Thank you for the info. I couldnt try it out last night, didnt get enough time after downloading the new build. I get very distracted with so many active modules. After reading the post i think i will still keep my previous fittings with minor changes to the turrets. if railguns can shoot faster and unleash an extra shot in less time then i would also have to think about my drive-by strategies with the tortoise. How bad is the new MT forge gun?

Base damage 1200 and 3.5 charge time

Add in weapon lvl5 skill for extra damage and anyone who has gone infantry and skilled into weapons has a nice decent AV weapon

I expect them to be around alot more because ppl who run infanty already have weapon lvl5 for the extra damage and its a quick change at a supply depot or a quick spawn in a cheap AV fit

That would mean that i'm totally screwed if i end up going near Supply depots... With the skinweave heavy suit it should be even cheaper. I lost quite a lot of armor tanks, 3 surya's trying and testing out different loadouts. Hows the control for driving tho? I dont use a KBM so its not that precise.

English,

We had a squad in game vs Aldin in a Surya last night and he was tanking DPS just fine against 2 Militia Swarms and a Proto Swarm hitting multiple times at the same time. Granted when we finally were able to hit him with the a few in very close succession it forced him to fall back a bit but he was never really in ZOMG run mode.

There are likely still some deficiencies for lesser skilled tankers but based on what I saw with Aldin's Surya it is still pretty beast in the right hands and with the appropriate skills.


I would have like to have hit him with 2 or 3 proto swarms at a time to see the alpha impact but alas a couple of us, including myself, were AV gimps jumping into starter fits just to see what we could do in addition to one proto swarm..

Armor speed got nerfed again this build IDK why tbqh
we already suffered movement penalty for adding plates and now the penalty got INCREASED?

seems like every build i gotta redo armor tanking and adapt
certainly does seem CCP wants armor to camp up on hillsides miles away from the objective and tbqh that aint my style i like to support my infantry and with suryas gettin a bonus to blasters WHY would i want to stay miles away and camp when i could be directly supporting infantry?

still playin around with my armor fits on my madrugar.....dont feel like callin in my suryas to get hit by lolswarms especially since it seems once ur caught in the open u'll take ages to move to a safe zone

I didn't understand why they made the armor tank - which is extremely slow - have the short range gun bonuses.. Where the fast tank has the long range gun bonuses... seems counterintuitive.

Armor speed got nerfed again this build IDK why tbqh
we already suffered movement penalty for adding plates and now the penalty got INCREASED?

seems like every build i gotta redo armor tanking and adapt
certainly does seem CCP wants armor to camp up on hillsides miles away from the objective and tbqh that aint my style i like to support my infantry and with suryas gettin a bonus to blasters WHY would i want to stay miles away and camp when i could be directly supporting infantry?

still playin around with my armor fits on my madrugar.....dont feel like callin in my suryas to get hit by lolswarms especially since it seems once ur caught in the open u'll take ages to move to a safe zone

I tested mine of the 3pt bowl map

I did have like 6ppl all with swarms no forge guns shooting at me and it was a mixture of milita/advanced and 1 proto swarm

I had a DC on and all 3 armor resists on and the armor rep and i got caught mainly because i couldnt move fast enough

Also my skill are perfect that i know of for all tanks i just decided to throw it into the lions den to test it out with the new mods on and i really wasnt impressed with it, i could have played super careful but it needed to be tested and as a tank it didnt feel like a tank still

Also tho did he change his tank in anyway? was he using the new mods? what map was he on and what was he doing with his tank? tbh your telling me a story but as far as i know he was be careful with it and it had a 10k armor tank on it with a spider tanking lav or guys with reppers

Telling me half the story tbh

i guess the thought process is for armor to advance with infantry and sit on a point and be able to soak up a ton of punishment
but thing is very few tankers even play like that

and last time i tested the active nos boosts it really didnt help that much so unless those got a buff backin out of a tricky situation is gonna be slower and more risky

[quote=Jaiden Longshot]English,

We had a squad in game vs Aldin in a Surya... (stuff)
I tested mine of the 3pt bowl map

I did have like 6ppl all with swarms no forge guns shooting at me and it was a mixture of milita/advanced and 1 proto swarm

on AV:

i am not too worried about there being a militia forge. I skilled up the forge this build and if people like the forge they will spend some SP into it.

