 2 months, and every Proto AR fit will start walking about with 650 EHP and without remorse shred heavies or any thing else in 30 rounds (1406.25 damage with max skills and no damage mods, that will give you the ability to kill us in 4-6 seconds even if you miss a couple rounds...) Even after this happens I am certain there will be a continued call for a heavy nerf until the DEV team actually hits us with one. Then the only thing that can be fielded is AR fit Shield Assault. For those of you who think that cant happen obviously were not playing back in September. Or even more recently as a member of a good corp match. Lets face it the Logi doesn't have enough base EHP to be an effective force multiplier. The Scout is about 30% slower then it should be. The Assault is OP, im fine with it being so, but come the fu*k on people. Look past your own shallow bias and smell the hypocrisy.



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