Having said that, I am not sure what the point of swarms are. I havent used them since the E3 (I think, the vehicle spam one) build and just started to skill into them now at Level 4. They dont seem as balanced as in that build (as in worse) they act more as denial of area weapon - your thoughts?

Have missile turrets been buffed to be useable at all?

I tested mine of the 3pt bowl map

I did have like 6ppl all with swarms no forge guns shooting at me and it was a mixture of milita/advanced and 1 proto swarm

I had a DC on and all 3 armor resists on and the armor rep and i got caught mainly because i couldnt move fast enough

Also my skill are perfect that i know of for all tanks i just decided to throw it into the lions den to test it out with the new mods on and i really wasnt impressed with it, i could have played super careful but it needed to be tested and as a tank it didnt feel like a tank still

Also tho did he change his tank in anyway? was he using the new mods? what map was he on and what was he doing with his tank? tbh your telling me a story but as far as i know he was be careful with it and it had a 10k armor tank on it with a spider tanking lav or guys with reppers

Telling me half the story tbh

That's what i prefer doing too. But as i mentioned earlier, Blue dots rarely use that to their advantage.

on AV:

i am not too worried about there being a militia forge. I skilled up the forge this build and if people like the forge they will spend some SP into it.

Having said that, I am not sure what the point of swarms are. I havent used them since the E3 (I think, the vehicle spam one) build and just started to skill into them now at Level 4. They dont seem as balanced as in that build (as in worse) they act more as denial of area weapon - your thoughts?

Have missile turrets been buffed to be useable at all?

Couldn't tell you how he was fit other than it was a blaster fit Surya with either active reppers or minor logi support. I didn't see anything that would support spider tanking.

It was the 4 Point map that we've had in most of the builds with A & B on the attacker side and C & D under the covered structures and piping over A & B. He brought the blaster fit Surya up under the pipes and just beyond the building by A so essentially he was almost pushing the red line when we got some elevation to the right of 'A' just on the attacker side of the buidling when we started hitting him with the swarms.

He did have AR support that wouldn't let us continue chasing him after the first two sets of volleys.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that tanks are OP or anything. Frankly, I'm tired of nerfs when we have very little organized large scale battle data with logi support to determine what is or isn't OP. I'm just saying that a good tanker is a good tanker and currently they can survive a decent amount of DPS in the right hands, as they should.

Is it balanced with the replacement cost....errr, that's something that you, Alldin and Slap26 could comment on better than I could.

Can you sit out in the open and tank 6 swarmers hitting you at the same time? Probably not....but should that be feasible?

4pt map quite big a few places where you are safe aslong as you control the map or have a gd hand on it

Sounds like he would have some good cover if im thinking where he was at

Im guessing his fit is about 2.1mil give or take, now my fit is around that mark also and the ability to tank 6 swarms with a 2.1mil fit is unbalanced because for that amount of ISK it should be able to tank a bit but tbh it didnt, really the hull are too expensive but during the half price vehicle thingy it felt around right HAVs being 600k and i did see more tanks about because more ppl could afford to run them and risk them a little bit

A tank is ther to take damage from various sources but frankly it didnt, tanks are missing that tank ability in my view and the cost isnt really worth it

Very true. I would use a blaster all the time. It brings me closer to the enemy. But swarms mostly being able to lock on behind covers and jumping and shooting rockets (Militia or upper tier) and forge guns doing more damage than railguns, i dont know if i would want to risk the hard earned 2mil + tanks. the payout is just not good enough. If i loose one, it would take me 10 matches to cover up the loss if i (given i run militia gear)

Just my opinion but it feels like CCP is still trying to find the balance between a tanking fit and a DPS fit. Generally speaking you would expect a tank to well "tank" but my guess is they are trying to strike the balance between an alpha DPS tank and an active/passive tank with less alpha DPS.

This way you have tanks fit for anti-infantry with a little better tanking but not capable of that crazy alpha DPS or you have that crazy alpha DPS for AV and tank v tank while sacrificing a little of the active/passive tanking ability.


Similar to what infantry has to deal with from a fitting perspective. This way tanks do need some kind of support be it logi or infantry rather than a one man wrecking crew just with the primary turret dealing DPS and actively/passively tanking any DPS that is thrown its way.

Now you factor in the cost and it creates a whole new balance issue. In some respects I feel bad for tankers because it is a long train (I did it last build)....and it is extremely costly to drop tanks. I feel a little less sympathy when getting pwned in public matches when it is a little difficult to organize a proper counter. Not an easy balancing act, to be sure.

Look at the result of the AR changes. It makes very little sense to use Prototype or advanced gear now that you get very similar performance from standard gear....unless you are just bathing in ISK

Its AV right now, swarms need to be fixed which annoys armor tanks so much more and also but i dunno if CCP will do this but a handheld railgun cannot be stronger than a large vehicle mounted railgun

Also maybe make tanks have a bit more base hp so battles are a little bit longer but if not maybe make a 4man tank driver and 3 gunners and make that the price that tanks are now and drop the 3man tank to half price

I haven't agreed with a lot of what you've said in the past here, but this makes the most sense to me. The Forges doing more damages than another tank mounted LARGE TURRET can do is not right. Modded tanks being 2 hit killed by a single infantry at range that can hide is not balance in any capacity, no matter how you try to twist it. I'm not a tanker and can understand that.

I really like your idea regarding 4 man tanks.. with driver activating mods and driving but having no attack power from the driver seat. We have 4 man squads afterall. The big drawbacki see with this, is we already have limited troops on the field. You've basically just tied up 25% of the entire team into 1 tank. Now, were the maps 24 x 24 or 32 x 32... it would seem more logical.

what penalty do shield extenders have?
because im trying to figure out the thought process in increasing the movement penalty for plates on armor tanks

i heard that they make your sig profile bigger..

what penalty do shield extenders have?
because im trying to figure out the thought process in increasing the movement penalty for plates on armor tanks

Its how it works in EVE 'increase sig'

In DUST i cant really see how it will help, unless it makes you show on the radar from further away

exactly i know what it does in EVE but to apply this same penalty on a FPS is dumb imho
its not a big deal or as drastic as movement changes when someone can simply bring up the tactical map and see where u are there is no real penalty atm to shield extenders on tanks

Update 2 - Back to basics

Yday i threw a shedload of tanks into the matches i played and alot were experimental fits with variuos mods and fittings and it included Sagaris and Gunlogis and they mostly all got popped for various reasons mainly because i went gunho as in go to objectives and put it into the lions den and basically go after tanks or take a wrong turn


Now for me 2 things have changed with the new 3 point map and installations ther is more cover at the letters but also less of it due to the installations wiping lots of rocks and plus the movement of the redlines means you can go around the map on the roads and not hit a redline so tanks really have to go to there spawn if getting hit hard but the problem is if the route to the spawn is open you will get hit. In general this map has had me change my tank and playstyle, snake hill exists but no longer is it that 1 hill you can sit upon like a king because you can now go up both roads on either side because none of it is in the redline and the installations also play apart

The 4pt map has installations moved about but in general because of the hills and structures AV always have the higher ground so really ther is no change than from before


Now yday i prob spent 5mil on fittings and prob lost close to 10mil in assets already owned in shield tanks and various mods some of which dont exist anymore

The mods which dont exist happened to be the ones i used, they has slightly less PG (around 40) and they were very useful for squeezing out the best for your tank so you could have a good gun and a half decent tank. Now ther is only 3 mods which include a very high PG shield extender/booster which also gives crap HP because the one below that in PG gives the max HP an extender/booster can give then if you need to save around 100 PG then the very last mod is needed but it gives **** HP and reps tbh

It seems now that with the removal of these mods they are forcing you to go all tank or sacrifice some tank for more gank and if you go all gank expect a paper tank even more so but also its because of the turrets i use

With the turrets i use which are mainly hybrids you will consistanly be trying to squeeze extra PG out of everything it seems and this is because the Gunlogi and Sagaris is made for the missile turrets which consume less PG overall but even with that as a fact the top proto missile turret uses around 1000PG and the top railgun is near 1100 PG and the top blaster is 1200 (this is based on turrets i use) but even with the top missile turret you need a PG extender or PDU unless you sacrifice some tank or the main weapon

Btw i tried out a Gunlogi with all missiles and it couldnt kill someone 50m away next to a massive wall and they just walk away and they still have random missile spread and a awful range cap

Back to the turrets, because i use hybrids im always out of whack with PG, even with the 1st blaster it costs 1000PG which is more than the top missile turret and because missiles are useless i have to use hybrids and because of the new maps im finding im not using railguns anymore tbh and im going the blaster fit more often

The railgun fit is nearly dead for me, i do have one fit left for it but im still not sure where i should go with it, extra damage mods are iffy and the new turret upgrades are yummy for it but im finding that blaster is needed more because at least i can engage up close, with a railgun im a sitting duck and not the kind on my hill since that has gone i find it to be a bit more risky


As for the tanks i decided to make copys of all of my tanks in the Gunlogi and i often found that the difference in shield is around 1000 to a max 1500 which you may think is alot but to put it into perspective a milita forge gun does 1200 DPS and if it hits me cold becauses he hiding behind something then that advantage is lost quickly, its still an advanatge but its an expenisve one as you will see

For the 1.2mil Sagaris hull price tag i am gaining 1000-1500 shield max and including fittings it tends to rise to 2mil where as the Gunlogi is 1mil or sometimes even lower because im forced to use diff mods. I even have a Gunlogi fit which costs me around 550k including fittings and with this fit i can field 2 to 1 Sagaris hull and if i also include fittings for the Sagaris then its 3-4 Gunlogis and they all include the fitting mods and weapons aswell

Basically for the price of a Sagaris and mods its not worth it anymore, the last few games i was rolling out last night was Gunlogis because i could afford to lose 2-3 if i really went gung ho and depending how well i did i was making 300k and not losing my tank but yet still earning the ISK equivelent of the Gunlogi and fittings. With a sagaris i can do this but if i lose it that is 2mil down the shitter compared to 550k Gunlogi or a 700k Gunlogi

For the diffrence between the Gunlogi and the Sagaris to put it simply 'the price is too damn high' and during the vehicle half price week the Sagaris at around 600k was about right for what it can do, maybe even 500k is better because from 200k to 1.2mil the difference of that extra slot is kinda of ****


Cont next post

As for AV ther has been a marked increase in forge gun activity for me, i am seeing more milita forges about and ppl killing other ppl with them just fine. Im also sure dark cloud and his 3man LAV crew attacked me a few times with milita forges against my Sagaris and tbh they wrecked the ever loving **** out of it and nearly popped it on 2-3 occasions in the same match and basically scared the **** out of the tank so much i didnt really play in the rest of the match because if i strayed to far out and they hit me in open space i would be dead, the red line saved me tbh

The forge gun in general does more damage than a large vehicle mounted railgun which requires far more PG to use, if its that powerful the heavy should fly backwards after firing the damn thing tbh - this will continue to **** me off

Swarms are still annoying and still travel aroud corners, its got even worse i have missiles hitting me around corners but i do not see them, they are invisable missiles which bend around corners and thats even worse but its rare i have to say


Armor tanks i still havnt touched, i find them still too slow and they are now turning into installations but maybe i will give it a shot in the Maruders like i have done in the gunlogis im looking to find something good in the armor tanks but i still havnt seen it

The bonus in the Surya to blasters is becoming more lol worthy due to the fact blasters are for up close and it takes an ice age to get ther and you cant tank a worth of **** these days and if you have to GTFO of ther you would be better of calling for a tow truck


Tank vs tank i was able to do a little bit, in a 2v1 against me i took out a Sagaris before getting popped, took out a couple of other T1 tanks and milita, overall it seems to have changed how i battle tanks espc with what fits i use and what map i happen to be on.


The general CPU nerf and removal of certain mods has ****** up various fits i used to roll with, along with map variations we are seeing it has forced me to completely look at all the tank fits that i made yday and lost yday, i currently have 4 fits for the Gunlogi and Sagaris and they are mirror images of each other except 4 are cheaper. The maps has also have changed my playstyle and what i bring out and how i use them and fight other tanks

This build has made me overhaul all my fits but it may have also stopped me from using proto tanks due to the sheer price tags they have while AV is just still as deadly with next to no SP/ISK required


Yday i did feel like vehicles were slowly getting patched out with the removal of certain mods, reduction in CPU, nerfing of turret damage, armor plate movement nerf and the addition of the milita forge gun, tbh i did see less tanks about and also from players who i know do tend to run tanks and would bring out thers to battle mine but it didnt happen as much or at all

Time will tell on this one and im still on the fence after my 1st impressions of it all

Swarms are BRILLIANT against armour (bonus damage), but if the enemy has decent shields, they're not going to hurt much without help. Flux Grenades, Laser Rifles, Forge Guns, a friendly HAV, whatever you can get to strip the shields.

Once the shields are low, start with Swarms, and the target falls apart fast.

Militia Forge Gun is fine, imo. Doesn't cost significantly less than standard, has higher fitting requirements, and there's no blueprint. The only thing that would have worried me is the blueprint. If that happened, then yeah, there would be problems with the Militia Forge Gun.

As it stands, a lone player with a Militia Forge Gun isn't a credible threat even against a Militia HAV with only the driver in it. I think that's fair.

Snake,

What kind of KDR and WP's are you putting up since the changes? Is

It almost sounds like what they did is similar to the weapon changes with it not being very efficient to use higher meta level gear / hulls.

That and I still stand by the idea that they want the vehicles closer to EvE forcing the player to choose between a tank or a DPS fit. As in most MMO's, you are better off min / maxing but it is possible to field a balanced fit if you don't mind being at a slight disadvantage on one side when you run up against a min / maxer.

I am curious if you are seeing a drop off in your KDR and WP's or if you just feel that hasn't changed much but you die more often and you are better off in cheaper hull and fits?

Couldnt agree with the Militia forge gun. It does 1200 Dmg without skills, with the bpo Heavy Skinweave suit it doesnt cost that much to use it. Add a few AV nades and then a single MT Forge gunner can eat a sica or soma and walk away. Compare the cost of a MT tank and MT Forge. Is it fair?

It could do some serious damage to other tanks too with less skill requirements. Spcially those suicide missions could be very deadly if the tanker is caught in a bad place.

You can suicide with an assault forge gun in BPO suits and milita mods still with flux nades and a BPO LAV not too mention crash the LAV into the tank to do upto 2k of damage to its shield/armor

AV have all the options

I did not spec into Shield tanks so i'm **** out of luck when they try to do that to me. If i'm close to base i can survive, but other than that i'm just relying on my guns and shooting tactics. Trying to move away with an armor tank is the same as "going to a different place and dieying" LOL

Flux do crazy damage to shield tanks and AV nades do some sever damage to Armor/Shield. I lost my tank to a sub machine gun once. I know he had the lucky shot at the end. But the idea that a sub machine gun doing damage to an armor tank baffles me. They should tweak the tank settings by giving some extra base health (Shield/Armor) or allow us to add more health.

Couldnt agree with the Militia forge gun. It does 1200 Dmg without skills, with the bpo Heavy Skinweave suit it doesnt cost that much to use it. Add a few AV nades and then a single MT Forge gunner can eat a sica or soma and walk away. Compare the cost of a MT tank and MT Forge. Is it fair?

It could do some serious damage to other tanks too with less skill requirements. Spcially those suicide missions could be very deadly if the tanker is caught in a bad place.

So look at the difference in cost to do the same thing with a Standard Forge Gun instead of Militia?

One level of Forge Ops = 12,440 SP

Standard Forge Gun is 8,800 ISK

Either way you're saying you need AV nades, which are an additional cost (in both SP and ISK).

The Militia Forge is cheap, but unless it's supported by the skills the Standard FG requires, it falls behind in effectiveness.

Also, the slow reload of the weapon in general, combined with the fact that the Militia Forge has to reload more often, means more missed opportunities when that HAV runs while you're reloading, and comes back 20 seconds later with full shields and armour, and you're still at half armour and no shields.

its pretty damn hard to stay alive in an armor tank these days, turns like a whale and takes off like a slug even with a fusion accelerator, I've started using the gunnlogi more since the patch because its so zippy and can turn, that and just about everyone has a semi decent swarm launcher and they are absolutely devastating to armor tanks.

But i really really want to drive armor tanks, they have more HPs, rep more, you've got lots of room for dmg mods and heatsinks while still fitting a decent tank, I could live with the armor tanks taking off slowly if they could turn a bit faster.

Snake,

What kind of KDR and WP's are you putting up since the changes? Is

It almost sounds like what they did is similar to the weapon changes with it not being very efficient to use higher meta level gear / hulls.

That and I still stand by the idea that they want the vehicles closer to EvE forcing the player to choose between a tank or a DPS fit. As in most MMO's, you are better off min / maxing but it is possible to field a balanced fit if you don't mind being at a slight disadvantage on one side when you run up against a min / maxer.

I am curious if you are seeing a drop off in your KDR and WP's or if you just feel that hasn't changed much but you die more often and you are better off in cheaper hull and fits?

So i had a surya, i added on the new active armor resistance mods which do 25% resist to all damage for 60sec and cooldown for 15sec stacking penaties apply so really i would have around 45% at least sounds good right? right?

So i fit 3 of them on with a top armor plate and a heavy repper, also a damage control unit which is now active 30sec on 30sec off and a shield booster small for some reason because i can fit it lol and a i think i had top blaster and small blasters

Overall i have 6mods to activate, the new active resists IMHO seemed crap prob because swarms still have that extra 30% damage and i did run 2 and all 3 at one time and swarms still kicked my arse, the heavy repper didnt rep any faster or activate any quicker and the DC mod i forgot about because its active and im trying to keep other things going on all while im driving and trying to avoid AV. The armor tank still was slow as **** and took an ice age to move and with the resists going it didnt seem to help

I had a 7.5K armor tank with 3 resists and 1 repper, i used to run a 10+k armor tank with 1 repper and i felt that was able to tank more but also its about using it right and tbh i did sort of throw it out ther to test what it could take on a new map which was more of sniper/swarm heaven and was shaped like a bowl so prob not the best map but i need to see it in action. You sacrifice the tank for active resists but either way it seems that you still dont win because the tank itself is slow and heavy and swarms still hit very hard not too mention your sitting duck for everything as it is

-Take off the third hardener and add a Local Powergrid Expansion Unit.
-Add a Speed Boost on the high slot
-Add the 400+ HP Armor Repper
-Keep proto blaster or try to fit a stabalized for range

A little rushed the post, am in-game.

Speed boost doesnt work last time i tried it, did they fix it? and also if they did how is it on acc and top speed?

It does give u a boost compared to how slow it is without it
im basically forced to have all my armor fits with them now

I might try it on my Gunlogi fit lol see how far it can get before OP swarms/forges pop me

I only use the 1 Gunlogi fit anymore because i refuse to field anymore expensive fits, i threw 6 gunlogis at meodes sagaris last night and eventually got it with help from an OB

Im close to giving it up with tanks its always 1 step forward 3 steps back and they are a waste of ISK/time and SP atm